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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:35 am 
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Hi,

I've been a lifelong substance abuser with opiates as my drug of choice. The closest Methadone clinic has been 100 miles away, much too far to drive. I've been buying Methadone and my tolerance has risen to where I'm doing 100mg a day. I've fallen into the routine of being able to buy enough to last me a week or so, spend the next 4-5 days in bed sleeping, then hunt for whatever I can get my hands on to take me through to the end of the month. Hydros or whatever. Sound familiar?

Anyway, I just found out that a local doctor is now writing scripts for Suboxone from a friend who is a patient. I've got 40 years invested in living this lifestyle so there's no chance that I'm ever going to get clean and stay that way for over a month, I've been through treatment more times than I care to say. I've had to taper myself off Methadone several times to avoid WD and at the dose I'm on now I get edema in my feet and legs so bad that I've actually had to stop Methadone and stay in bed for a week to let the swelling go down. Last, but not least, my best friend died from Methadone OD last month and that hit me pretty hard. He wasn't the first friend I've lost to Methadone either.

What I'm getting at is this sux. If I continue on this way I'm either going to end up in prison or dead, and like I said 12 Steps programs don't do it for me. I'd like to be able to get up in the morning, take my meds and be done with it. I'm not doing too bad right now but it could all go to hell in an instant.

I'm probably going to call and make an appt for myself but it will probably take a month to get in to see the dr. I'm on Medicaid and Medicare. Just making a doctors appt is a big step for me, I've gone years without seeing one.

I've also got Hep C and wonder is that will be an issue. I don't take any treatments for it. I try to stay away from Vicodin and the like due to the effects acetaminophen but pay for it when I don't.

I'm more than just a little apprehensive about my decision. I'm an addict without a doubt but am not physically addicted ATM. I'm worried about what might happen if something goes south and I have to go through WD. Methadone WD feels like I'm getting ready to die, literally, and is to much for me to take. From what I hear Sub is even worse. My friend said she ran out of Sub last month and didn't have any problem at all. If I could get away from buying pills off the street I wouldn't have much to worry about as far as going to jail so that's not really an issue.

She goes for her appt today and is going to turn me on to one to try. I know not to do a whole one and to let it sit under my tongue. I did a small amount of Methadone and some Hydros yesterday, a couple hydros this morning. Will taking to Sub late this afternoon have any reaction to that?

I'd just like to hear from some people who have been on it for a while. It would have to be better than what I put myself through now but it's a big decision to make.

YIA


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:02 pm 
Hey, I'm glad you decided to post your questions to this forum, you will get a lot of good answers here. You really need to be in moderate withdrawal to start Sub, usually 24 hours after short acting opiates like oxy, and even longer, like 36 hours after methadone. I would stongly advise you to be inducted under a doctor's supervision and not just take one from your friend. You sound like you'be been around the block as far as opiate addiction goes. Getting into a legitimate sub program might be just the answer you're looking for.
Best of luck,
Lilly


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:22 pm 
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Thanks for answering.

I don't have a physical dependency on Methadone right now. I've been addicted several times over the past few years and tapered myself off at 5mg every 3 days. Almost every time once I got down to the very end I would start back up again and have to do the whole thing over again, living my life by a schedule I'd made up on a calender. Even then, when I was taking a minimal dose it kept me from wanting to go on the hunt for other opiates. I don't want to get addicted again just to start Sub, and probably couldn't come up with enough to become physically dependent.

I did go ahead and make an appt with the doctor. They can't get me in till the last part of May. Years ago I drove to a Methadone clinic and they didn't want to start me because I didn't have a dependency at the time. I really hate to think that will be the story this time. I told the nurse I have a 40 year drug history and want to get away from this lifestyle. I don't see another way out. I hate to get another monkey on my back to do it, but it beats getting arrested and drying out in the slammer and I'd be right back at it as soon as I got out. That would really screw things up for me all around so I'm hoping this will go well for me.

I'm pretty sure I could stick to the program if I can just get accepted.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:39 pm 
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I sure hope you get it because I think it will help you. You do need to wait at least 24hurs since your last use because if you don't and take suboxone, then you will feel worse. I feel for you. It saved me so I am sure it will save you


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:10 pm 
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Hi IHTP -

I am a bit confused on your current posting, so I'll try and give you a little insight.

I think I saw where you are on 100mg a day of methadone? Or is that how much you take if you can get it?

Your biggest challenge as you look to suboxone (buprenorphine) will be getting your tolerance low enough on Methadone so that suboxone will stop your withdrawals. You can check other threads with methadone - but I believe you want or need to be at 30mg or less/day.

If you are able to take more methadone than that - or are tolerant to more than that amount - then I believe that you will feel much worse with suboxone. In another words, if you are ramped up on Methadone right now - and were to take a street sub - what would likely happen is that the suboxone (unless it is a tiny sliver) would attach itself to your 'opiate receptor' - thus kicking the Methadone off - and leaving you with Precipitated Withdrawal.

As you read through the forum, you will find that most people try to be tapered down on Methadone to 30mg or less - then most often try and move to regular 4 hour half life opiates - then after a couple weeks or more, take their last pill - wait 24 hours (mild/moderate withdrawal) - then start suboxone.

What made me nervous about your post was the possible thinking that suboxone and Methadone could co-exist in your system without issue. To the best of my understanding, any amount of suboxone over say 1mg will likely cause you problems if taken while currently taking other opiates. There is some discussion about taking a TINY amount of suboxone with opiates for surgery - but it is a balancing act. There is a new person on the forum - in this same category who tried suboxone straight from fentanyl patch (long acting). It was miserable.

BUT - if you do get your tolerance to the right level - and you follow a doctors induction protocol - you have a good chance to respond like I have. Which is a feeling of 'freedom!!' I now take an orange pill under my tongue once a day - legally - and I'm set for the whole day. Wonderful to feel normal!! Much smaller cravings, and an opportunity to get therapy and learn a different lifestyle.

I hope my 'opinions' (as I am NOT a doctor) - help somewhat. I suspect you will do quite well on suboxone - but it's not a good medicine to mess around with. Suboxone is unforgiving as an opiate - and has a 36 hour half life - so one wrong move is 2-5 days of recovery. That's why almost everyone here would likely recommend doing what you are doing with a doctor's supervision.

Keep us posted! -- LD


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:22 pm 
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LatheDude wrote:
Hi IHTP -

I am a bit confused on your current posting, so I'll try and give you a little insight.

I think I saw where you are on 100mg a day of methadone? Or is that how much you take if you can get it?


Currently I buy about 70 10mg Methadone tabs around the start of the month. I start off with about 70mg and take another 30mg later in the day. If truth be known I probably do more than that in a 24 hour period, closer to 120mg, but I just count it from day to day loosely. After a week I'm done.

Then when I run out I stay in bed recuperating for the next 5 days or so. I never really go to bed all the time I'm doing Methadone and sleep where I nod off. My feet and legs were so swollen this last time it hurt the top of my feet to walk and I could hardly get my shoes on and it's from sleeping sitting up.

After that I'm lucky if I can find any Methadone at all till the same person is good again. So right now I'm not physically addicted at all. I have to resort to whatever opiates I can find to get me by till then or I'm sitting around the house fixated on getting high. I smoke weed too but that's about it and that doesn't get me where I want to go.

I did 20mg Methadone and 30mg Hydrocodone yesterday and 20mg Hydro this morning about 8am. For a while I had access to as much Methadone as I could handle, but the situation has changed. People go to jail, move and yes, die.

The friend who goes to the doctor today was going to give me a couple of her pills to try out and I thought I'd try a quarter pill or a little less to start. Her BF said all he can handle is a sizth of a pill but his tolerance is very low right now. My tolerance to Methadone has risen threefold to where I was a few years ago. That's why I did the Hydros along with it yesterday, I hardly felt anything as it was.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:04 pm 
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Buddy, let me first say that you sound like the perfect candidate for Suboxone Maintenance. As far as Suboxone WD being worse than Methadone? I don't believe that for one second. Remember, Methadone itself is a FULL agonist with an equally long halflife as Buprenorphine. Buprenorphine is only a partial agonist, meaning it only affects certain receptors in your brain. Just enough to stop withdrawal symptoms, but not enough to give any noticeable euphoria, or opiate high. It does happen in some individuals but mainly due to tolerance. If you can eat a few vicodin and get an amazing high, you will probably feel suboxone for the first week or so of dosing. With you currently at 100mg of Methadone, I'm willing to bet you will NOT get any sort of high other than placebo. Just the way of the world. What it WILL do(once you're stabilized) is completely knock away your cravings, and make you feel NORMAL. Here's the best way I can describe it. Take your life, put it in a VCR, and hit rewind. Now you're back to the point before you ever touched an opiate. That's how it FEELS. For me anyway.

As far as "testing the waters" yourself, I'm going to have to say it's probably not a good idea. I mean, when it comes down to it, WE know out bodies best, and understand out tolerance to the fullest degree, but it's always better to be under the supervision of a doctor during your "induction" stage with suboxone. Now, as far as it being safe for you to take Suboxone hours after opiates? Absolutely not, and you WILL regret it. I have no experience with methadone, my DOC was Oxycodone/Contin which is a FAST acting opiate. Doesn't hang around long. I had to wait 24 hours before ingesting Suboxone. Reason being is, if I did not, I would of suffered from something called "Precipitated Withdrawal". I've had it happen once before(when I tried suboxone on the street, wasn't knowledgeable about it, and couldn't score my DOC) and it IS hell on earth. It is the absolute worst feeling you'll ever endure. Think of it like this, when withdrawaling from a short acting opiate, usually the symptoms gradually get worse as days progress. New symptoms start appearing, and it slowly gets worse. Not with precipitated withdrawal. Oh no. You will get hit with EVERY single symptom you could think of in a matter of minutes. You will feel like dying. You will probably be curled up in the fetal position(I was) begging for it to stop. It sucks and I wouldn't wish it on my worst of enemies. I'd actually prefer death than to experience that hellish nightmare again. It basically turns a 10 day detox in a 2 hour(or so) hell. Everything hits you at once, and much worse.

Here's what happens...when you ingest buprenorphine, it binds VERY tightly to the receptors that handle opiates. So tight that it competes for those receptors with other opiates, and WINS 99.9% of the time. So if you have opiate molecules still hung onto the receptors, the buprenorphine will go in and kick them all out, and claim it's throne at the receptors, thus sending you into abrupt withdrawal. It will last a couple hours, and subside. Still, it's NOT something you want to experience.

You want to be in mild to moderate withdrawal before taking Suboxone. This way your receptors are free of opiates and when the suboxone comes in, it will bind to those receptors and do it's work. Giving just enough opiate to keep you from withdrawaling, and making you feel like a normal person. You may feel a buzz from it, and you may not. What's certain is if you do get a buzz, it will go away after you're stabilized(few days). For me personally, I was happy when that buzz went away, because I had nothing to remind me of what an opiate high is like. It makes treatment that much easier for me. Like I said, for oxy, it took 24 hours to have it out of my system. With methadone, it will take longer. Methadone has a much longer half life and stores itself in your liver for later use(to the best of my knowledge). I hate to tell you this, but you're going to have to go through some hell, to get to heaven. You're going to have to face withdrawal.

And finally, the best advice I can give you is this, Do NOT give up on suboxone. People transferring from methadone to suboxone usually have a little bit more of a hard time than someone getting on suboxone from a short acting opiate. Methadone lingers. Oxy,Hydrocodone, and the like do not. The first couple days could be a little rough but you have to have some DETERMINATION, because the suboxone WILL work for you, you just have to keep faith. Just remember this, mg to mg, suboxone is stronger than methadone. I believe I read that 2mg is as strong as 30mg of methadone. It just works differently. Coming from a 100mg methadone tolerance, I would imagine you're going to get at least 8mg/day of suboxone, maybe more. At least until you're stabilized and reach the "ceiling". Once that happens, more or less of the drug will not cause any change in "opiate effect". Meaning, 4mg will work just as good as 8mg. So on and so forth. It's a little hard to wrap your head around, and I'm learning more every day, but one thing I will tell you is this. If you're ready to free yourself of addiction and all the hardships that come with it, Suboxone is your number one tool to get you there. I know you said you're not fond of step programs or therapy, and that's fine. Neither am I. But support is your #2 tool beside suboxone as far as keeping your addiction in remission. Whereever you get that support is up to you. I'm not REQUIRED to see a therapist or goto meetings, but if I ever feel that I'm slipping in anyway, I will take the necessary steps to turn around and keep pushing forward.


Edit: Here's another thing that I really suggest you do. Given that you have a month or so until you can be seen by a sub doctor, I would take this time to STOP taking methadone all together. Instead, switch to a short acting full agonist like Oxycodone or Hydrocodone. You want something with a short half life. Why you ask? Because the transition to suboxone will be 100% EASIER than it would be if you were coming from methadone. Trust me on this. What I would do is start taking the short acting opiate now. I would take just enough to be out of withdrawal. Not necessarily high, but just find the dosage that keeps you "held" throughout the day and you're not having any withdrawal what so ever. Something else I recommend is trying to taper the dose of short acting opiate gradually during the course of the month. Doing this will most likely result in you needing a less amount of suboxone to be "stable". Someone coming from a 120mg/day oxycodone habit is going to start out taking more suboxone than someone with a 60mg/day habit. So on and so forth. Now as far why it would be an easier transition to suboxone is this...The MAIN reason is the short half life. The shorter the half life, the less amount of time it's going to take for your receptors to be free of opiates. This means that you aren't going to have to suffer as long before you can take suboxone without suffering precipitated withdrawals. With a short acting opiate like the two I mentioned, 24 hours is usually enough time for most people. It was for me, it may not be for you. Rule of thumb is you need to wait AT LEAST 24 hours. Some can get away with less, but it all comes down to how each individual metabolizes the drug. It's best to play it safe and go 24 or more hours. Bottom line.

If you feel you need to remain on methadone, than I would highly recommend you get to a dose of 30mg or less before switching to suboxone to make things as easy as possible.


As for my personal experience, What I did was this.. Monday morning at 10:00am I took my last oxy dose of 40mg. By 11:00am Tuesday(25 hours post dose), my doctor told me I was in "moderate" withdrawal and gave me my first suboxone. I was A-OK. Within an hour, I felt like a changed person. So much that I ran out of the office jumping and screaming how awesome life is. You can have this same experience. Believe me. It's worth it, very much so. It can get a little pricey if you don't have insurance, but you can't put a price tag on getting back your LIFE. Fyi, I had a 150mg/day oxycodone habit. I started out with 8mg suboxone, than got bumped to 12mg, and by the end of the first week I got bumped one more time to 16mg/day and am currently stable on that dose. I will remain at 16mg for one more month, and than me and my doc will start lowering the dose from there. Nothing but positive thoughts over here.

Sorry for the lengthly post, but I really hope this helps you out bud. GOOD LUCK![b]


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:44 am 
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To me you sound like the perfect candidate for suboxone. The only catch is that you will want to consider what it would mean to get "re-addicted" which really in the case of suboxone is dependent on a substance (which it sounds like you already are for the most part whether it be off and on; substance to substance. In one form or another, you sound like you are still addicted). You will want to consider what it would mean to accept that this addiction is part of you and to be fully alleviated of its symptoms, you may have to stay on suboxone forever.

I took suboxone for 2 1/2 years and decided it was time to go off of it. Technically, I wasn't "addicted" to anything at the time I got back on suboxone. In fact I tested clean. I totally understand the fear and concern of going back on something that could cause withdrawal when you stop, when you aren't in that position at the moment. It sounds crazy to do. I kept thinking....who would do that? Why would I even want to do that? The bottom line is that I was thinking it because it was the smart thing for me to do whether I liked it or not. My life works when I am on suboxone. I am FREE to do as I choose. I am never free to forget about the disease because I have to take the little orange pill every day and that bugs me. I wish I could just get through it and forget all about it. But the reality for me is that I can either take the little orange pill and forget about it the rest of the day and live my life, OR I can be obsessed about getting drugs and not live my life. I choose the little orange pill.

I am pretty sure you are a good candidate for the little orange pill too. You will have to make that decision for yourself though and only you know what is best. I do NOT suggest you "try" it out from a friend however. It doesn't really work that way. You can't get the actual effect taking it once and in fact that is the worst way. It really is something you need to take under a doctors care. As much as your friend feels like she is helping you, she could be really harming you if it doesn't work out well which could be the case for a variety of reasons if not done correctly (as you have probably started to imagine from the other people who have posted).

I wish you the best. This part DOES SUCK. Making the decision sucks. Oh.....and withdrawal from sub I am pretty sure is NOT worse than methadone. I jumped off 12mg without tapering and missed only 1/2 day of work. Granted I wasn't SUPER productive when I was at work and got some comfort meds from the ER but either way....I was still working. I could NEVER work when in withdrawal from oxycontin and I am sure methadone is no better. People who say coming off suboxone is worse are in fantasy land. They have forgotten what it is like to get off full agonist opiates.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:23 am 
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Thanks for the answers, I know it took a while to type them out. :p

Yes, I'm an addict even if I don't currently have a physical dependency and it's got me nowhere in life, but at least I'm still alive and not locked up.

I went ahead and got 1 Suboxone tab from my friend yesterday afternoon (It's 2am here now). I started out with a quarter tab, just to be safe, and didn't feel much at all from it. I did the other quarter pill and that's probably when I started to really feel the first quarter I had taken about an hour prior. It's not what I expected.

The pill was a lot softer then I imagined. I thought if you had to let it sit under your tongue and suck on it that the pill would be hard as a rock. It dissolved in a matter of 5 minutes or so. Then I just felt weird. Not like going through WD, just a strange body feeling. I'm not currently physically dependent at the moment so It wasn't like that. I did do a small amount of Methadone and Hydros the day before yesterday and a couple Hydros yesterday morning, the same day I did the Sub, so maybe that had something to do with it. Sorry if my timeline is hard to follow, I'm worn out.

Then I started to yawn quite a bit and that worried me. It was the first time I had done Sub so I didn't really know what to expect, and with my friend just dieing, and my having done benzos till 2 days ago, I was afraid to go to sleep. Now I'm just tired. I still feel the Sub effects but there wasn't really an opiate high or euphoria to it at all. I can't really say I enjoyed it much at all, but I guess that's not what it's intended for. I will say I wasn't thinking about going out to find other opiates tonight, but it just wasn't what I expected. I get a buzz off Methadone and maybe that's what I was looking for.

I still have my doctors appt and half the pill I got today. I'm going to get some sleep and see how I feel tomorrow. I may just hang onto the other half. I'll see what tomorrow brings.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:42 am 
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Like we have said......probably shouldn't try this one out on your own. We addicts LOVE to be our own doctor but it really doesn't work that well for us. Based on what you have said, you probably need more than a quarter of a pill and it also has to build up in your system. You also need to properly induct so you don't go into withdrawal. You aren't going to get high or get a buzz off the suboxone and I am pretty sure it isn't like methadone. Most people need to do some kind of treatment along with the suboxone such as therapy, NA/AA, make your own recovery plan, etc. They have to learn to LIVE life which is something addicts don't really do well because we use a pill for everything.

I see so many people come on this forum who take the suboxone on their own without a script and they have a much harder time with it for a variety of reasons than those who take it legally. What you are doing now, is like playing with fire. This is the one option you have remaining and you really don't want to mess it up. So stay away from the suboxone until you are ready to induct officially. You will thank youself for it later. One of the worst disasters are people who end up using the suboxone to avoid withdrawals and get in this funky pattern of trading it off and on with other opiates. You will ruin any chances you have of using suboxone properly if you do this. Preserve this one treatment option for yourself because it is really the only option we all have left. You don't want to lose it.

Done with lecture. Hang in there. If you get on a wait list sometimes you can get in sooner. Read the posts above and take all the advice you can so you are ready to induct when the time comes. Just hang in there a little longer.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:53 am 
Hi there and welcome. You've already gotten some good information here. I'm not going to repeat everything that has already been said.
I just wanted to say that after reading your posts, all I could think was "how exhausting!" How tired you must be of living your life this way! It really isn't much of a life at all. Opiate addiction is Hell!.....So difficult to stop the cycle.
You're in trouble.....You're really playing with fire. You're mixing so many drugs. And now you're throwing in a little buprenorphine into the mix. That's pretty crazy and pretty dangerous. Surely this is not what you want to do. I noticed you said a few times that you're not physically dependent. I don't see how you could be any more physically dependent! It doesn't even matter on what particular opiate.....the fact is you're opiate dependent and you're an addict. And you need help with it....badly.
In my opinion, you would be a perfect candidate for Suboxone. BUT, not until you understand what the medication does and does not do. If you're looking for another means to stay high all the time....it's not gonna work. If you're looking for another medication to fill in the gaps for when you can't get your drug of choice....it's not gonna work. Buprenorphine is so different from the other drugs. It can give you the opportunity to have a life.....just a regular, normal life. But you have to want that, first and foremost. You have to be willing to do whatever it takes to get it.
Please quit screwing around with Suboxone that hasn't been prescribed to you by a doctor. Your's is a complicated case. You need to be under a doctor's care. The Methadone issue is a big one. That drug hangs around in your system for the longest time. If it were me, I'd do what one of the others here suggested.......Stay away from the Methadone...period....from now until your doctor appointment. Take whatever short-acting opiates you have to to hold you over until then. If you can do that and just hang on until that appointment date....you may just have a shot! This is a golden opportunity for you to change your life. It's up to you what to do with it.
Good luck and I hope you'll be back often!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:19 am 
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setmefree wrote:
Hi there and welcome. You've already gotten some good information here. I'm not going to repeat everything that has already been said.
I just wanted to say that after reading your posts, all I could think was "how exhausting!" How tired you must be of living your life this way! It really isn't much of a life at all. Opiate addiction is Hell!.....So difficult to stop the cycle.
You're in trouble.....You're really playing with fire. You're mixing so many drugs. And now you're throwing in a little buprenorphine into the mix. That's pretty crazy and pretty dangerous. Surely this is not what you want to do. I noticed you said a few times that you're not physically dependent. I don't see how you could be any more physically dependent! It doesn't even matter on what particular opiate.....the fact is you're opiate dependent and you're an addict. And you need help with it....badly.
In my opinion, you would be a perfect candidate for Suboxone. BUT, not until you understand what the medication does and does not do. If you're looking for another means to stay high all the time....it's not gonna work. If you're looking for another medication to fill in the gaps for when you can't get your drug of choice....it's not gonna work. Buprenorphine is so different from the other drugs. It can give you the opportunity to have a life.....just a regular, normal life. But you have to want that, first and foremost. You have to be willing to do whatever it takes to get it.
Please quit screwing around with Suboxone that hasn't been prescribed to you by a doctor. Your's is a complicated case. You need to be under a doctor's care. The Methadone issue is a big one. That drug hangs around in your system for the longest time. If it were me, I'd do what one of the others here suggested.......Stay away from the Methadone...period....from now until your doctor appointment. Take whatever short-acting opiates you have to to hold you over until then. If you can do that and just hang on until that appointment date....you may just have a shot! This is a golden opportunity for you to change your life. It's up to you what to do with it.
Good luck and I hope you'll be back often!


When I stated that I wasn't physically dependent I meant that when I run out of Methadone I don't go through WD. I have before and I get this feeling of impending doom, like I'm getting ready to die. Not just so sick I feel like I could die, kick the bucket.

Yesterday was not a pleasant experience at all and you all were right that I shouldn't have tried it on my own. I was looking to get a buzz from it and all I got was an uneasy feeling for the next 10 hours or so. I know Sub, or Methadone, and benzos don't mix and I'd been doing benzos for at least a week prior, having stopped a couple days ago. That worried me it may effect my breathing and when I started yawning I thought it was because I wasn't getting enough oxygen, so I was afraid to go to sleep till I felt most of it had passed. Then I didn't sleep well, with strange dreams of being in treatment again.

It's still almost 2 weeks before I'll be able to get any Methadone. It would help me financially f I could stop and I'd probably feel better too. Yes, after 40 years of this it's getting old and so am I. I'd like to find a way to be happy living a drug free life but I don't see that happening. If I get caught smoking weed I'll be kicked out of my apartment, so that's an issue as well. Any drug use would do the same. If I screw up now it will be big time.

I still have half the pill I got yesterday. I don't feel any compulsion to do it and really can't afford to buy anything to get me though till the start of the month, so maybe if I can dry out a while I can get my mind right and make the correct decision. I still have my doctors appt but don't know if I wan to live my life on Sub after the way it made me feel yesterday.

I may have gotten some mild WD effects out of it. The yawning and my eyes were watering and those are both signs of mild WD for me. What I'll probably end up doing is give my body a few days to clear out my system and try it again. Writing about it has got me starting to think about doing another quarter but that's the addict in me. It's a vicious circle that will never end if I don't put a stop to it myself.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:48 pm 
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I'm going to say this once more but only because I am concerned for you. In your last post you said you weren't sure if you could tolerate sub long term because of how it made you feel yesterday.

That is the EXACT reason people are suggesting you stay away from it for now. You aren't inducting properly and it is negatively impacting the way you are thinking about it. It has already taken just a wee bit of HOPE away from you that this drug could help you. Because now you aren't sure it could work for you. It CAN work for you. You DO have to want it. You really can't keep doing this to yourself. Please stay away from the sub until you can get an appointment. I agree to also stay away from the methadone. To give this a fair shot and thus give YOURSELF a fair shot, you have to do this the right way.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:21 am 
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Thanks. I appreciate your, and everyone else's, concern.

I'm going to leave Suboxone alone till I go to my appt and see how that goes. It may have worked out for the best this way, if I had enjoyed the time I had on it yesterday I probably would have kept abusing it. That's what the people I know are doing and I've heard several stories now about people just buying it to get high, doing 3 pills at a time, doing Sub and Vicodin at the same time, etc. Nobody is doing it in an effort to stay off opiates, just to get high and that's where I was. Even if I do go through with my appt and get started under a doctors care I don't know if I'll be content without getting high. I'm still concerned about getting addicted to it too. What to do...

I did run into some Methadone tonight and did 70mg. I didn't know if the Sub I did yesterday would keep it from having an effect but it didn't. I only have enough for 2-3 days. I know it's not the thing to do but it's what I'll feel the need to do to get by. The acetaminophen is too hard on my liver to stay on for any length of time. I try to avoid it as much as possible or I feel like crap for days afterward.

I have some benzos to tide me over after this and have used this time to take a break from them. I had to WD CT at home alone from Xanax about 6 years ago and it was the most horrible experience of my life. At 3 weeks into WD I didn't know if I was getting better or worse.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:43 am 
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I'm glad you've decided to stay away from the suboxone until your appointment. You mentioned that you don't know if you can be content without getting high. The suboxone will all but eliminate your cravings. When I started I didn't have any interest in getting high any longer. There are moments in time - triggers, but they pass. As for getting addicted to suboxone, well, you're already addicted. You will be dependent on suboxone, but not addicted to it - as long as you're taking it as prescribed.

I hope this makes sense and that it gives you some additional perspective.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:55 am 
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You have to do what you have to do and I would rather see you taking the methadone than taking the sub. Hang in there for now. You can figure it all out at your appointment.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:52 am 
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Welcome to the forum! As I read your first post, I thought you sounded a lot like me. I am also a life-long opiate addict. I started shooting dope when I was 17 years old, and by the time I was 19 I was in prison. I spent the next 20+ years in and out of the joint, but whenever I could get my hands on some dope, I'd do it. Now, I gave up the needle over 20 years ago, but about 11 years ago, I picked up pills. Percoset, Hydro's, Oxy's, whatever I could get my hands on. I had an endless supply of 40mg Oxycontin towards the end of my active drug use and on an average day I'd easily crunch up a half a dozen of those. And it wasn't even really getting me high any more, it was just making me "not sick."

Oh, by the way, I have chronic, advanced HepC as well. Type 1, in fact, which is the worst, and only responds to treatment about 35% of the time. Had a liver biopsy about 6 months ago, and luckily I don't need treatment at this time, but I'm getting closer to the point of needing it. Ahhh, yes, the wreckage of our pasts, right? :cry:

Anyway, I've been on Methadone before too. It worked for me in that I stayed high on it. But it's way too easy to "cheat" when taking it and I would always eventually end up back in the cooker or back on pills.

So, about 18 months ago, I got on Suboxone. And my life has improved dramatically since then! I am currently taking 4mg per day. It doesn't get me high, I just feel normal. Someone upthread wrote that suboxone makes you feel like you hit rewind on your life and went back to before you ever did any opiates and I think that's a terrific description of it.

Based on what you wrote, I think you're a good candidate for suboxone. I hope it works out for you. Stick around this place, there is a wealth of good information here and a very, very nice group of people who genuinely try to help people.

I don't post a lot here, but I do lurk every day and it really helps me.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:21 pm 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
I'm glad you've decided to stay away from the suboxone until your appointment. You mentioned that you don't know if you can be content without getting high. The suboxone will all but eliminate your cravings. When I started I didn't have any interest in getting high any longer. There are moments in time - triggers, but they pass. As for getting addicted to suboxone, well, you're already addicted. You will be dependent on suboxone, but not addicted to it - as long as you're taking it as prescribed.

I hope this makes sense and that it gives you some additional perspective.


The difference in dependent and addicted is, no difference to me. I've heard a lot of people on opiates for pain management make that distinction but to me it was because they couldn't admit to themselves that were addicted. Not to argue the point, I'm glad you responded.

Having gone through WD more times than I can count I worry what would happen if the system breaks down, something happens with my script, or I end up in some situation where I don't have pills and have to WD. I can handle WD from Oxys, Hydros, and the like. However, the symptoms I get during WD from Methadone are more than I can handle and I've heard horror stories that WD from Sub is even worse. I'm just leary of putting myself in that situation.


junkie781, we probably do have a lot in common. I was in the hospital for an extended atay when I was 13 and ended up medically addicted to Demerol. I had to go off CT before I got released but never forgot that feeling. It ruined me. I've been chasing it for the past 40 years now.

I've got HepC genotype 3a and decided against treatment early on. I usually don't feel too bad as long as I don't abuse myself by doing a lot of chemicals. Fatigue is my main complaint. I was a heavy drinker from the age of 17 or so but stopped when I got HepC. I had Hep B and D in '87 and got C in '96. I was already on paper for my 3rd DWI and had decided to quit drinking before I got my 4th, when I got C I just stopped and haven't drank since. 14 years now. I hate 12 Step programs and once I was off paper never went back.

That's the one thing that gives me hope. I stopped drinking and should be able to stop opiates, but they've always been my DoC. I think about drinking often but haven't broke down yet, I know I would just be sick the next day. I wish I could be as strong when it came to opiates but I'm not.

I did go a full year without any drugs at all about 10 years ago, not even weed, and was really proud of myself. Now my habit is worse than it's ever been with no signs of letting up. Somethings got to give and it's got to be me, and it will be one way or another...live or dead.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:02 pm 
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This is a really hard position to be in. There is no doubt in my mind that your ultimate goal should be to get on Suboxone through a physician and in conjunction with a rehabilitation program. Unfortunately, it sounds like it will be a number of weeks until you can do that. In the meantime, someone suggested being on Methadone rather than Suboxone. I'm not so sure that's a good idea at all. From everything I have read, Methadone seems to be, hands down, the hardest drug to transfer to Suboxone from. Some physicians go so far as to move the Methadone user to a short acting opiate for a few weeks and then onto Suboxone. Most will always try to get the Methadone daily dose down to 40 mg before the Suboxone induction is completed. Either way, I would personally suggest you do anything but Methadone if you want to have a good chance at getting and staying on Suboxone. The most challenging Suboxone inductions always seem to have Methadone involved.

I hope you are able to make all of this work and start to get your life back. If you are willing to put in all of the effort, Suboxone can work for you. Just understand, that getting high is going to have to become a thing of the past. Suboxone is here to help you feel normal - not high.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:43 pm 
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Well, I definitely subscribe to the "disease" concept when it comes to addiction. I firmly believe that people like us are wired a bit differently than those who do not become addicts or alcoholics. The fact that you were able to quit drinking is quite impressive, but when you look at the larger picture, from what you've written here, you've never been able to give everything up for an extended period of time. (I'm defining "extended" as more than a year)

Given that fact, and the fact that you've been actively using drugs for such a long time, you may be in the same boat as me. My suboxone prescriber just came right out and said it at my last appointment that he thinks I should just stay on suboxone for the long haul. I tend to agree.


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