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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:03 pm 
I'm just making this thread because I am curious what you think. The more people chiming in, the better. I personally have detoxed from both of these wicked narcotics. I was on suboxone 4 1/2 years and for heroin, i was only addicted to it for about 2 months. I was doing it every day at around 2 bundles daily.

Just my 2 cents- I feel quitting the suboxone and going through all the stuff that comes as a result of stopping it was much harder to deal with than the dope detox. Of course the heroin withdrawals were more severe but lasted a week from start to finsih. Once again, just my personal experience and opions. I am 4 months off the suboxone and am still suffering the post acute withdrawals. A nasty depression i might add some days. Although, it is still worth it. I feel good for the most part as far as emotions and my pride back.

All welcome to share , obviously. haha I would like to see what you guys think. Anyone who has quit both suboxone and heroin have got a least favorite I'm sure. I asked myself, "Which withdrawal would i least want to go through again?" For me, it would be the suboxone.


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 Post subject: OOPS! I meant "OPINIONS"
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:06 pm 
Me dumb, I no know how to speell rite.


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 Post subject: Time Frame
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:21 pm 
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Quick question. How long did you stay off heroin before using any other opiate narcotic, including Suboxone? I ask because you said you have been off Sub for 4 months and know what that is like but did you go 4 months clean after stopping heroin? If so, then you truly know the difference.

Just trying to clarify some things. I cannot debate this one as I never used H more than a week at a time.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:22 pm 
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Winningduhepic wrote:
I am 4 months off the suboxone and am still suffering the post acute withdrawals. A nasty depression i might add some days.


Hey man no offense but you used heroin for 2 months after suboxone. You switched from sub to heroin. It's just not right to say you are 4 months off suboxone and feeling paws from it without disclosing this fact. It makes a big difference in the discussion you are trying to initiate IMO. You are 4 months off sub but 2 months off of heroin unless I am mistaken. Not to mention sub was your first opiate and drug of choice, right?

Sorry if I seem harsh, I hope you feel better soon and I'm in your corner. Paws usually happens after we quit opiates, no matter which ones. (or even booze or whatever)

Peace,

Glen


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:03 pm 
Hey Glen, you are right with everything you said concerning my story. You have a good memory and have been following my posts i see. I appreciate that. Not harsh whatsoever. But, what i'm feeling has got to be the suboxone PAWS. I've been off heroin for 2 months now and was only on it for 2 months as well. I doubt i would still be feeling withdrawals still from that. Maybe if i was a long time dope user, i could see me feeling shitty 2 months after. But dope is out of your system fast in comparison to subs. I'm just thinking im in sub PAWS now only because i was off suboxone for 3 1/2 months at another time.... and i felt just how i do now.

Hey Rule, i understand what you're saying. I should wait the same amount of time to really notice a fair comparison. To clarify here is exactly how my addiction timeline is.... Started suboxone- 4 1/2 years later - started dope- 2 months later i stopped everything. That leads me up until right now.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:14 pm 
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So you're 2 months clean off opioids all up.

Answering your question, Suboxone / buprenorphine detox for me has always been more difficult for me to deal with than heroin detox, both in intensity and duration. I woulda detoxed hundreds of times in my addiction, and the top 5 nasty ones were "high jumps" off buprenorphine (6+ mg jumps) or methadone (60+mg jumps) (the worst being an accidental "rapid detox").

Heroin detox was always straight forward and predictable. It only lasted a week. Its intensity was, I found, the easiest to deal with outta all the strong opioids I tried (possible exception morphine). I've heard from some people who've been hooked on both pills and heroin at different stages that pills are much harder to withdraw off than heroin, which is kinda ironic considering so many of the pill addicted like to think it's the heroin addicts who are hardcore. I blame the movies for that.

Anyway, if I could switch to heroin to get off Sub and guarantee it wouldn't end in a fallback into addiction, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But sadly heroin was my drug of choice, so such a move would be fucking stupid.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:55 pm 
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I never did Heroin, so I really can't compare my Suboxone detox to a heroin detox.

I detoxed off OxyContin and ended up in the hospital. OxyContin detox is by FAR the worst opiate I've ever detoxed from. I literally lost control of my arms and legs and bowel movements. My arms would shoot out and flail around every few seconds, my legs jerked and twitched like never before and I crapped out so much fluid, that's what put me in the hospital. I made it 1 week off OC before I threw in the towel.

I detoxed off of Hydrocodone a few times, I made it 30 days once, but I could not take the crushing depression that came after acute wd. The acute wd from Hyrdo's isn't quite as severe as OC's, but it still sucks hard.

Suboxone detox (high jump) wasn't as severe as Hydrocodone wd, but good gravy, it last for-fucking-ever. The acute phase is like that damn energizer bunny, it just keeps going and going and going. The PAWS associated with Suboxone are long lived, but seeing as the most clean time I ever had off any other opiate is 30 days, I really can't say that Suboxone PAWS are worse or better?

I do know this, though.....if you keep fighting and keep showing up for life, Suboxone PAWS do get better, they do go away!!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:29 pm 
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Jesus. Why are they making drugs that are harder to come off of than heroin, that doesnt make sense. Hydrocodone can't really be more addictive than heroin...can it? I've never been addicted to either.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:58 am 
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i plus ericis" i;m still on 22mg subs over 2 1/2 years and some times i take 40 and skip a day. i no i should not but i do/did.
oxycontion was why i'm on subs and for pain from surgery and now i'm worse than a heroin addict. i lost my apointment and
trying to get in touch with my doc and he has not contacted me yet :( i hope i don't have to go to his door. tear3". i no dam
well that i can not wean off subs and jumping would be 30 feet down. soooo i never used heroin and may be a detox from it would not be that bad if i be very care full. SHIT". how doe's any body be very care full in this bull shit. i don't no but'
if we all could come off suboxone easy'r ". the suboxone program would not work :?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:48 am 
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Remember, PAWS doesn't come from suboxone alone. How long were you on opiates BEFORE you started suboxone? That WILL contribute to the PAWS you are suffering from now. There is no possible way to ascertain what the PAWS you are suffering from now is from. You have to combine ALL the drugs you were on and add up all the time you were on them. THAT IS WHAT THE PAWS IS FROM. Both are out of your system, it's the fact that your brain is still working on getting your natural endorphins back to normal. That's, however, about all I know about the specifics of PAWS.

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 Post subject: You Can't Compare
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:58 pm 
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Aren't they all opiates? Just like Hat said, addicts will have PAWS from whatever opiate they are giving up. I have a very close friend who is in the middle of PAWS. His drug was Oxy's and the symptoms are the same as Sub or whatever opiate you were taking.

Are we really debating whether or not Sub is worse than Heroin during w/d's? The only way to get an accurate answer to that would be to wean down on both to the lowest possible dose and then jump and monitor your symptoms. Ever met anyone who could taper down from junk? Not me. Ever met anyone who could taper down from Suboxone? Yes, many. So that experiment won't work.

IMO, it just seems like a silly discussion. That's my 4¢ (inflation) I edited this to retract that last statement. It appears to be a topic of great interest, just not to me.

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Last edited by rule62 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:20 pm 
"Remember, PAWS doesn't come from suboxone alone. How long were you on opiates BEFORE you started suboxone? That WILL contribute to the PAWS you are suffering from now. There is no possible way to ascertain what the PAWS you are suffering from now is from. You have to combine ALL the drugs you were on and add up all the time you were on them. THAT IS WHAT THE PAWS IS FROM" -HATMAKER

That sounds nice if you are trying to argue the benefit of Suboxone. But its not entirely true. I'm pretty sure many of you wont know this and I'll explain why what you are feeling months later is ENTIRELY SUBOXONE WITHDRAWAL. I was not on any opiates before i got on suboxone. So, when i quit suboxone for the first time....there was nothing but BUPE in my system. And let me tell you.... I was as miserable as miserable gets for 3 1/2 months. Then i couldnt take it anymore and went back on suboxone. This shit is NO JOKE to quit. It was no doubt 100% PAWS months later. And it was all the suboxone. I was always a happy person and loved life before i started. When i got off the subs.... i was the total opposite to say the least. Don't fool yourself Hatmaker.... Suboxone withdrawal lasts the longest of any other drug known to man according to the hours of research I have done on this topic.

I'm not a Dr. but I have tried quitting suboxone more times than i can count on one hand. I have relapsed every one so far except this time around. I never was a wuss. Always a hard worker in school and life. I placed 2nd in my states Golden Gloves. Okay, and getting off suboxone and dealing with everything that comes along with it, has been the biggest hurdle in my life by FAR. Hey, take it for what its worth. I just want people to know how it very well possibly could be dealing with this. Thanks, bye


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:30 pm 
"IMO, it just seems like a silly discussion. That's my 4¢ (inflation)"

Then why bother taking time out of your life to put your 4cents in? Dude, what's so silly about this topic.... no sillier than others i've read on here.

And maybe some people want to know what other people think about this topic. Are you another one on Sub maintanence that have a sny undermining attitude toward others who do not share the same story. I get jumped on from alot of people on this forum because I chose to not be on suboxone for the rest of my life. Empathy ok? To the small group I am comin' at.


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 Post subject: I AGREE
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:13 pm 
Kudos to Ericis and JohnBoy. they are putting out a drug more addictive than heroin because the goal is to keep them from heroin. the only way to do that is to make something more addictive. i feel so fu---in hopeless right now. very suicidal because i have tried quitting suboxone since 03'. I made it almost a year. i could not take the depression anymore. i should have been excersizing and takin better care of myself and i think i could have stayed off. but, i was slammin anywhere from a gram or 2 of dope a day for over 15 years. and then suboxone came along. the dr. said i could get off easily and there would be next to no withdrawals , if any. i got conned, i got played. i was their puppet. the drug company's and the dr.s . all my family and group members and dr.'s and freinds know how hopeless i feel about getting off suboxone and they see how i have been for these past few years. they say, why dont you stay on and just learn to live like this? and i say, why? why do i want to be a miserable anti social robot the rest of my fuckin life. that is how i feel on this stuff anyway. im cool with people who want to stay on it for maintanence. thats fine. for me.. i cant take this dull existance anymore. i want to be free


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:34 pm 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
Remember, PAWS doesn't come from suboxone alone.


actually PAWS can come from suboxone alone. I was never on anything before suboxone and i'm in 8 months PAWS.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:54 pm 
"There is no possible way to ascertain what the PAWS you are suffering from now is from. You have to combine ALL the drugs you were on and add up all the time you were on them. THAT IS WHAT THE PAWS IS FROM" HATMAKER-

No I don't believe this is correct at all. What would be the point of suboxone then if you're still going to suffer any type of withdrawals from the opiate you were on before? And that whole adding the drugs you were on and multiple it by the years you used and then divide it by who gives a shit. SAO, you know what this stands for. Short acting opiates. After being on suboxone for 3 years and then abruptly stopping..... you are not going to be having any SAO withdrawals. Why would you? They would have been out of your brain and system about 2 1/2 years prior at best. Short acting opiates (SAO's) will not effect you way down the line as far as having PAWS. Come on, you know this


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:13 pm 
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Think what you want, but it is true - according to medical professionals - that ALL OPIATES, as well as other drugs, cause PAWS. ALL OPIATES, including suboxone. You're completely missing the point.

https://patienteducation.osumc.edu/Documents/paws.pdf

This is from Ohio State University. You might want to read it and you'll see it's from MANY DRUGS, including amphetamines and alcohol.

Just because you only took suboxone that doesn't mean that other opiates does NOT cause PAWS.

Winningduhepic, STOP PRESENTING OPINIONS AS FACTS. You have been doing this since you joined the forum. Expect a PM from a moderator.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:25 pm 
Like i said.... Hatmaker, you will not feel PAWS from a SAO years down the line. You're just sour a new member like myself is questioning you. Hey, you started comin at me and saying how rediculous and stupid my means to get off suboxone was. Ever since then you have had a personal vendetta against me. Thats fine though but dont cry when you get it back saying the hall monitor is going to send me a message. hahaha I'm not mad i find this kinda funny. why dont we just squash this and agree to disagree. I dont care bout ur posts anymore and you can stray away from mine thats fine. Because, i dont beleive you ever showed true support, in my case, from the beggining. I bet you are very respected on this forum and have helped many people. Although, i have not in the least bit felt support from your comments on my posts. Just plain judgement.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:34 pm 
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OK, listen, you're not understanding me, that's quite clear. What I'm saying is PAWS can be caused by many things. PERIOD. That is a fact that you cannot change. If you personally went on suboxone without having been on opiates before that (to avoid relapse I assume? Otherwise what's the point?), then that's fine and YES, you, in this case, CAN boil your PAWS down to suboxone. Which is fine, I have no problem in this case saying it's the suboxone. But in general, most people go from an opiate to suboxone, therefore, most people cannot ascertain what the PAWS is coming from.

Have I spelled that out better for you now? Is this clear for you NOW?

As for judgement, no, I'm here to make sure this forum runs smoothly and that the rules are followed. I don't know you from Adam and I support everyone on this forum, but you've somehow mistaken that to mean I should be an ass-kisser and a doormat. And that I shouldn't also get to have an opinion just because I'm also supposed to enforce the rules.

And yes, you will receive a PM from one of my moderators. Just because you happen to be aggressive doesn't mean I can't be assertive in return.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:44 pm 
Very condiscending. That's whats clear.

Did I not say lets agree to disagree. You wanna agruement dont ya? I'm not even gonna respond. Ok, i'll wait for your message. If i get kicked off people, you know why.... I guess?? I thought this thing was keeping me from relapsing, i guess we'll see.


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