It is currently Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:11 am



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 

Is a person on Suboxone maintenence "clean"?
Yes 78%  78%  [ 18 ]
No 22%  22%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 23
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:43 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:43 am
Posts: 893
Location: AZ
Hi everyone, As I said before I find everyone's opinions quite interesting and all though these subjects have been talked about I think it is more informative being in one place. Please know I use the term "clean" because I could not think of another word to use. So here's my thoughts, I beleive a person on sub maintenence is absolutely "clean". You are taking a prescribed medication to treat your addiction. Now here is the grey area I run into which is why I think the term clean sucks. You are still taking an opiate and as far as your brain is concerned nothing has changed. I absolutely do not feel high on sub but I do feel different than I did pre addiction. Sub makes me feel much more mellow and relaxed and I still notice a bit of a disconnect from my feelings. Not that I have no emotion just maybe that I care about thimgs a bit less and am lazier than before. Now saying all that I do not mind the feeling and to be honest think the mellowness that it gives me has made handling things easier. So I guess what I am trying to say is that yes I feel "clean" on sub but I also know that I feel "less than sober" on sub and I think these are 2 different things that sometimes get grouped together. Again I use these terms "clean" and "sober" because I can't think of anything better


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:45 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:43 am
Posts: 893
Location: AZ
I had a 3rd option that said,

I'm not sure, I see both side's of the argument.

But for some reason it did not post, if a moderator can fix that I would apreciate it. Otherwise if that is your view feel free to post it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:56 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:44 am
Posts: 88
Location: NWNJ
I do not consider myself "clean",I really admire the ppl at NA that have quit through sheer willpower.I have tried about every month for the past 6 yrs and deeply regret all the time I wasted sleeping on the couch during the day for days on end.I would put the kids on the bus and fall asleep on the couch and sleep the days away and not shower.GROSS.

I,however,consider myself "free of my addictive behavior" and for me,that alone is a miracle.

_________________
I just want to get the monkey off of my back for good!!


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:57 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:44 am
Posts: 88
Location: NWNJ
In my case,yes,the Sub is Dr prescribed but also so was the meds I abused.The diff is I do not abuse the Sub,nor do I have the desire to do so.

_________________
I just want to get the monkey off of my back for good!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:00 pm 
I think clean is a bad way to put it, but yes, I am a recovering addict. I take a medication that allows me to stop the cycle of addictive behaviors that make my life a nightmare. Am I taking a chemical? Yes. Do I believe that I can be in recovery and take this chemical? Yes. In fact, I have never managed to be in recovery for more than a few miserable months without it. I was so miserable in fact, that even though I was totally free of chemicals, I wouldn't call it recovery at all. I felt like crap and had no positive forward movement in my life. So, completely chemically free doesn't work for me!

-T


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:56 pm 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:10 pm
Posts: 231
Location: pacific nw
I agree with Travis, yes, I am clean while on suboxone.

I am on 4mg of sub a day and feel completly sober.

I am not putting a needle in my arm anymore or obsessing about opiates.

So what if we take a daily medication to help us stay off our drugs? Sub keeps me out of active addiction so yeah, Im clean!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:51 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:39 am
Posts: 4028
Location: Sitting at my computer
I considered myself clean while on Suboxone, I consider myself clean now that I'm not on Suboxone.

When I was on Suboxone, did I have a powerful narcotic coursing through my body, yep. Was I completely normal, nope. But I wasn't in active addiction and to me, that's what counts.

Travis, you say that completley chemical free doesn't work for you, but you only gave abstinence a few months?? If you're a long time drug/opiate abuser like me, a few months of abstinence just isn't gonna cut it to where you don't feel miserable anymore. I was in the neighborhood of 9 months before I really felt my PAWS lift, then living life without drugs smacked me in the face, but I'm not giving up, not by a long shot. I've got a taste of living completley narcotic free and I like it. It's hard work, no doubt, but for me, it's the way to go.

_________________
Be kind to yourself. Our character defects do NOT define who we are!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:57 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
It's a real hard one this, as my answer to the question has no doubt changed over the course of my recovery. When I was a hardcore NA fiend, I would have definitely said no. And a lot of that came from experience. I'd been off heroin both via complete abstinence (rehab -> NA) and while on Sub. Only after I withdrew off the Suboxone, I noticed how the Subox definitely cushions reality a little bit, even though I didn't notice it at the time. Off the Subox, I felt my emotions more, and my creativity went up heaps. Music resonated a lot more. Because of this, I didn't view Subox as being 100% clean.

Now though I lean the other way, mainly because I've noticed the amount a person can mature and develop while on Suboxone, unlike while in active addiction or even arguable methadone.

But most of all, I think the idea of what's "clean" is really subjective. One person might not consider you clean if you smoke cigarettes! Another person might consider them clean if they just stopped using needles. A lot of grief and conflict comes from people imposing their definition of what they consider "clean" on other people. Because of this, IMO you're clean if you genuinely believe you are. Who am i to say whether or not you're clean? The only person my "clean" applies to is me.

The reason I say this is because I got kicked out of a halfway house because I took 25mg Seroquel to help me sleep, when I had officially weened off it 2 months earlier with my GP and had half a box left over. Then word spread through NA, and some people considered I wasn't clean, and started walking out of the meetings when I'd share because I was "lying" about my clean time. I wasn't about to give up a year clean over 25mg of Seroquel.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:05 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
I agree with tearjerker, if someone believes they are clean, then they are clean! It's just not up to me to determine that. To me, being clean means an end to the self-destructive behaviors that ruined relationships and jobs, etc. Remove all those damaging behaviors and I think that's what makes the difference between "clean" or not. (BTW, I HATE that word "clean", always have.)

So yes, I consider myself clean being on sub.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject: "clean" on suboxone
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:51 am 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:55 am
Posts: 252
Location: Over the Rainbow

I just voted in this poll; and I voted "yes."

I've just had a thought/feeling/idea:

what matters most to me right now about this particular issue
is whether or not my sub doctor thinks that I am "clean" on subs-
and, indeed, he does- so that must mean something.
(Well, it does for me.)

-ex-


_________________
"-"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:39 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:59 pm
Posts: 993
Location: Carson City, Nevada
Well, I don't believe people feel the same way on Suboxone as they would off of it. I think it changes things a bit. For some people, this is a significant problem. However, I also think that is exactly what other people need to be able to lead a happy, healthy, responsible life and I don't think taking Sub makes someone 'not clean'. There are plenty of people at meetings (NA especially) who are 'totally clean' and living the most unhealthy lives imaginable, so where is the friggin' good in that?! I'm not dissing all meetings, but I always had to laugh to myself when some arrogant SOB got on him high horse about how stuff like Suboxone and antidepressants made you 'not clean', knowing he was a terrible husband and father, couldn't keep a job, etc. Quitting Sub to fit another person's or organization's definition of 'clean', regardless of the impact on one's life, is really stupid and backwards. I don't believe it is what the founders of AA even wanted anyway. I think that sort of absolute judgment is about personalities and arrogance and not about recovery.

IMO, we know when we are clean or not clean. And I also hate that word, because the flip side is 'dirty', which is really insulting to those who have turned their lives around while on Sub or some other drug they need. So....you quit sticking needles in your arm, quit stealing, are no longer homeless, are getting your Hep treated, even got a job.....yet you are dirty?!

However, I don't think everyone on Sub is 'clean' either. It all depends on what you are doing. You can get on Sub, take it the wrong way, take more than you are supposed to and then run out early, or combine it with other meds to get a greater effect, etc. I've noticed some people take extra Sub even when it isn't physically doing anything. These are addict behaviors and part of being clean is addressing these things. Normally, people who get clean have a lot of repair work to do and other issues to address. If you are addressing those issues and taking your meds like you are supposed to, you are in recovery and doing well. If someone still has something to say about you taking Sub, then they probably are projecting their own crap on you and you should ignore them and give them a mental middle finger. With few exceptions, nobody has the right to judge your cleanliness. I mean, I certainly confronted people nodding in meetings or slurring and stinking of booze, but that is completely different.

I guess I ask myself what I'd want for my child. If my child was an opiate addict, I would just want them to be healthy and happy. If they could accomplish this w/o Sub, then that would be great! If they would be miserable and in danger without Sub, I'd beg them to start taking it. There is absolutely no one-size-fits-all. I truly believe some people need Sub like life support and we all have to stand up for those people, regardless of whether we need it ourselves, because nobody should be given a guilt trip for doing what they must do to stay alive.

laddertipper

_________________
First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:16 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:43 am
Posts: 893
Location: AZ
Thanks for all the replies guys! I just wanted to make sure that you all know I do not like the term "clean" either and I just couldn't think of another way to put it. Unfortunately it is the word that has been given and would love to hear another way to put it if anyone has one. I actually sat there for 15 minutes writing and rewriting what I was trying to ask and it never made sense. So I decided to use it and then explain in my post that I thought it sucked!

I think Tearjerker put it best, what matters is what you think of yourself. Other peoples standards do not apply, if you are living your life in a healthy way for you then I think that is what's important. I wonder if a better word would be free, Do you feel free on sub?

I just had a lot written and it for some reason it just got erased from here down! I do not have time to write it out again, but want to make sure it's clear that I think there is no difference between someone in recovery on sub or not on sub. I believe myself to be "free" or "clean" or whatever you want to call it. I post these questions because I find it interesting how everyone thinks differently and to get a sense of where we all stand. I respect everyone's opinion, even those who answered no and enjoy the diversity in the human race.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:50 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:39 am
Posts: 4028
Location: Sitting at my computer
While I felt clean on Suboxone, I certainly did not feel free. I was heavily dependent on a medication to get me through the day and because of that, I didn't feel free at all. The lack of freedom is part of why I quit.

I know taking Suboxone has been compared to taking insulin for being dependent on something, but the fact is that a lot of us can quit Suboxone when we're ready and be just fine, you can't say that for someone with diabetes who needs insulin daily to live.

_________________
Be kind to yourself. Our character defects do NOT define who we are!


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:10 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:43 am
Posts: 893
Location: AZ
Yeah I don't like the insulin comparison either. My husband is a type one diabetic. He is physically fit and has a good diet. Type one is just something that happens to people and they do not know why, they are started to think it is an auto immune condition. His body makes zero insulin and with out his insulin he could be dead in a few days. He did nothing to cause or contribute to this disease. He must take a shot any time he eats or drinks anything as well as a 24 hour insulin.

Now type 2 diabetics are usually caused from being over weight, having a poor diet and no exercise so yeah there lifestyle contributed to their disease and lifestyle changes would help, however they usually can treat their diabetes with other medications besides insulin and if they get bad enough to require insulin it is usually a shot or 2 a day as their bodies still produce insulin, their body just doesn't use it properly. They do not face the same complications as a type one and could most likely go on for some time without insulin.

The reason I do not like the comparison is because type 1 diabetics had absolutley no control over getting the disease, no life choice they made caused hem to be diabetic. They hold no responsibility in it what so ever. I do believe addiction to be a disease but it is a disease we helped to create, our lifestyle choices led us to where we are and we do have the power to overcome it, unfortunately type one insulin dependant diabetics are helpless and have no chance of ever overcoming their disease.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:18 pm 
Romeo wrote:
Travis, you say that completley chemical free doesn't work for you, but you only gave abstinence a few months??


I guess I could have explained this better, I keep forgetting no one here really knows ANYTHING about me. I'm writing my Introduction slowly but surely in Word, hope to have it posted soon...

Anyway, I have been in about 7 abstinence based treatment facilities in the last 11+ years, one of them being 8 months long. I have tried wholeheartedly complete abstinence multiple, multiple times over the last 15 years or so and have never made it more than just short of a year before I relapsed. So, if I said "doesn't work for me," perhaps I should have said "hasn't worked for me."


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:03 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:39 am
Posts: 4028
Location: Sitting at my computer
Holy Smokes Travis, 7 abstinence based facilities.....you certainly have given abstinence a fair shot!! One of them was 8 months long too....wow, it sure sounds like you gave it your all.

I'm glad you cleared that up for me, thanks man. Now, where's that bio you keep promising us?? Clickity clack....get to typing!! :D

Really, I'd love to hear your story, it sounds intriguing.

_________________
Be kind to yourself. Our character defects do NOT define who we are!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:34 pm 
Romeo wrote:
I'm glad you cleared that up for me, thanks man. Now, where's that bio you keep promising us?? Clickity clack....get to typing


Thanks forf the motivation! I decided to start posting my story in parts...Part 1 is now posted.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:49 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:43 am
Posts: 1019
Location: Buffalo New York
I am with TearJerker and Hat!

If you are happy, healthy, and well on suboxone than that is awesome because the way you view yourself is all that truly matters at the end of the day. If you think you are clean than you are clean and it doesn’t mean shit what someone else thinks or has to say to you about it. Because the way I see it is, look at yourself during active use and now look at yourself while on suboxone and tell me that those people are not clean!!!!!!!!!!! I mean I am on methadone if I listened to half the shit people say on this forum alone about methadone I mine as well just starting shooting dope up again. But I don’t listen to that because I am happy with myself and my life now and that was not the case during active use. So to the rest of the world am i clean who knows and who gives a shit because i know for a fact i am clean. If you want to tell me I am not go for it I really couldn’t care what someone else has to say to me about the topic at hand and if I did let that bother me than that makes me a weak minded individual.

_________________
Yes these drugs saved our life's. But does that mean we have to give the rest of our life to these drugs?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:05 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 1503
travispnorton wrote:
Romeo wrote:
Travis, you say that completley chemical free doesn't work for you, but you only gave abstinence a few months??


I guess I could have explained this better, I keep forgetting no one here really knows ANYTHING about me. I'm writing my Introduction slowly but surely in Word, hope to have it posted soon...

Anyway, I have been in about 7 abstinence based treatment facilities in the last 11+ years, one of them being 8 months long. I have tried wholeheartedly complete abstinence multiple, multiple times over the last 15 years or so and have never made it more than just short of a year before I relapsed. So, if I said "doesn't work for me," perhaps I should have said "hasn't worked for me."


My experience with abstinence based recovery is pretty similar. Would have been about 8 rehabs, a number of 28 day ones but also two stints at 6 month rehabs, one finishing early. 12 step meetings were the constant theme throughout, as all the facilities were 12 step based. I also relapsed after just over a year clean. This was over a period of about 3 years though. 3 years of trying my ASS off at getting complete abstinence. It was my full time job. I wasn't working. Life was dedicated to meetings and getting clean, and relapsing.

What's also interesting is my family and non-addict friends see me now as doing a LOT better now on Suboxone than I was doing the revolving door rehab and relapse / early recovery cycle. Even though by 12 step standards I'd be viewed as more successful 5 days clean in rehab than being on Suboxone, greater society views me as much more successful on Suboxone as I am working and studying, paying tax, paying rent, have a good relationship, not smoking etc. These days I believe greater society has a better definition of success than a few nutjobs with some key-tags in a cult.

Just my 2c :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:32 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:43 am
Posts: 1019
Location: Buffalo New York
tearj3rker wrote:
travispnorton wrote:
Romeo wrote:
Travis, you say that completley chemical free doesn't work for you, but you only gave abstinence a few months??


I guess I could have explained this better, I keep forgetting no one here really knows ANYTHING about me. I'm writing my Introduction slowly but surely in Word, hope to have it posted soon...

Anyway, I have been in about 7 abstinence based treatment facilities in the last 11+ years, one of them being 8 months long. I have tried wholeheartedly complete abstinence multiple, multiple times over the last 15 years or so and have never made it more than just short of a year before I relapsed. So, if I said "doesn't work for me," perhaps I should have said "hasn't worked for me."


My experience with abstinence based recovery is pretty similar. Would have been about 8 rehabs, a number of 28 day ones but also two stints at 6 month rehabs, one finishing early. 12 step meetings were the constant theme throughout, as all the facilities were 12 step based. I also relapsed after just over a year clean. This was over a period of about 3 years though. 3 years of trying my ASS off at getting complete abstinence. It was my full time job. I wasn't working. Life was dedicated to meetings and getting clean, and relapsing.

What's also interesting is my family and non-addict friends see me now as doing a LOT better now on Suboxone than I was doing the revolving door rehab and relapse / early recovery cycle. Even though by 12 step standards I'd be viewed as more successful 5 days clean in rehab than being on Suboxone, greater society views me as much more successful on Suboxone as I am working and studying, paying tax, paying rent, have a good relationship, not smoking etc. These days I believe greater society has a better definition of success than a few nutjobs with some key-tags in a cult.

Just my 2c :lol:



Tearjerker that is a real good one too is what close friends, family, gf or bf has to say about your recovery and how they view you, when you tried to kick it on your own with no opiate replacement drugs VS. doing it with suboxone. I mean who better to ask than the people you spend every day of your life with right?

_________________
Yes these drugs saved our life's. But does that mean we have to give the rest of our life to these drugs?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group