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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:58 am 
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You're doing such a great job!!! Keep up the good work!

Amy

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:11 pm 
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Thanks Everyone,

I am not through it yet, but I know that I am close.

I have reached that point, where I do not feel any effect from the dosing.

I am going on a holiday for a week, so I will post as soon and as much as I can, when i have any news at all.

Peace and love

Hopespring

p.s. I must admit, this is pretty exciting, I feel I am getting close to the lowest recorded dose here on the net.
If anyone knows, what the lowest documented stable dose is, i would love to hear.,
I still am having ultra slight hand RLS, for about 2 hours a day, but thats all that physcially happening to me.
My mood is stable, but will drop from now on, based on, how well I am sleeping.


Merry Xmas to all......


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:05 pm 
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Update:


Have been at .04 for a week or so, and am still trying to get used to this dose level.
Sleep has been a bit elusive for me, the past 2 days, been getting sleep at around 3-4 am, and waking up at 8am ish.

I know that I am not stable yet, @.04 mg so will keep trying to push through.
I am having no physical pai or symptoms, mood is great, and I feel great, it is just that annoying insomnia.

For anyone who is struggling, with sleep, let me just say, don;t flip around in bed like a fish., Get up, watch TV, and wait till sleep finds you, not the other way around. It does come, eventually.

I have been napping during day, when I get two or three days of 4-5 hours sleep, in a row, and that seems to keep me happy.

IMPORTANT DISCOVERY

Last week, I double diluted my liquid solution., ie. I doubled the amount of water, to make measuring easier.
BE prepared, as this does dramatically alter the bio-availabililty.

Which, of course I found out the hard way,...But the positive is, that this is like a blind taper, on top of a taper.
Tapering when you don;t even know it......lol

Anyway, sometimes, you just have to laugh, at yourself, for all the over thinking, and pre planning.
I caught myself, telling my partner, should i take a prophylactic dose (buiffer dose) of bupe, just in case I don;t sleep.

Let just say, after saying it, we had a good ol laugh. Now that is taking things too seriously.

Peace and love
Hopespring,

Will stay at .04 until sleep drop off gets a bit sweeter (easier)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:47 pm 
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Update

Finally stable at .04mg (40 micrograms)
It took for what seemed forever, about a couple of weeks, in reality.

I had about 4 nights of hard to drop off sleep.
I guess in part this was due, to altering the volume of water(doubling) in my taper solution.
Prob best to always keep the dosing solution the same concentration, unless you are prepared for a little extra reducing on your taper.

When times got hard during the tough nites, I would take a sliver of bupe powder, say .025mg.
To offset this, and to avoid going up in dose, I made sure, i punished myself. And by this, I dropped a further .01 mg every time I had to cut a slither.If I felt i did not to punish myself, I would either just allow one fuk up per week, or just take it off the dose the next day.

Anyway, we all have our own systems, and as long as they work. My thinking is that if i accidently drop too hard, a slither of bupe, applies just enough braking to the taper, to make the adjustment period, a bit easier, and a bit longer if needed.

I do not want to miss a whole nights sleep yet, as I am still tapering. I would not care, if I had stopped tapering, so it is important for me, to keep my sleep dropp off, pretty constant.

The Good News

What is truly important, is that when you drop a dose, like I did from say .07 to .04 mg, you just bear with it, until you get that feeling, and trust me, you know when it comes, and yuo know you feel 100% normal.

Just as I finally do now. Sometimes it is hard to see the end of a reduction, but there definately is a rythm to each drop, and i just can not tell yu how wonderful it is, when you reach baseline again, and your sleep returns, and even on waking, you fell pretty damn good.

Again, the further i am dropping, the fewer symptoms I am noticing.
I have even changed my dose to 50% at waking, and 50% 12 hours later.way.
Now the days are good, and so are the nights, well until the next drop, any

I am very happy at the moment, just finihed working hard, and will stay here for a few days and drop again.

What I think is amazing about this, is that I feel 10000% , and so far so good.
I hope to achieve a totally pain free, paws feree experience, that will help other members,

Research Update
Addiction now has a name: TLR4 (toll like receptor, 4)
A discovery was made 3 months ago, by a fellow Adelaidian , here in South Australia.
In short, they can now turn off addiction and tolerance, and offer pain relief via opiods, without addiction, by blocking a receptor called the TLR4 receptor.

patients in hospital can now recieve opiods, with this tlr4 antagonist, and never build tolerance or addiction.
Do a google search, if you have time.

And have a guess what the actual chemical is............
(+) naloxone (not to be confused with naloxone)
This is the unatural stereo isomer of naloxone.

The treatment, is not available yet, unless you can access (+) naloxone, or you know how to seperate racemic (mixed) naloxone.


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 Post subject: Jumped @ .04 !!!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:17 am 
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Went and saw an addiction specialist today, after finding one in my local area.
And I have decided to jump.

ALL MEDICATION HAS NOW BEEN FLUSHED

I just could not be F'd anymore doing the taper, as the lower I was getting, was causing slight sleep deprivation anyway.

So, decided to go for it. Plus I really, really,really, really, really want this all the be over, so i can go on my holiday overseas, and start living my life.
,
For all the fellow taperers, follwing this thread. as soon as I saw a doctor who was willing to help me without stigma in any way., I knew it was time to stop, each time i dropped at this dose, i ended up getting bad nights sleep anyway, so, really i had nothing to lose. It seems that at .04mg the effect is mostly subtle and most of all mental creations.

My worst ever symptoms over the whole 2.5 years have been slight to moerate RLS when dropping hard, and insomnia.
Mood changes were never experienced, and no insomnia occured until below .08 mg ish... After that, it became a somewhat boring adventure of late night/early morning MASH and Buck Rodgers.

So as to summarize tapering from 5 years @ 10mg to .05mgs, over 2.5 years, using a pretty straight line reduction.
It is totally possible, fun( i say being fuilly aware of totality of the experience) and productive.
It is possible for someone with ADHD, whilst tapering, follwing this method, to not only enjoy the experience, but also prosper, in life, and in work.

There is so much hope here, for people who feel trapped by bupe.
I have made over $35k (in the bank, starting with $100) whilst tapering off Bupe, using this method.
I started the business during my tapering.
Therefore this should serve to prove that slow tapering is eminently possible, without drawing attention to my shameful apparent boasting.



It has been a long 2.5 years, and today has finally come.
I will post all juicy details, of my recovery, plus much, much more...:) wink wink

dr has prescribed my temaz, norgesic and immodium, for the first round of treatment.

peace and love to all

HS


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:21 am 
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Congratulations on getting your dose SO low and jumping. Sometimes all the head games leading up to the jump are worse than the jump itself for people who taper.

I'm glad you got in with an addiction speacialist, that's a smart move. He/she should be able to help you with this next phase of recovery you're entering.

Best of luck to ya!!

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 Post subject: Would like to chime in
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:51 pm 
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Hi Hope, just now reading your post. You have been the main help to me on my last few posts just recently attempting the Liquid Method. Thank you again for your assistance. I see now why you have helped me so much how successful you are. Many blessings to you as you wrap this up.

I would like to ask you and any others here taking Subutex. I am currently at 1mg but trying to get below this. I tried the other night liquid but for me, not sure if it was the type of pill I use or what, but could barely tell a difference from regular water. So many others (Diary of Quitter) for example said they felt the dose more using liquid, I could not see any change from regular water so got freaked out and went back to my pill form.

I am at a real quandry now. My pill is Subutex, Not Suboxone. My are does not provide .4 pills nor does it allow us to get the great tabs unless you use Suboxone which has that extra drug nalexone in it.

Unfortunately, I do not feel comfortable now at 1mg Subutex to go to Suboxone adding in anotehr drug but the thought of getting hold of the tabs is very tempting. If this liquid method doesnt resolved itself, I can't figure out a way to evenly cut my pills.

I can get them reasonably in 4 separate .5 doses (cut my pill 4 ways using a stand alone razor blade) but when I try to cut a .5 to .25 it goes to dust.

What can I do at this point to get to .8? I so want to taper SLOWLY and at small increments. I could just drop my .5 dose and go with 1x a day dosing but that is going from 1.0mg to .5 and also (for me) I need the 2x a day because I also experience difficulty later in day and the afternoon dose really makes a differnce despite how small.

My question is would it make sense (for me) to go with the Suboxone Tabs now or would that hurt my taper? I do NOT want more withdrawal and more side affects. Remember I using Subutex now which is only the Bup but without a viable way to get past .5 quarters I dont know how to cut these accurately.

If I moved to Suboxone (which my doc is glad to do) I just am scared adding in Nalexone at this late junctor would add in another drug to withdrwal from, more side affects?

The tabs would certainly allow me to cut all the way down and then I could do it slowly like I want.

I feel it will be smooth if I could go .01 or .02 mg at a time but with the pills I have (small, round, hard) I can't get a reasonble cut beyond 4 quarters (.5 each)?

Hope, I know you offered your suggestions to the Liquid but (to me) it was more than 30% reduction in weakness...it didnt sooth me at all and (to me) at .4 I should have been able to sleep and couldnt.

Anyway, any suggestions to those using Subutex how to get more accurate dosing after .5 ???? Where I live (and I think everywhere) we cannot get anything less than 2mg pills and can't get tabs either? This totally screws those of us serious about tapering.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:02 pm 
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Hope - congrats on jumping! I had a feeling you'd run out of patience before you got down to a microgram and eventually just decide you were done! Good for you, I doubt you'll have much trouble at all. I stopped at .05mg and it was no harder than any part of the taper. You may get a little anxious and have trouble sleeping for a while, but I doubt it'll be too bad. Keep us posted!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:54 pm 
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Hi Guys

Romeo: Yeah, i agree, I feel so relieved to have actually made the decision,. It really felt like I was at the end, as i approached .04 mg anyway.

My sleep was all over the place, and for all intensive purposes, I was in Wd anyway, so why do it half assed.

I had this pact with myself, that if I did not get sleep for a while while tapering, then, there was no point to tapering. etc.
The doc agreed that in his exp, people that go this low, seem to share, what i am feeling.
The medicine ceases to become effective, and it feels like every time you dose, you pay for it the next day, almost like using.
So it seems just the right time to end this B.S.

Karen:

Karen, when I was at 1mg, I was having the time of my life, as I feel so should you.
I would wait till your comfortable, and then hit .8mg, and stay there for sewveral months, and repeat.

If time is no issue for you, this can be painless.
Slow down your taper, if you are struggling. Just slow it right down, and use your feelings, as a guide.
Also consider getting a SSRI, (antidepressant) to allieve some of the these mental blocks and fears.

Hang in there, i was on Subutex too, but was not on the 8mg, just the .4mg.
Truth be known, it is just a bitch to regulate doses on the microgram level, using such raw tools.
So I don't blame you Karen for finding it hard.
But Karen, it is possible, and do-able.

It still feels lilke this is alot to do with your fear karen, and not really a medication issue. But this is life, and we are human after all.
If you just cannot get a liquid dose to work, go suboxone, and again, don;t worry about the naloxone.
It does not make any difference physically. And nor should it mentally, despite what alot of people say.

Before you give up on the liquid Karen, why not find a liquid dose that does help you. And then decrease from there?
Otherwise go the film, or try to get the patches, if you can.

SJ

Thanks my friend, Your wisdom, went down nicely. Thankyou
Almost 24 hours in, no change, as one would expect.



HS


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:45 pm 
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Hi Hope, Thank you for your wise words. I do realize it can be done. I have already been on this drug now almost 2 years. I believe it is time but you are so right exposing my fear. Deep down I am fearful of going lower than 1mg. Just dont want to lose my "crutch". Im embarrassed all my rambling emails. It has been along time since posting on these boards.

I am going to try to get ahold of the films. Believe it or not, despite my fear and not so successful attempts with the liquid, I am ready to taper. What can time gain me now. I was ready 6months ago and keep stalling. My largest issue with the water method is I dont trust that my bup is in there enough.

Atleast with the films, I can eleviate that issue.

Congrats again on your success. It is reading success stories like yours and the fact yours is CURRENT (and not years ago) that is so encouraging. Most of the threads I have read are like 2007/2009...can't even talk to the people anymore since they tend to disappear. Thank you for responding and I will write back at some point my success.

Hopefully no more rambling. I am usually not this bad, trust me.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:37 am 
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Update

2 days since last dose:(start trumpets now)

Yet to notice anything, except usual insomnia.
Skeleton feels as though i am still dosing, which is interesting.
I feel basically the same as when I was on .04mg.
Which would sound odd right?. But i feel , as if i was dosing at .04, even after not dosing.

Could a super slow taper actually defeat such an enemy...Jury not in....Yet...
Mood is good, sleep is awful, But.......this is like the last few days/hours of a virus.
and thats an overstatement.

This is magnitudes of order less stressful, than I conjoured, but i say that tentativly, as this is, early days.

I must say I am surprised how normal I feel,.
I did have the big dumy spit yesterday, where i asked the big questions like, "what in the hell am i doing, this to myself,,,etc"
This was my inner addict finding it hard to release controll, this was the short term demon.


Anyway, that was yesterday, and i am still here,.
Also, have alook into norgesic, which i am taking for leg pain, when needed.
It is like some f'ing super broad spectrum wd killer.
Its clonidine, pain reielf, benzo, gabapentin, all in one, with-out too much addiction. Never heard it ever mentioned.

Peace and love all,

HS


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:47 am 
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Congratulations hopespring, you did it! That is a huge accomplishment. Don't listen to those "voices", keep moving forward. And no, it doesn't sound odd at all that 0 feels the same as .04 because we only absorb about 30% of a sublingual dose, so you have been at zero for quite some time now, but psychologically you wanted to believe your were still dosing. But that's OK, you have to do whatever works for you - and it worked! I wish you the best, and be very protective of your sobriety going forward.
Lilly


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:38 pm 
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Thanks Lillyval,

I am pretty sure you are right, and it was psychological.
I will never use again, I know this now, I am not going to ever stuff up 2.5 years of dedicated tapering.
I just had a look at my old diary, I reckon I spent 12 months going from .8 to .04.
That should show how much of a wimp I am. But my thinking has always been, adjust the brain, slowly, even try to trick it into thinking that i am still dosing when I am not.

I tried so hard to reduce the amount of perception of dropping dose, by tapering so slow.


day 3 today, and I still feel as if i am dosing, It must be true lillyval, as my legs and sleep are actually better now, than they have been the last 4 weeks on the last few micrograms.

I was really expecting hell on earth, but nothing, in fact I actually feel pretty damn good.
I slept more last night, than I have for a while, 10:30 pm to 5 am, no disruptions.
Is this for real????I mean is a 2.5 year taper the goose that laid the golden egg.

This Morning, I would of at least expected to feel shitty, but I just simply don't.
I am laughing, social, have energy, and feel that I could have totally worked, through the last 3 days.

Anyway, i still need everyones support, so please don't abondon me, just yet.
I want to really document, the next few months, to see if there are any changes.

hs


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:35 pm 
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Update: Day 4 since jumping.

Feel pretty good during day, but not winning yet with sleep thing.
Getting around 2-5 hours of sleep per night.

I don;t feel mentally bad at all,. still full of spirit, cracking jokes, BUT..........
Me not likey the length of sleep so much. Oh well, But think of the upside.
I AM NOT ON SUBS ANYMORE________YIPPEEEEEEE.

So whats a little lack of sleep for the benefit of my future,...? Priceless

The funny side is, that I am actually getting used to functioning without a lot of sleep.
But think of the peace and quiet you get at night time, and the bonus of actually enjoying sex for the first time in 6 years.

So maybe there is a little bad, like lack of sleep, but there is so much good, that just outweighs this small stuff.
And yes, things seem to look clearer without subs, its like looking at nature, for the first time again.
That extra pupil dilation, really goes along way.......lol

Hanging in there, as WARRIOR persona, is now initiated(thought romeo would like that one)

HS


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:23 pm 
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Gotta love that WARRIOR persona baby!!!! :D

Isn't it weird how well we can function on next to zero sleep? I know I wasn't 100% while my sleep was like yours, but I was still functioning at a very high level and it was pretty amazing to me.

It's funny how you said being off Sub is like looking at nature for the first time. Not long after I got off Sub, I remember looking out the window and I was amazed that trees had leaves. I know that sounds silly, but it's like I had ignored that for so long that when I noticed it again I was all like :shock: !! And yes, sex is so great again. While on drugs, sex was just a thing I did, once off all drugs, sex was like :D[sup]2[/sup] again. (that's happy squared!)

Glad to hear you're doing so well, keep it up!!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:10 am 
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day 5 Since Jumping

A little harder today, having a heat wave doesn't help, 41 degrees for a few days now....

Got about 2-3 hours of sleep last night, and was woken by some lovely aching shoulder muscles.
Never had that there before, good to know,(goes away as soon as I get up.)

Had to do a few things in the city, so went for a great 3-5 km walk, which was nice.
The only things I notice, are slight restlesness in wrists, which dissapear after Ibuprofen or THC, which last about 30-40 mins and disspate when focus is diverted from the how am I feelin, B.S.

I will put it down to expecting the peak of symptoms, and purely psychosomatic .

Besides that, mood is good, especially considering lack of sleep.
I do have naps during the day, once my sleep credit is full. Nice sleeps too. Feel tired on waking, which is something different, for all us tapers out there.

Funny thing is, well, there's too funny things actually

The first being keeping my mind busy, by any means, stops any symptons I may have.(damn you mammilian mind)
The second, as Romeo would appreciate, as soon as sex is initiated, all symptons dissapear...

I think I can see a pattern,......lol

Also because we all expect to deal at least something negative during cessation of subs , I am sure we fall into the trap of..

Expect bad stuff, your mind will probably fullfil your expections, (discourteous bastard)

My analogy was walking in 41c weater 100~ fahrenheit for an hour. at the end of the walk, it is easy to blame your wd on how you feel. its just bloody hot. This would tie into my anecdotal belief that symptons peak around day 5....

Anyway

That's all to report for now.
Lesson to be learnt

Day 5, we are all green lights:

Mood 95%
Pain (non existent during day, unless I want to create it mentally) 0%
Sleep ( poor, but thank the good lord, I practiced sleep deprivation during my taper.)-(unintentionally FYI)
It suck initally, getting up during the night, but after a while, it sucks alot less


HS


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:32 am 
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I'm really happy for you, and your posts are making me look forward to being off Sub again, instead of dreading it. And yes, it does make sense that sex stops the WD symptoms. Anything that triggers our natural endorphins stops WD, sex, hugging, laughing, vigorous exercise and pain (not recommended).
On the sleep thing - you have to just accept sleep when your body is ready to let you have it, which isn't necessarily when you WANT it. I was falling asleep @8:00, before my kids went to bed, which was bad. I was sleeping like 8:00-11:00 and then 4:00 to 6:00 am when I had to get up. It was messed up, but I just went with it - and both the kids and I got through it. It got better over time, and it will for you, too. Keep up the good work!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:49 am 
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Thanks lillyval,

Day seven I think today, all symptoms peaked last night, had resltless everything.
Temazepan and valium seem to be useless in putting me to sleep, as you said, I can manage 2 hours only at moment.

Mood is good, its just the aches in my shoulders, that is annoying. It seems to move up and down to my legs, every other day.

Like one day it shoulders, then the next its rls in the legs. I have noticed that I am getting to peak of all symptoms, and it should get better from here on in.

I had to work today, which was weird, hands were shaking a bit, but still got through it.
Have not hit the exhaustion stage yet, still got too much energy, so DR gave me clonidine yesterday.
Defintely relaxes me, somewhat. Starting to feel the cold shivers coming,.
Oh, how exicting, stage 2, has begfun, goodbye stage 1.

Anyway, definately gonna power through this B.s.

Longterm happiness is what I am after, and that trumps all pain, and misery.

Peace and love
HS


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:52 am 
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Hey HS,

Here's a music video for ya, I think you'll like the title....and the guys jumping around in tights are good for a belly laugh. Gotta love those 80's videos!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIDaBF8LILk

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:37 pm 
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Hey Romeo,

Got it playing in the background, Have not heard her for a while, extremely poignant and also a good 80's chuckle.

Yes , I am the warrior.....lol ( a 2.5 year warrior who has just beaten bupe!!)


The most important update yet

Day 8, all symptoms have dissapeared, have slept 8 hours last two nights, no rls, no pain,'
I have this sense that I have won, and it is over.

I woke up this morning for the first time in almost 3 years, and felt truly tired, and me again.
I have had no temzepam, or sleeping aids!!!!!!!!

I am f'n free. I feel 100% normal. WOW, the worst it ever got was tight shoulders, and 6 days of 1-2 hours sleep.



YIPEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HS


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