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 Post subject: Zyhydro
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:40 pm 
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I just read an interesting article. Four companies are developing hydrocodone time release without apap. Essentially it will be just like oxycotin but will release hydrocodone instead of oxycodone. Of course this article was saying how dangerous this is and will create addicts. The other side to this is that people addicted to hydro wouldn't have to ingest all that dangerous tylenol. What do you guys think?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:40 pm 
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I just read that article to. I think they need to fing stronger meds to help with pain. They will script lortabs for people in lots of pain and we end up taking 3 or 4 at a time to get relief. This way maybe 1 will do what it is suppose to every 4 toi 6 hours. I know the meds they were giving me were not strong enough. I think if I was giving a pill that was strong enough then I would not have to take a hand full at a time and run out. Just my thought Not sure how it would turn out.

I do have a question????
I have very bad pain some days subs do help most days but not all!!!!! Is it possible to take a pain medicine with subs for break through pain???? Would a doctor do that??? I have been taking a oxycodone for break through pain and it has really helped my pain and I'm not wanting more I just think it would help alot to have that as needed for pain when subs don't help. My mom,dad and uncle live across the street and they all have medicine. If I'm really hurting I can get it. The good things is I'm not abusing it. I've turned them down plenty of times I've only do it when I felt like I was hurting si bad I could not take it.
thanks
Mel :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:11 am 
This is actually an anti-abuse measure, just like they did with Oxy.

No addict is gonna want this shit if you can't rub the time release off.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:44 am 
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For the non-addict pain patient, Zohydro will be great.

For all the addicts out there, Zohydro will be a curse. I don't care what kind of safeguards they put in place to stop someone from releasing all the Hydrocodone at once, we addicts will find a way around it.

The latest and greatest form of OxyContin (the gum like shit) has already been "hacked", there are at least two effective methods of defeating the gummy binder, leaving the user with pure dope.....Zohydro will be the same.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:05 am 
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meltalk wrote:
I do have a question????
I have very bad pain some days subs do help most days but not all!!!!! Is it possible to take a pain medicine with subs for break through pain???? Would a doctor do that??? I have been taking a oxycodone for break through pain and it has really helped my pain and I'm not wanting more I just think it would help alot to have that as needed for pain when subs don't help. My mom,dad and uncle live across the street and they all have medicine. If I'm really hurting I can get it. The good things is I'm not abusing it. I've turned them down plenty of times I've only do it when I felt like I was hurting si bad I could not take it.
thanks
Mel :wink:


Am I to understand that you are currently taking oxy along with your suboxone for break through pain? How long have you been doing this - Mixing sub with a full agonist? Or am I totally missing something here and have it wrong?

I can tell you this, the one kind of pain med you CAN use with suboxone (NOT A FULL OPIATE AGONIST!!) is ultram (or of course muscle relaxers).

Maybe you can clarify and I just misunderstood what you wrote.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:14 pm 
It is possible to take full agonists with buprenorphine as Mel is stating she has, as in it's not going to cause precipitated withdrawal or anything....Is it the best 'recovery move?" To me, no. Full agonists are not going to be very effective in small doses, so taking 5-10mg of Oxycodone isn't going to break through the buprenorphine, the APAP if she is taking percocet is going to be much more effective than the Oxycodone!

I seem to remember Dr. J. posting an article at one point about transdermal buprenorphine and transdermal fentanyl used together with the idea that analgesia could be attained without euphoria. Is this method tried an true....Not that I know of.

I do know ONE person who was prescribed Norco 10's and was allowed to take 3 PRN breakthrough pain with Suboxone....The Suboxone dose was relitively low, though (2-4mg), so that is probably a different story...

-Travis


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:50 pm 
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Oh it's absolutely possible to take them together and in fact, in some circumstances when dealing w/ acute pain it's actually recommended to combine the two, but I was speaking as it relates to using it for chronic pain purposes mixed with sub maintenance (the way the poster appears to be using them). Then I asked for further clarification.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:28 pm 
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This shit is stupid just like the oxy shit. This will only make drug addiction worst. Do u know how many people are now shooting heroin bc of that new oxycontin.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:34 pm 
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Yes, I have taken 4 percocet 10mg in the last 3 weeks. I have been in terrible pain and it has helped at the time of taken them. I almost went to the ER last night I can not sleep arm is numb dull pain, I can not grab sqeeze or hold anything. I will go tonight if it continues. I know it is not the right thing to do but I'm in so much pain all I can do is cry. I had surgery for this 1 year ago and it felled. Nerve damage and I know something else must be going on.

I was asking if they have doctors that do prescibe opiates while you are on suboxone??? I don't know what else to do?? Subs are not cutting it for me at this time. The thing I have noticed is that I do not go looking for more I have taken it and it has helped and I'm ok with that. My uncle ask me often if I need more "NO" I don't. So, I just don't know what to do. I will go to the ER tonight if it hurts like it did last night. Not sure if it is the weather or if the condition is just getting worst.
Mel :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:00 am 
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I’m sorry but I don’t think you will find a suboxone Dr who will prescribe you suboxone and pain killers. That defeats the whole purpose of suboxone treatment. The only DR that would do this would be a pain management Dr BUT from my personal experience I have not taken to one single pain doc who is for suboxone. Most despise it because they are losing patients to suboxone DR left and right.

I have a suggestion but you might not be for it. Methadone would be a great option for you, no more pain killers and you could continue your recovery without pain. It works great for my pain I wasted 5 years chasing pain control on suboxone. But all it took was 4 weeks of methadone treatment to no longer be in terrible pain nonstop. I no longer dread waking up because of what kind of pain I might be in that day. And I cannot even begin to tell you how much my stress levels have gone down since getting actual pain relief.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:08 am 
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Like I said above, the ONE pain med that CAN be coupled with suboxone is ULTRAM/TRAMADOL. Why not ask your doctor about that? You seemed to have skipped right over that part of my post. Did you miss it or is there a reason you'd rather take oxy than tramadol?

It's just like Bboy said, taking oxy PRN while on suboxone maintenance is defeating the purpose of your sub maintenance treatment.

Has your pain gotten worse recently (like since winter started) or has it been this bad since you've been on sub treatment? Have you spoken to your doctor about it? Are you trying other ways to treat that pain? You mentioned nerve pain - have you ever tried Lyrica or Neurontin or other meds such as those? There are other non-med routes to treat pain that you can still try. Some like to call them "alternative" methods, but they are still viable options.

Anyway, like I started out asking, if your pain has been this severe since you started suboxone, maybe Bboy is right. Perhaps methadone is something for you to explore. If your pain is that severe, methadone just might be your best option.

But do look into other things as well. Under the chronic pain section of the forum, there's a sticky post about self-hypnosis/guided imagery/meditation and how we can use it for pain relief and stress reduction/anxiety. I thought it was a bunch of shit myself, but w/ practice it really does work.

OK, I'm droned on for long enough. I just want you to know that you do have options. I'm in your shoes, albeit with less severe pain. But I do have bad days, like last night when all I wanted to do is cry because nothing seemed to help. But for me, it's not all that often. Please take care.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:47 pm 
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I have had a few bad days since on subs but nothing like lately. I'm on medicaid ONLY and I can NOT find a surgoen that takes adults!!! sad huh?? but true. So i will have to wait til Feb when my other insurance kicks it. I took some other meds last night and it did help me.
Mel :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:57 pm 
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meltalk wrote:
I have had a few bad days since on subs but nothing like lately. I'm on medicaid ONLY and I can NOT find a surgoen that takes adults!!! sad huh?? but true. So i will have to wait til Feb when my other insurance kicks it. I took some other meds last night and it did help me.
Mel :wink:



Hi, meltalk-

So sorry that you've been having such a difficult time with your severe pain.
I am also on just Medicaid. Luckily, you will be getting other insurance in February, right?

Have you read Hatmaker's post above your post yet? I believe that she has a few questions-
to get further clarification from you to- hopefully- try to help you.

Good luck!

-ex-



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:31 pm 
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Doesn't Ultram metabolize into an opiate after its first pass through the liver?? If it does, wouldn't Suboxone block most of its effects too?

I still don't understand this Ultram stuff that well. It's my understanding that it's not classified as an opiate because in its original state, it is not, but after first pass....it is?? Oh yeah, and it only gets metabolized into an opiate in some peoples bodies who possess some kind of certain enzyme in the liver??

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:34 pm 
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I don't get it either. I didn't even know people abused it prior to coming here. I have used it on and off for pain and have never had any type of good feeling from it besides easing the pain a bit. I guess I don't have the liver enzyme?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:02 pm 
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I just know it's the only pain med that can be used along with sub maintenance. A few people that are (or used to be) on the forum have supplemented their pain treatment plan with it. Personally, it's never done shit for me either. I guess I don't have the enzyme either.

The other thing about Ultram is one also has to be careful if they are also on SSRI's or other serotonin related-products (like St. John's wort). They can cause serotonin syndrome/storm (whatever it's called, I've heard both), because Ultram also effects serotonin levels in some way that I also can't adequately explain. Perhaps someone else can.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:18 am 
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I just got this article link in my e-mail from drugs.com-
about Zohydro:

http://www.drugs.com/news/new-painkille ... 35603.html

-ex-

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:17 pm 
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I have taken the oxy and subs and I did get lots of relief, it helped very well with the pain. I know it is not what I'm suppose to do but i did it. Today I was in pain but took motron 800 and a muscle relaxer and it did help.

I think we are lokking at this new drug from a abuser side It is a abuser website. I think we should also think that their are lots of others out there that NEED these meds to function and do not abuse them. I also think that the doctors do have some part in this addition. They know we will build up a tolerance and not want to increase dose so we run out and go looking elsewhere for more, I believe that is what happened in my case. I think if I would have gotten stronger medicine that last me my 4 hours or more then I dont know if I would have gotten addicted. I really hated taking them all the time. I also think they give us chronic pain patience bull shit lortabs for 6 years and except them to still work and they DO NOT!!! IMO They need better meds for some

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 Post subject: ahem
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:23 am 
meltalk wrote:
I think we are lokking at this new drug from a abuser side It is a abuser website.


I absolutely agree and think that a controlled release/high dose hydrocodone should have come out a long time ago as it did with morphine and oxycodone as I think it can be beneficial to a population of patients for whatever reason respond best to hydrocodone!

meltalk wrote:
I think we should also think that their are lots of others out there that NEED these meds to function and do not abuse them. I also think that the doctors do have some part in this addition. They know we will build up a tolerance and not want to increase dose so we run out and go looking elsewhere for more, I believe that is what happened in my case.


I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly back when I was in active addiction and a chronic pain patient receiving high dose opioids round-the-clock. I disagree today, however as a person in recovery on buprenorphine, in that opioids for chronic non-terminal pain is just NOT a realistic or productive long-term answer or solution.

Addicts cannot in my experience take opioids PRN for any length of time, and that's the only reasonable way opioids can be used IMO. As I've said many times before, I am in LESS pain today on just buprenorphine than I had when I was on hundreds of milligrams of both oxycodone and morphine daily. MY PAIN LESSENED when I finally stopped all the medications that I was told by multiple doctors I would have to be on for the rest of my life to function with my level of pain. An added bonus is that my life isn't chaos anymore, I don't have to rationalize and justify left and right either as I do when ‘my inner addict’ takes over.

If Dr’s subscribed to your philosophy of basically ‘give em what they want,’ they’d have a much bigger role in the addiction, as you say. Right now, it sounds like you’re upset and lashing out more or less because a Dr WOULDN’T fuel your addiction and demands/self-diagnosis’.

meltalk wrote:
I think if I would have gotten stronger medicine that last me my 4 hours or more then I dont know if I would have gotten addicted.


So, if you had an never-ending supply of ever-increasing strength opioids, you'd be fine? Right… You might be a zombie who has no concept of any pain, but how would the rest of your life be going do you think?

BTW, there are many, many options other than Lortabs, Vicodin, Norco, ANY of the low-dose hydrocodone/APAP combinations…So either Dr's didn't think you needed that level of opioid pain control or you were on one such as methadone/morphine/oxy CR/fentanyl/oxymorphone/etc and at some point switched/were switched to Suboxone.

I hope this post/reply doesn't offend you as I mean it in a loving, caring way and I wouldn't be an online friend if I didn't point out what I saw as junkie bullshit on an online addiction remission support thread/community.

Really, I hope you’ll be careful, You’re on Suboxone for a reason, you’re admittedly taking benzo’s and now opioids without your doctor knowing, using at least two doctors to do so, in my humble online dude opinion this whole scenario is total active addict behavior. Again, I’m not judging and mostly know it because I’ve also lived it.

When I feel as you do in terms of rationalizing taking prescription drugs, which I'd be lying if I said I sometimes didn't, I try to remember why I started with buprenorphine in the first place and remember truths about my many, many, many years love affair with opioids/pain management. Those realities, when HONESTLY looked at, have always kept me from falling back in the tornado. Best of luck in all you do!

-T


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:06 am 
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Speaking as someone who abused the snot out of his pain meds for 10 years (and experienced significant pain for the duration) and then went to Suboxone for 3 years (experiencing pain for the duration of that treatment too) and then got off of opiates and I now basically have no pain to speak of, I agree that long term opiate use to control pain is not the best option.

While on full agonists, I was CONVINCED I needed more and more opiates for pain relief AND to continue getting high.

While on Suboxone, I took as much as I could for pain relief AND to enjoy what crappy little buzz I got from Suboxone.

NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE could convince me that I didn't NEED some kind of narcotic pain med.

One of my greatest fears regarding coming off of Suboxone was what I was going to do about my pain, but I put that fear out of my head and quit Suboxone anyway.

These days, if I'm having a rough day where I've been on my feet all day at work, I take 2 Advil and the pain is gone. For the most part, I don't take anything.

BTW, my injuries were sustained in 1997 when I fell 25ft and crushed both ankles and broke my left arm. I was in a wheelchair for 4 months, I didn't start walking again until 5 months after the accident. By any measure, my injuries were pretty severe.

I'm NOT saying that everyone in pain is experiencing hyperalgesia like I did, but I'd be willing to bet there are plenty out there who are experiencing hyperalgesia or opiate induced hyperalgesia.

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