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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 10:24 pm 
Ok. I know this is a discussion group, and we are all here to discuss Suboxone in many ways and in great detail. Each person in here handles their recovery differently. Some people are very, very new to Suboxone and may not have even heard the word "Suboxone" until a few days ago. They may really need some solid guidance. They may not have the resources that a lot of us have, like insurance, or a good doctor, family/friend support, money, etc. Do we really want to encourage someone to SNORT suboxone? Someone reading that may have never snorted anything in their lives, and we're going to get them started on that? Head down that road?

Overall, bluemorning really seems educated, and experienced, and VERY sincere with wanting to help rescueA. So, the post DOES deserve to remain posted. I just have to shake my head at the thought of suggesting to someone that wants to be clean and sober, to SNORT anything.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 11:52 am 
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OxyPatrick wrote:
Ok. I know this is a discussion group, and we are all here to discuss Suboxone in many ways and in great detail. Each person in here handles their recovery differently. Some people are very, very new to Suboxone and may not have even heard the word "Suboxone" until a few days ago. They may really need some solid guidance. They may not have the resources that a lot of us have, like insurance, or a good doctor, family/friend support, money, etc. Do we really want to encourage someone to SNORT suboxone? Someone reading that may have never snorted anything in their lives, and we're going to get them started on that? Head down that road?

Overall, bluemorning really seems educated, and experienced, and VERY sincere with wanting to help rescueA. So, the post DOES deserve to remain posted. I just have to shake my head at the thought of suggesting to someone that wants to be clean and sober, to SNORT anything.


I can certainly understand where you're coming from, and if you'd like, I have no problem removing that part of the post.

It's nothing I would recommend to anyone long-term, I just thought that it might be worth mentioning in regards to a short-term taper, due to the increased bioavailability.

There is a better option that slipped my mind while writing that post though, one that I sometimes use myself.

The bioavailability for sublingual Suboxone is, if I recall correctly, about 20-25%. The bioavailability of intranasal buprenorphine is ~50%.

There is a middle ground, however. Ethanol (plain old alcohol) increases the sublingual bioavailability to about 50%, making it as effective a route-of-administration as intranasal.

By dissolving the suboxone in 1-2ml of ethanol, and then holding the solution under your tongue, you can double the bioavailability compared to sublingual without ethanol, which can help greatly when you have a limited supply of buprenorphine.

If you're wary of using alcohol, even in such small amounts, you could simply use mouthwash (which usually has 25-30% ethanol) as you normally would, swish swish gargle gargle spit, and, without rinsing out your mouth, place the crushed Suboxone under your tongue. While this doesn't seem to be as effective as an ethanol solution, it does IME increase the bioavailability significantly.

Again, in hindsight if anyone is interested in alternate ROA for buprenorphine, there are other places where there is plenty of discussion on the subject, so I may have been out of line mentioning intranasal use here. Just send me a PM or a reply here and I'll gladly remove that part of the above post.

EDIT: and to answer the question posed in your title, "is snorting REALLY a good idea?" I think we all know the answer is no. Aside from the fact that you're snorting a pill, which for many will keep them in their 'addictive mindset', there is the matter of putting all that junk up your nose... not only buprenorphine, but naloxone, binders, sugars, starches, coloring, flavoring, etc... it's certainly something I would advise against if only for the physical damage aspect of it... and orange snot is not attractive! :)


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 9:52 pm 
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Well I woke up feeling pretty awful so I took 2mg at about 10am. I had an awful headache today so I took some Excedrine at about 3pm. By 5pm I started feeling faint, shaky and and nauseous. I checked beforehand to see if acetaminophen interacted with Suboxone and I didn't find anything however I feel like I am having a bad drug interaction. First of all, how do I deal with the headaches and second of all why do I feel like I am going to faint almost 9hrs after I took the 2mg of Suboxone? I can only assume that the Excedrine had an effect on the Suboxone....but I didn't start feeling this way until 2hrs after I took the headache meds. Sigh....before the Excedrine I felt pretty good aside from the headache!


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 11:53 am 
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Have you ever used Suboxone in the past?

The first few days a person uses it, they can actually get a strong opiate effect from it, including feeling light-headed.

The headache, if it returns everytime you save suboxone, may mean you are extra-sensitive to the naloxone in the pills. If possible, you would be better of with subutex, otherwise you'll just have to treat them with otc pain meds and hope they go away.

I doubt there is any interaction with anything in excedrin.

For both the headache and lessening withdrawal, you might want to try spacing your 2mg dose out into 1mg in the morning and 1mg in the afternoon.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 8:14 pm 
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Thanks that's just what I did! I took 1mg this morning and am starting to feel rather achy so I may take .5-1mg this evening. This is my first time and it isn't unusual for me to have side-effects from prescriptions. 1mg at a time seems to be what's best for me. Will I feel withdrawals from Suboxone when I go down to 1mg or .5mg a day? I want to be done with it by Sat if I can. I just hope I don't start to feel dependent on this as well.


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 1:38 am 
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RescueA wrote:
Thanks that's just what I did! I took 1mg this morning and am starting to feel rather achy so I may take .5-1mg this evening. This is my first time and it isn't unusual for me to have side-effects from prescriptions. 1mg at a time seems to be what's best for me. Will I feel withdrawals from Suboxone when I go down to 1mg or .5mg a day? I want to be done with it by Sat if I can. I just hope I don't start to feel dependent on this as well.


people commonly make the mistake that after so much time has passed, they've "become dependent on Suboxone" or "become addicted to Suboxone".

The truth is, since Bupe is an opioid, you've already got the addiction. Suboxone just makes it easier to taper this addiction.

So in reality, you're already dependent on Suboxone. The upside to using it to detox and withdraw is the ease of lowering dosages of bupe. You won't feel withdrawals as intensely as you know them, but there will be many familiar, if less intense, symptoms: namely yawning, watering eyes, and for me the worst is aching, restless legs.

No vomiting, and less intestinal distress, however.

Hopefully tomorrow you can get down to 1.5mg total for the day.


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 2:13 pm 
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I woke up today feeling the worst yet. I already took about 1mg and am still feeling a little achy. Is this because I usually withdraw the worst on day 4 from oxy? Or does that make no sense since I am still on an opiod? Honestly the restlessness and bone aches are what make me crazy during withdrawal. If I can avoid that at all costs that would be nice lol. I think I will take the other .5mg right now and try to make it through the day/night. I know I may get crucified for this but I have been taking .25 of Xanax every night and it reallllly helps. My muscles were knotting up last night and I really wished I had some muscle relaxers... which I hear they give all this stuff in detox? So it must be for a reason. Any other suggestions to get through this with ease would be great! Thanks!


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 2:19 pm 
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Xanax (alprazolam) is a muscle relaxer, but its not its primary use (I mean, probably not the best for relaxing muscles)

0.25mg is a pretty low dose of xanax, BUT BE CAREFUL MIXING SUB AND BENZOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It can KILL YOU

This is why its good to have a doctor.. Because something bad could happen and if you went to the ER the police will be there with you asking 'where did you get it, where did you get it?'

Maybe day 4 would be worse.. You'd have to do the dose conversion. If your dose is lower you will have withdrawal. You may have had a dose reduction (oxy dose was ?) so in that case some withdrawal may be there. But the sub should be helping regardless.

Maybe get some clonidine (prolly can't now if they did a tox screen on you). I was able to get it because I have horribly high BP and I just asked for it and my primary gave me craploads of it. It helps a little as well.

I never found anything to really help with the RLS though.. It WILL pass. Just remember that any of this is not going to last forever and try to stay positive.. I've heard that warm baths/showers help a bit so hey what do you have to lose?


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 12:34 am 
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RescueA wrote:
I woke up today feeling the worst yet. I already took about 1mg and am still feeling a little achy. Is this because I usually withdraw the worst on day 4 from oxy? Or does that make no sense since I am still on an opiod? Honestly the restlessness and bone aches are what make me crazy during withdrawal. If I can avoid that at all costs that would be nice lol. I think I will take the other .5mg right now and try to make it through the day/night. I know I may get crucified for this but I have been taking .25 of Xanax every night and it reallllly helps. My muscles were knotting up last night and I really wished I had some muscle relaxers... which I hear they give all this stuff in detox? So it must be for a reason. Any other suggestions to get through this with ease would be great! Thanks!


such low doses of xanax and bupe are perfectly safe, but jamez is right: you need to be really careful mixing bupe and benzo if you're taking any significant amount of either... but since the bupe is barely holding your WD at bay, and it's only .25mg of xanax, you'll be fine.

whatever you do, don't mix any booze in though.

bupe is not a miracle drug. You still have to pay piper, so to speak, one way or another, one day or another. Sub just makes it easier, smoother and more prolonged so you don't have to do it all at once. No matter what you do though, unless you get on bupe for maintenance for the rest of your life, you will experience all the withdrawal symptoms you're used to.

the bupe just smooths out the steep cliff of oxy withdrawal into a gentler (but longer) glide.


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 1:21 pm 
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jamez70 wrote:
Maybe day 4 would be worse.. You'd have to do the dose conversion. If your dose is lower you will have withdrawal. You may have had a dose reduction (oxy dose was ?) so in that case some withdrawal may be there. But the sub should be helping regardless.


I was up to 90mg by the time I started posting again. Yesterday I took 1.5mg of suboxone which is equal to what as far as oxy goes? Today started with about .75mg. Tomorrow I will try .5mg. I think I am going to "jump off" after that because we are staying with friends this weekend that have no idea about my issue and I will most likely have some beers. I imagine most of you are in recovery and wondering why I would start drinking after this but I have no intention of quitting everything. I have a long drug history and the only thing I can't control is opiates. I actually had no issue taking vicodin here and there for pain either...it was the oxy that got me. It was too close to my whole heroin experience, the snorting really triggers something for me.

Anyway...how much luck do you think I will have with .5 tomorrow and possibly nothing Saturday. I know you are all going to jump on me for this question but would it be a huge deal to take .5 and drink a little? I used to drink large amounts on 60mg of vicodin (yes very stupid) and I was fine. What is .5 of suboxone equivalent to? I most likely won't take any that day but now I am afraid I will be in withdrawal if I jump off after tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 1:21 pm 
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jamez70 wrote:
Maybe day 4 would be worse.. You'd have to do the dose conversion. If your dose is lower you will have withdrawal. You may have had a dose reduction (oxy dose was ?) so in that case some withdrawal may be there. But the sub should be helping regardless.


I was up to 90mg by the time I started posting again. Yesterday I took 1.5mg of suboxone which is equal to what as far as oxy goes? Today started with about .75mg. Tomorrow I will try .5mg. I think I am going to "jump off" after that because we are staying with friends this weekend that have no idea about my issue and I will most likely have some beers. I imagine most of you are in recovery and wondering why I would start drinking after this but I have no intention of quitting everything. I have a long drug history and the only thing I can't control is opiates. I actually had no issue taking vicodin here and there for pain either...it was the oxy that got me. It was too close to my whole heroin experience, the snorting really triggers something for me.

Anyway...how much luck do you think I will have with .5 tomorrow and possibly nothing Saturday. I know you are all going to jump on me for this question but would it be a huge deal to take .5 and drink a little? I used to drink large amounts on 60mg of vicodin (yes very stupid) and I was fine. What is .5 of suboxone equivalent to? I most likely won't take any that day but now I am afraid I will be in withdrawal if I jump off after tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 5:36 pm 
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RescueA wrote:
jamez70 wrote:
Maybe day 4 would be worse.. You'd have to do the dose conversion. If your dose is lower you will have withdrawal. You may have had a dose reduction (oxy dose was ?) so in that case some withdrawal may be there. But the sub should be helping regardless.


I was up to 90mg by the time I started posting again. Yesterday I took 1.5mg of suboxone which is equal to what as far as oxy goes? Today started with about .75mg. Tomorrow I will try .5mg. I think I am going to "jump off" after that because we are staying with friends this weekend that have no idea about my issue and I will most likely have some beers. I imagine most of you are in recovery and wondering why I would start drinking after this but I have no intention of quitting everything. I have a long drug history and the only thing I can't control is opiates. I actually had no issue taking vicodin here and there for pain either...it was the oxy that got me. It was too close to my whole heroin experience, the snorting really triggers something for me.

Anyway...how much luck do you think I will have with .5 tomorrow and possibly nothing Saturday. I know you are all going to jump on me for this question but would it be a huge deal to take .5 and drink a little? I used to drink large amounts on 60mg of vicodin (yes very stupid) and I was fine. What is .5 of suboxone equivalent to? I most likely won't take any that day but now I am afraid I will be in withdrawal if I jump off after tomorrow.


I understand, I still like to drink once in a while, and like smoking pot still. It's just oxy/heroin that have a hold on me.

You'll be fine having a few beers on Suboxone if you're only taking a little Sub, like you are, as long as you DONT TAKE ANY XANAX. Bupe + Booze + Xanax = respiratory depression and cessation of breathing in your sleep. Trust me, it happened to me... only reason I'm not dead is because my girlfriend was lying next to me and happened to wake up when she heard the death rattle.

I'd think it's better to stay on sub if you're staying with friends who don't know about your addiction, rather than being in withdrawal in front of them... but that's just me. Jumping at 1.5 won't be easy, and you WILL be in withdrawal without Suboxone. I wouldn't jump at any higher than .5mg per day.

As far as equivalency, there really is no easy conversion, since bupe is a partial-agonist, oxy is a full agonist. There's really no way to convert bupe doses to oxy doses at all, sorry. It's more about subjective relief. With pure agonists, say Oxycodone, 60mg is 2x as effective as 30mg, and 120mg is 2x as effective as 60mg.

With bupe, it's not linear like that. While 2mg may be 2x as effective as 1mg, 4mg might only be 1.5x as effective as 2mg, and 8mg might only be 1.25x as effective as 4mg, and so on. It's a complicated curve, so you can't just say X mg of bupe = Y mg of _______.


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:36 pm 
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Maybe it would be best to take .5 this weekend. I plan on taking .5 tomorrow and see how I feel. Then 1-2 more days of .5 then I am done. I have no intention of mixing the bup/xanax/alcohol...I am mainly using the xanax to sleep. I will definitely use the xanax after I quit the suboxone because it really helped me when I tried to detox on oxy with nothing before. (unfortunately I was back on vicodin a week later!) I really have faith that I will do it this time because I am planning another pregnancy. If that isn't motivation to stay on the straight and narrow I don't know what is! Wish me luck!

Thank you all again for guiding me through this!!


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:36 pm 
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RescueA wrote:
Maybe it would be best to take .5 this weekend. I plan on taking .5 tomorrow and see how I feel. Then 1-2 more days of .5 then I am done. I have no intention of mixing the bup/xanax/alcohol...I am mainly using the xanax to sleep. I will definitely use the xanax after I quit the suboxone because it really helped me when I tried to detox on oxy with nothing before. (unfortunately I was back on vicodin a week later!) I really have faith that I will do it this time because I am planning another pregnancy. If that isn't motivation to stay on the straight and narrow I don't know what is! Wish me luck!

Thank you all again for guiding me through this!!


Just be careful with xanax... it doesn't take long before you trade an uncomfortable addiction for a lethal one.

Good luck! You say you're planning another pregnancy... how many lil'uns do you have already?


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 1:52 pm 
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RescueA wrote:
Okay it has now been 45min and I feel much better. I think 2mg is a good dose for me. I forgot to mention earlier that I am 100lbs also...not sure if that effects the dose or not. So my next dose should be when I wake up? If I take it when I wake and start feeling bad in the evening should I take more or just wait until the next day? I think I have decided against snorting only because my nose has had enough...but if you think it would be the most effective maybe I should?


Greetings....I hope you are doing well. I know this is day's late....but maybe in the future
it would help you or others reading. From what I have found, I've read the bio-availability
in intranasal (snorting) is up to 45-50% compared to @ 30-35% sublingual.

To tell you the truth, I was in a similar situation....I got a few Subs to help in case of WDs
from Oxys....ONE pill lasted me three days....and I was so impressed, I recently made
an appointment and now am on Suboxone full-time!

When/if you are ready....this treatment HELPS!


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:16 pm 
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I just need to say this:
Taking into account the reasons we take Suboxone, I just don't think it's a good idea to suggest snorting it.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 4:30 pm 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
I just need to say this:
Taking into account the reasons we take Suboxone, I just don't think it's a good idea to suggest snorting it.


That's a bit of an over-generalization. "We" take Suboxone for many different reasons.

Some people take it to help them get off of opiates. some people take it b/c they're broke and can't support their addiction for some time, but have no intention of quitting. Some people (opiate-naive people) take it just to get high.

There's no one reason "we" take Suboxone.
Every individual has their own reasons for doing what they do.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 4:38 pm 
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Ok - that's why I said "reasonS" (plural), as in many different reasons.
This isn't a 'using Suboxone to get high' site. It's about recovery.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, in fact I won't go round and round about this. I (& and I believe it's been said by others here as well) just don't feel it's wise to make such a suggestion. That's all I'm saying.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:30 pm 
Ok. I've already commented on this topic, but I'm going to do it again.

I COMPLETELY understand the science behind snorting Suboxone, and why you would suggest it to someone. That's great. Here's the problem - People are coming to this website desperate for help, understanding, and guidance. Some people are scared, confused, emotional, and fragile. Then they're going to click through a few topics and find that we suggest you snort your Suboxone.

I just think that's using poor judgement. MOST of us are on Suboxone because we are drug addicts, and we want to become clean and sober, and get our lives back.

Please kids...DON'T snort your Suboxone. Stick it under your tongue like everyone else.

Patrick


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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 12:16 am 
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I have taken Xanax on and off because I suffer from anxiety attacks. Sometimes I get dependent on it for a few weeks and sometimes I take it just to help me sleep here and there. Xanax is MUCH easier to stop than Oxy so I'm not worried about needing it for a few weeks to get past this.

I have one beautiful little boy and hope to start expanding my family soon. This was just a big bump in the road and I am ready to deal with life again on life's terms. My son has Autism and sometimes the pain in my heart becomes so strong that I try to stop it in anyway possible. Oxy was definitely the wrong way to do so because of my history with opiates but you live and you learn. I have dedicated the last two years of my life to recovering him, researching day and night and stressing (to say the least) about what I should do next to cure him. I try to deal the best I can but my lack of support makes it hard to stay strong 100% time. I should definitely take up meditation!


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