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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:49 am 
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I'm wondering how many people here think they would be clean today if they never got on Suboxone.

I know for me, I had tried to quit opiates several times and failed miserably each time. The longest I ever made it off opiates was 30 days. Most of my other attempts lasted anywhere from 2 to 3 days up to a week. In all honesty, after each failed attempt to quit opiates, my use then increased dramatically because I had basically given up hope of ever getting clean.

In the months leading up to me finding Suboxone, I was to the point in my addiction that I was snorting an OC 80 just to stave of dope sickness for a few hours. I knew I was in big trouble, but I didn't know what the hell to do. Not long after, I read an article in some magazine about this stuff called Suboxone and I figured I had nothing to lose.

Long story short, I got on Suboxone and got cleaned up. As far as I'm concerned, there's no way I would be clean today if it weren't for Suboxone.

I know there's a lot of talk about the side effects that come with Suboxone, but one side effect I'm really glad for is the side effect of being clean!! :D

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 Post subject: thanks romeo :-)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:49 pm 
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Thanks, for sharing that part of your story, FIRST OF ALL

You know, you are the FIRST one to help a LOT of people that come on here,
and while many of the "regulars" share details of active addiction fairly often,,,, I don't remember
MUCH AT ALL
of things you've shared, "pre-suboxone"
So thanks for that, really.
it's nice to hear, coming from you, allthough, Im not sure why???
LOL
just thanks,for sharing dude. :wink:

Now, everyone probably already knows MY answer, but Im really curious to see what other's think?
especially those of you out there, that are off suboxone, now.

Okay, NO I WOULD NOT BE CLEAN.
obviously, Im still ON suboxone!!!
But,,,,,
I've said it before, I'll say it again, Suicide was looking like the "good way" out.
the weeks/months leading to my induction date.
and the last pills I took/IV'd before my induction,,,,
I TOLD MYSELF,,
this is it, amber..... YOU ARE DONE with this life..... ENOUGH already!!!!
which,
at the time, I don't know if I believed myself?
but it's "rang true"

21 months ago, I was sleeping in my car, outside the (shitty) apartment, my husband and son lived in.
I was being indicted,
had no driver's licesense, had ciggarette burns in everything I owned.... my teeth were very painful and rotten,
owed every single person I knew, MONEY, (oh except the people I sold pills for, they always got paid, so I could get more)
hadn't had a job in years.
the list goes on and on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
now,
I've had the same job, almost two years!! I got it the second week I was on suboxone.
7,500 of dental work,
we bought a manufactured home, in a home park,,, thing,,, LOL,,, where everyone has their own yard/driveway/area
whatever.... so my son can run around and PLAY......
My husband and I are still in marriage counseling, but WOW we get along so great, now.
we still have the occasional, Umm,,, dis-agreement.
but it's few and far between...
My doctor calls me a "model patient"
I take care of my grandma, now, instead of just running her over, getting $$$ from her, and
you know, taking everything I can but the air she breathes.....
that's felt the best, outta everything,to make her PROUD of me, again.


THIS LIST GOES ON AND ON TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've had what I would call "minor side effects" from suboxone. . . the constipation issue,
but that's gone away with diet changes........ but the funny part is I've ALWAYS had that problem unless in WITHDRAWL
LOL
I used to get tired in the afternoon, groggy-like, when I was taking 24mg/day.
but now I'm on 12mg, it's gone away completely.
I'd like to be able to get by on 8mg a day, but it was a lil too hard for me... the cost is my reason why
or biggest reason,
and bigges SIDE EFFECT!!!!!! ($$$$$)

it sure is cheaper than the $200 a DAY I was spending before, though..................
well that's all I got.
thanks for letting me share......

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:07 am 
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Just to clarify, when I said clean in my original post, I meant people who are ON or OFF Suboxone (or Methadone, for that matter). As far as I'm concerned, people on Suboxone are just as clean as people who have decided to quit Suboxone.

Amber, I guess I never really realized that I've never done a proper introduction of myself on this forum and I've only ever shared my opiate experience in pieces here and there all over this forum. Maybe I'll go ahead and type it all up now. Nah, there's a bag of tater chips in the cupboard that are calling my name right now.....the intro will have to wait!!!

Thanks for sharing your story. I always like reading what you have to say. I always find something inspiring in what you write and usually get a laugh too.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:06 am 
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Sometimes I wonder what the answer to this would be ... which is probably why I question how grateful I am for Suboxone some times.

Before I got on Suboxone, I was a 12-stepper. I was in those rooms over 2 years. I worked the steps almost an hour a day, often prayed, did almost a meeting a day. At the start I couldn't get over 3 days up, but with each try, be it with the help from rehab or detox or even sheer willpower, I managed to get more time up. At one stage I got 13 months together, another time 7 months, and 3 or 4 months a couple of times.

My decision to go back on "drug replacement" was a real conscious, difficult decision. I'd just picked myself up after a real spiritual destroying relapse. I knew I'd be shunned by many in NA for doing it. But also I knew that deep down I was starting to "get it" - that is, start to "get" recovery with abstinence, with the 12-steps and without needing "drug replacement". And I thought that choosing Suboxone meant largely throwing away that progress.

But I'd also experienced relapse too many times ... and it seemed the longer I got clean, the harder the relapses were ... and the more I'd end up losing. Each relapse I'd experienced had damaged my soul and outlook, and I really didn't know if I could do it again. I'd also started to question whether the 12-steps were that effective after all, given my previous relapse I'd been working the steps, talking to a sponsor, praying, going to a meeting a day ... I was working a solid program, and it didn't mean shit in the end. But all the while I'd been told that if I did all those things, I couldn't relapse. I later found out it's not cool to discuss "relapsing on the program" in meetings, especially around newcomers.

Since I turned my back on "the firm" and chose Suboxone, I've started questioning a lot of the shit I learned in the rooms. And I've started to wonder whether I would have had more success in my recovery if I put in the same effort as I did in NA, but did it on my own, or using a gentler recovery method. It's for this reason that I sometimes question whether I need Suboxone, knowing what I know now about recovery, and being a bit more kind on myself.

Suboxone has definitely given me a "leg up", but crediting my clean time to Suboxone neglects all the progress I'd made in my recovery before. I'd been on Suboxone / methadone / subutex many times through my history of addiction, and even then couldn't stop using to the point I only stayed on them for a few weeks or months.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:14 pm 
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My answer is Yes, but not a confident yes - ya just never know

I had 5 years clean, starting in NA. The first 3 years were "NA clean" as in, squeaky clean. The next 2 years I backed away from the program. I smoked pot a couple times a year and had a drink or two if there was a wedding or on New Years, but I still considered myself clean. I even turned down opiates when I gave birth the first time. But that's the thing, I wasn't an opiate addict then.
In fact, I think I got onto NA way too soon. I had a couple of friends who got into recovery very early in life. One was one of my best friends, and she could see addict written all over me long before I had any kind of consequences. I got high all day, every day, but I was a pothead, so I didn't think it was a big deal. I ended up getting in trouble, failing a urine at my "good" job, the one I went to college for. I opted for "treatment" partly to stay in good graces with the company - and I let my friend introduce me to the 12-step world. But seeing the wreckage around me, I always felt I didn't belong, and I was always on the fence.

Fast forward another 3 years,when I had my second child. I took the Percocets - and asked for more. I had been downsized from my professional job just before I had my first child. So I went from full-time professional to full time mommy, which I know some people dream of that, but for me it was a slap in the face. I took a job as a child advocate in Child Protection court, where I had to deal with some truly horrible things, all while the non-profit who paid my salary crashed and burned, almost destroying everyone affiliated with them. Then I ended up caring for my extremely difficult grandmother with Alzheimers, and then my father was diagnosed with a fatal illness and my mother chose to pretend it wasn't happening. So it was a bad time.

I became a full blown pill head, hydro, oxy, dilauded - my husband got in a motorcycle accident and that kept me in drugs for months. I kept calling his doctors saying how much pain he was in, and then went down and picked up the refills for myself. As laws got tighter and pills got harder to get I started first with poppy pod tea, and then actually brewing my own batches of extremely potent laudanum in my kitchen. When the DEA finally caught on to that business and the prices doubled and tripled - I went on my first maintenance drug, Tramadol. It didn't have the super opiate effect of the drugs I preferred, but I was long past ever feeling euphoria anyway. But it did have enough mu agonist to keep me out of WD. And it gave me a ton of energy.

First I got it over the Internet, and then I found a doctor who actually believed it was the "safe, non-addictive alternative" to opiates. He gave me Ultram which you could crush, releasing 300mg at once, which I loved. I remember even causing a controversy in his office about it. I tried to get one of my many early refills, but ended up with one of my Dr.s PA's. She was on to me right away. She said she knew people who went to rehab for that stuff. She started looking at my prescription history and confronted the Doctor. He dismissed her and gave me what I wanted. My tolerance to it grew and I was up to 700mg/day - and was sick without it. Later in this story when I told my doc I was addicted to it he dismissed me, too.

I didn't mean to write a book, but this is kind of cathartic. I decided to wean off Tramadol on my own. I was at the seizure threshold every day, and all it did for me was keep me from being sick, plus I was irritable as hell to my kids and I hated myself. I got onto a forum much like this one, with a lot of supportive people. I weaned myself off. Problem is, I was sick, lethargic, in a fog & miserable (Tramadol is also a SNRI, like Effexor, so you have that WD at the same time). Whenever I HAD to function I took a Tramadol and I was OK. So I was at a crossroads - I could have stuck it out, GOTTEN HELP, and recovered or I could have slipped back onto it.

Then I learned about the miracle drug Suboxone. I thought because it was a "partial" agonist that meant it was weak. And the dosages? 4-32mg a day? That didn't sound like much. I read a lot, but it was mostly on RB's website, which makes it sound like a Panacea. Here's something else: when I went to my first Sub doc I asked him about people getting off of it. He told me, honestly, that a lot of people get down to 1mg and can't get any lower. I DIDN'T GET IT! I thought it sounded kind of funny. Surely, you can get off 1mg of something! So I didn't take it seriously. And then, BONUS!, Sub got me quite high, of course, because I was off the drugs when I started. So for me, Suboxone actually becomes another chapter in my addiction story.

I was able to wean off of Tramadol, and I had years clean in NA before, so I had the tools and I knew what to do. I honestly believe I could have gotten clean without Sub, and if I had stuck with it I would have over 3 years right now. But it's a big IF. The truth is, I love opiates, and you never know what could have happened.

Good topic, Romeo.
Edit: I decided to add this, because some of you already know that I snorted heroin. That was AFTER I went off Sub the first time. To me that means that Suboxone put my tolerance through the roof. So when I decided to "try" a few painkillers weeks after going off Sub they didn't work, so I had to up the ante. Someone else might interpret it to mean that that was what I was headed for anyway, and if I hadn't gone on Sub I might be a full blown IV addict by now. I just don't know and never will.


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 Post subject: Clean or Not
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:42 pm 
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This is something I've thought about many times over the years I've been on Suboxone. IMO, either I would have died or got clean if there was no such thing as Suboxone.

What I mean by that is, I am an alcoholic. Haven't taken a drink since '87 and it is due to the rooms of AA and a few special people who took me under their wing to sobriety. For ten years I was in a revolving door with AA meetings. Desperate to get sober but not being able to stop the intense cravings to drink. The way I finally got sober was similar to other stories of alkies. I finally hit a bottom low enough to warrant a complete surrender of my own will. Actually it was the other way around. I had given up the struggle of managing my alcohol intake and just threw in the towel and said to myself that I'll just not care and drink to my hearts content. It was then that the obsession to drink was taken away.

I tell my alcoholic story because I know that there was no way for me to hit another bottom w/o dying or coming close. The obsession to use opiates is still huge inside me and only Sub manages to keep it at bay.

Before I ever heard of Suboxone, I figured that the only way to come out of this addiction alive was to overdose and be put into an inpatient rehab facility. No way did I have the tools to do it myself. I did try to go back to AA and did manage to stay clean for about two weeks and then it would get worse. In my brain I was trying to hit some kind of bottom so I could re-experience what I did with my drinking and have the obsession go away. It was not to be.

Today, three years later, I still don't know if I'll ever get off the Bup. Getting sick last year took all my strength and will away to taper and jump. For those who weren't here last year I was down to 1 mg and was planning my jump in the near future until I got a little case of cancer that totally took away any will to stop. Who knows what the future will hold for me. If I live my life on Suboxone, so be it. I tolerate it well and have had no bad side effects whatsoever. Today I am on 6 mg's.

Tom

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:24 pm 
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I wont write a long post or debate what the others have said simply for myself i would be clean 100% if i never started suboxone.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:26 pm 
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Personally I think getting on it originally was a rather stupid idea. It did help, but more so to maintain my finacial responsibilitys. Then wrecked them again with this emotionless.

I feel I should have jumped off the oxy like I had done previously. I was too scared of going through the W/D again. Convincing myself I'd lose everything being in that state for a week.

I personally regret not just saying fuck this and dealing with the withdrawals, since it was even harder a year+ later.

Love hate relationship! ;)

WTBF


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:09 pm 
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My answer is maybe. When I made the decision (out of desperation and withdrawal) to reach out for help, I completely outed myself. I told all of my friends, my family (including my then 13 year old son), my pastor, my pain doctor, my regular doctor, etc. I spilled it. I didn't tell them that I have a little problem, I laid it all out. I apologized to everyone I had stolen medication from, etc. I didn't want to give myself any regress.

At the time, I hadn't heard of suboxone, but I immediately started exploring my options. I didn't know if I was going to end up at an in-patient facility, or in out-patient therapy. The first two places I called, which had both in-patient and out-patient options, told me to find a doctor who was an addictionologist and who prescribed suboxone. The first doctor I called was full, but his office recommended my current doctor. I started reading up on suboxone, including peoples' stories you would expect to see on Subsux. I found lots of information and the picture became clearer about how suboxone might work well in my situation.

So I had an initial appointment with my current sub doctor. His website had a section for suboxone patients with a lot of information. For example, it cautioned that the first appointment with the doc would not include induction, so I needed to plan ahead with my current d.o.c.. My appointment was 3 weeks out and I felt panicky about the fact that I was all out of percocet. Despite having outed myself with my pain doctor, he was very compassionate and agreed to prescribe me enough percocet so that I wouldn't withdraw until right before the suboxone induction. I gave the meds to my husband who doled them out to me until I was induced.

My doctor wanted me to detox for 48 hours prior to induction, which I now know may have been a little excessive. He gave me clonidine, an anti-nausea drug, and xanax to help me deal with the detox. On the day of my induction I felt completely terrible, then I walked out of his office feeling back to my normal, pre-percocet self. It was night and day.

The reason I say that "maybe" in answer to this question is that, although suboxone has worked extremely well for me, I would be doing my best to be on some path to recovery in absence of sub, because I had told EVERYONE about my addiction.

I have seen it repeated several times on this site that suboxone should only be for people who have tried everything else, perhaps multiple times, and have failed at these other attempts at recovery. I don't necessarily agree with that. I have used my time on suboxone to go to therapy, and to remember what it's like not to crave opiates, and how to find ways to be happy and productive without percocet/opiates. Suboxone has worked well for my brain chemistry, my body, and my recovery. The thought that these benefits would not have been available to me if I had been required to try everything else first, makes me feel disheartened and scared for those that would automatically take that advice.

Still, I understand why some people take on this stance. The stakes are very high. If you are one of the people like Bboy who feels wrecked by sub, or like WTBF who feels emotionless on sub, I totally understand why you have to warn people away from sub. We can't tell the percentage of people who do well on this drug, versus those who have major problems. Any evidence here is anecdotal and possibly skewed to people who have legitimate complaints.

I am thankful for sub because I didn't have to disrupt my family's life in order to start and continue on it. I am thankful that it has been pretty easy for me to taper down to 3 mg, when I know I could never have tapered my percocet use. So far I'm fortunate enough to be a suboxone success story. But who knows what the future holds?

Amy

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:03 am 
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I have to admit, I'm pretty surprised that everyone isn't 100% sure they would still be hopeless addicts if it weren't for the help Suboxone provided them.

I understand everyone's response and I'm not trying to "one up" anyone or anything stupid like that, but in the months leading up to me finding Suboxone, I was fully prepared to put a bullet in my head. Not a little bullet.....a .357 to make sure the job was done right. I had never been suicidal in my life prior to that, haven't really been since (except day 10 of my Sub wd).

It wasn't that my life was falling apart or anything like that.....it was the absolute terror that wd from OC's held for me. I had never had any long term success in detoxing off opiates before because the fucking wd just wouldn't go away and OC wd makes everything 10 times worse. I had already been through what for me was too many wd attempts and I wasn't about to go through the grand-daddy of them all again, just to fail.

In the months leading up to me finding Suboxone, OC's had become more and more rare because of all the media attention. In my mind, I knew it was just a matter of time until the inevitable happened....no more OC's. Then it was gonna be game over for me.

Amber is right, I've never told my whole story here. It's mostly because of the .357 thing and I didn't want everyone to think I was a loon cuz I was about to end my life.

Until now, I honestly thought that all of us addicts had reached a similar spot to me before getting on Suboxone.....I just thought you guys didn't talk about it for the same reason I didn't wanna talk about it.

I really enjoyed reading most all of your replies, thanks for taking the time to respond and share. Hmmm, now I sound like an NA meeting. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:43 am 
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[quote="Romeo"]I have to admit, I'm pretty surprised that everyone isn't 100% sure they would still be hopeless addicts if it weren't for the help Suboxone provided them.

I understand everyone's response and I'm not trying to "one up" anyone or anything stupid like that, but in the months leading up to me finding Suboxone, I was fully prepared to put a bullet in my head. Not a little bullet.....a .357 to make sure the job was done right. I had never been suicidal in my life prior to that, haven't really been since (except day 10 of my Sub wd).

It wasn't that my life was falling apart or anything like that.....it was the absolute terror that wd from OC's held for me. I had never had any long term success in detoxing off opiates before because the fucking wd just wouldn't go away and OC wd makes everything 10 times worse. I had already been through what for me was too many wd attempts and I wasn't about to go through the grand-daddy of them all again, just to fail.

In the months leading up to me finding Suboxone, OC's had become more and more rare because of all the media attention. In my mind, I knew it was just a matter of time until the inevitable happened....no more OC's. Then it was gonna be game over for me.

Amber is right, I've never told my whole story here. It's mostly because of the .357 thing and I didn't want everyone to think I was a loon cuz I was about to end my life.

Until now, I honestly thought that all of us addicts had reached a similar spot to me before getting on Suboxone.....I just thought you guys didn't talk about it for the same reason I didn't wanna talk about it.

I really enjoyed reading most all of your replies, thanks for taking the time to respond and share. Hmmm, now I sound like an NA meeting. :wink:[/quote


I here what your saying 110% Romeo. Right before I started suboxone maybe two weeks a dr told me I would die before my 21st bday at the rate I was going. My kidneys were shutting down my heart was working way to hard and I was inches away from becoming a diabetic. And I never had to worry about getting my Oxys considering I was getting 90 80s a month on top of my fentora at the end of addiction. So that made things even harder to quit because I never had to worry about my next fix. But when I heard the Dr say the words you are going to die scared me shitless and I truly think that would of been enough to get me in inpatient treatment. But that's when I talked to a old using buddy whose life was so great due to this miracle drug called suboxone. And with this you can do a rehab type recovery with this drug as a outpatient, as soon as I heard that word outpatient it was wrap fuck rehab I want to get on this drug so I did. Before I type this next line Please note this is solely my personal expierence, as a addict I wanted to take the easy way out and suboxone allowed me to do so. If I never talked to that kid I would of got clean the hard way. And my parents were ready to have me commited to a 6 month inpatient facility in Utah. And if I didn't go or stay clean they were going to cut all ties with me so I would of had serious shit to deal with. But I convinced them to let me try this new drug called suboxone.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:39 am 
Yeah i would have been clean because prison would have been my next step.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:59 pm 
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I'm not confident that I would be clean without my suboxone treatment. There is a possibility of course but based on how many times I tried (and failed) without suboxone, I just don't know if I would have made it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:39 pm 
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Romeo - We already thought you were a loon :lol:

I have to say I've got no idea where I'd be. My overconfidence on my ability to stop oxy makes me think I could have, but my absolute desperation at the time to find something to make me feel normal makes me think I'd be broke, homeless, and probably dead or arrested.

I'll pretend for my ego that I would have been fine though. There are certain days where I remember my ultimate lows on oxy that make me feel otherwise though. I had developed into a devious lying, stealing, cheating the system machine to get my fix. *Shiver*, fuck those days.

My need to nod also makes me think I'd probably have been experimenting with other things by now. I'd probably of gotten over my fear of needles real quick once I couldn't afford to sniff my way out of withdrawals.

Scary thoughts.

Anyhow, previous post aside - thanks suboxone.

WTBF


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:01 am 
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100% no. i would not be clean today. actually i am doubting my cleanliness LOL bc i had to recently start taking Ativan for these attacks i have been having. I know that i had tried re hab counseling na been to prison for a year and tried to quit cold turkey hundreds of times. only to get to day 3 at the most before giving in. I know i would not be clean from opiates bc of this uncontrollable voice to use. it controlled every thing i did every decision, plan all of it. so even if i made it through the pain of the withdrawal i would still had that voice so .... i know i would be using, jail, or dead. romeo you are not loon for thinking about that cause i would too think of it wondering if i would feel better lol and my family would too. but now everything has changed. as far as the obsesession of using and the whole lifestyle that goes with it.


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