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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:00 am 
I had a childhood friend go to his suboxone doc the other day. Now keep in mind my friend and me get along very well and share alot of common interests. Get what my friend supposedly was told by this doctor.

He was told by a doctor, who RX's suboxene, but is not an addiction specialist(though he treats a lot of opiate addicts, that Buprenorphine, at high doses or for long periods of time, will cause PERMANENT DOWN REGULATION, in some patients, in as little as 90 days at the Mu and possibly Delta opiod receptors.

For those that don't know what this means, it means that subs cause permanent brain damage, and that the pharmaceutical companies covered it up, for as long as they could, because once you end up in this situation, you have no choice but to stay on Subs (putting money in their pockets indefinitely), or go back to other opiates, if you EVER want to feel any joy or happiness, ever again. I'm not saying this will happen to EVERY patient, but it is a real possibility, and the longer you stick with it, or the higher your dose, the more likely it will happen increases.

Now do i think this is fact? I dunno, i really diddn't think bupe messes with the delta receptors as much as it does the mu receptors. Maybe this goes along the line of the nazis invented methadone, and it stays in your bones. lol, well methadone was invented by germans though. So who knows..

This really bothers me that the doctor mentioned this to him. The doctor he goes to use to be A "compassionate" doctor and would take care of people with other drugs besides suboxone. But he apparently eventually was forced to start putting people who need help on just bupe. I've had hunch that something about what high high dose of bupe does is not good for the receptors.

Anyone care to share anything regarding this? Please don't just post about how much you love suboxone and im paranoid. Or it's the old opiates that did the harm. Anything but this. If you can't tell.. I'm a self loathing sub user, trying to chip myself off. Trying...


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:47 pm 
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I really hope not.

For the last 8 years I've been complaining of living in an anhedonia like state where my emotions seemed destroyed and dampened and everything I remembered in life "before" this started just seems unbelievably bright and vibrant and alive. It's been a part of me every day of my life for almost 8 years, and I was not even sure if it was real or if I simply was stuck in some feeback loop of self awareness and psychosomatic weirdness. For 8 years I've been complaining to friends and family, and everyone just acts like I need to move on with life. My life stopped 8 years ago. My suboxone doctor has just acted like it's part of coming to terms with life after opiates, as if the glow of life could not compare with the glow of the opiate high, and I've just spoiled myself by hitting the reward button whenever I felt like it.

Not a day has gone by in this time that I don't sit and think about how it used to be, filled with envy when listening to someone speak of emotional satisfaction.

After I kicked oxys after about 3 years of purely recreational small time opiate use and then 2 years of heavy daily dependance, I made it about a year without replacing my addiction. After 6 months sober, I let myself buy an opiate every once in a while here or there, because it was the only time I could truly "feel" emotions. Even though I wonder if every tiny dose was just setting me back to the starting line of producing my own feelings again.

Then I discovered suboxone. Sadly after I had burned through 90 thousand dollars of life insurance money in those 2 years of oxy use. Suboxone let me sort of feel normal again I thought, it was a mild buzz I enjoyed that left me feeling satisfied for a long time without feeling like I was intoxicated. I took large amounts however to enjoy that subtle buzz, unaware of the ceiling effect. This was maybe 6 months of heavy use. I was getting it black market though, and hadn't redeveloped into a chemical dependency, as I was not taking it daily.

Eventually I was however taking it daily, it was a sort of dull synthetic replacement for what I once felt was normal, but it was infinitely better than the sobriety which ultimately offered me nothing but eternal and unending boredom and anxiety.
I often took 16 mg a day for several years, eventually getting a legit script of it. I've since tapered down to about 4mg a day but sometimes I splurge as if it's really going to do that much more. I'd say I've been taking subs now since 2009.

After getting used to the subs, I've still had that sense that my real emotions, the emotions I remembered having vividly, were hiding from me, and this wasn't just all in my head or a result or burning out my endorphin receptors or something.

So my anxiety finally get's so bad that I am approved for disability. Along with disability comes medicare, and that means access to health care providers.

In my lovely emotionally dead fog, it took me about 5-6 months to finally get around to choosing a doctor and going through the old routine of explaining "my problem". As usual, I get a curious look but nothing to go on regarding my "depression".

My general lab tests come back. Turns out I have low testosterone. A rate of 56 I believe was the number out of 300-5000 being "normal". I'd heard of this before on this forum, but for some reason never paid it much attention.

So I get my first dose injected in my thigh. a few days go by.

I'm not sure when it started, but I started feeling waves of breathtaking and intense emotion, actual depression, which I hadn't truly felt since I was a teenager, but also pleasure and interest in life.

Within another day or so, I woke up from what seemed like an 8 year coma. They were real, and the emotions were as powerful as I remembered they were, and they were clear and lucid and beautiful, everything opiates had stolen from me in my choice to push the reward button. Unfortunately, the mood swings bring powerful sadness and emotional pain in wild storms that fluctuate from profoundly nigh religious experiences to just being normal and happy about how good it feels to breath cool air in my nose and feel the breeze on my skin. The warmth of the sun on my face.

I am now about 10 days into that first injection, and I am in shock "my problem" isn't there.

The emotions I feel are often too intense to tolerate. In time I am sure to adapt and my levels should even out, but I am now not seeing a need for the subs at all. But I'm very worried about what you are saying.

I probably should have shared this story in the testosterone thread actually. Ick, mood swings, I must stop typing now.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:41 pm 
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I agree that suboxone sort of dulls parts of a person's personality..... It's an opiate so you have to expect that. But. To go as far to say that it causes permanent brain damage and that RB covered it up and all that.... Based on what another addict said their doctor told them..... Is nuts.


It doesn't do any of that. Nothing proves that. Lots disproves that.



Anywaysssssssssss.


I started testosterone today because my number was really low for a young guy. I'll keep this forum updated on my progress.

I hope it works as well for me as it did for you.



But. Please. Keep in mind. Suboxone effects us all differently. Don't take anything away from this forum as truth. Seriously. Most of it is bs. Lol.


The blog written by the doctor is the only thing written that I would put some faith in.


Just saying. Don't worry yourself..... Especially coming from the guy who wrote this stuff..... Based on crap!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:48 pm 
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I would rate the level of significance and meaning in my life testosterone has changed with finding out an afterlife is real, find out intelligent sentient aliens exist and are friendly, the ability to fly, or the discovery of how to prolong my own lifespan.

However the mood swings are absolutely insane at first, and very powerful. I was actually writing that post to express skepticism, until I realized at the end that I was still taking subs while taking testosterone at the same time, so I couldn't really comment one way or the other, besides lecturing someone on the value of evidence.

So I quickly decided to wrap things up, and just went with " I hope not, that sounds scary" lol.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:48 pm 
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I noticed a big change with the Suboxone. This is my experience and opinion only. I feel like I do have a hard time expressing emptions sometimes and do feel less emotions. But I also have taken into consideration the wild mood swings I had while on narcs. I use to wonder if something was wrong and if I didn't show emotion anymore. I just think that I am able to better cope with it since I am not on narcotics. I am stable on Subs. Not up and down. I only notice the agitation, depression and irritation if I run out (due to expense). I am never out for more than 1 day. But the fear that comes from withdrawals sets me into a wild rage, crying, getting upset over silly things. I think the Sub allows me to better control myself and the fear I had of losing emotion, was just me getting control over them. Just my opinion. Something to think about though. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:32 am 
I think people claim this because if you take suboxone for 2-5 years you will develop endocrin problems, your not producing hormones anymore and that's why it's so important to have a plan for getting off of it...if your ready to stay on for life than you better be ready for a long dull lukewarm existence and hormone replacement therapy because the honeymoon is over after 2-5 years and then it's nothingness for life or two years of withdrawl and a lifetime of paws... IF YOUR GUNNA GET ON SUBOXONE MAKE A PLAN TO GET OFF DON'T USE IT MORE THAN 2 YEARS!!! You get a 2 year window where recovery is still an option after subs and you better take advantage if you ever wanna be without opiats in this life..,


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:36 pm 
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I feel so whole again with testosterone therapy I'm moving towards getting off of subs now, but I already trashed my endocrine system with opiates before I ever tried a suboxone. I believe the condition being debated about in the field currently is called Opioid Androgen Deficiency Disorder. I went over a year within a semi emotionless haze after kicking them myself, and only started taking subs because it gave me a little spark in my life again and let me feel interested in the things that once interested me.

But I didn't plan to take them this long in the first place. I'm pretty freaked out about testosterone though. I hit my first T crash and had a psychotic breakdown, essentially. It took me almost 2 days to get out of that bad trip. We've messed with the doses to avoid that, but the idea I have to do this for life possibly, and that it will destroy my fertility and my testicles and destroy my own body's T production is frightening. If civilization collapses, I guess I'm doomed to a bleak and brain damaged emotional life. Or I become a mutant cannibal hunting and killing and eating the testes of others, so I can feel happy about a warm summer breeze like I used to.

I hope with the coming advances in science we learn to manipulate the endocrine system more precisely sometime in my lifetime. I wouldn't mind my own personal nanite swarm implanted in my brain regulating my hormones. And super vision.


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

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