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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:24 pm 
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I'm going to chime in once more and say, from a theoretical view, suboxone withdrawal is not worse than Methadone. Not in any sense. Remember, methadone is a full agonist, which means it's hitting all the 'ceptors, even the ones that make you high(since you obviously know). Suboxone is not like this. Not in any sense. It's only a partial agonist which means, it lets enough opiate in to keep you out of withdrawal and stop you from craving opiates, but it does not make you high. It will make you high if you're still naive to opiates in the grand scheme of things(which I can tell you are not..), and I consider those people to NOT be good candidates for suboxone. If you have a habit of eating half a dozen vicodin a day, suboxone is probably not the best idea for a couple reasons. One, the kick from that "low" of a habit isn't too awful and for two: You're only worsening it with suboxone. Your opiate tolerance is climbing further than it was and only delaying the inevitable. See, Suboxone I find is truly for people who don't have another choice as far as there opiate addiction goes. Most people are already at such a high tolerance to opiates and so deep in the hole that they're nearing overdose each day with the amounts of pills/dope they consume each day. That's who suboxone helps the most in my eyes, and I was one of those people. Eating 150/200mg of oxycodone a day, spending at least $100 a day to not get sick. There was no hope in my future until I found this site, and suboxone.com. As well as Dr. Junig's posts on youtube. With the arsenal of knowledge I acquired on the drug through those venues, I decided to give it a try and it dramatically turned my life around. I was skeptical at first, but after the first day all my questions were answered and in a very good way.

Like other's have said, stay away from suboxone until you're truly ready to stop. If you just want to take it to avoid getting sick until you can get more methadone or something to get "high" from, you're not ready for treatment. Black and white. If you find yourself wanting to be able to live freely without using a substance to take away your problems, and youre sick and tired of the ups and downs of being high/dope sick, then I fully advise you to give suboxone a shot. Until then, good luck!

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh in any way, but taking suboxone even though you don't want to quit opiates(which it truly seems like from your posts) is contradicting. Yourself, and the program.

And again, EVERYTHING I have read(Never taken methadone personally..) from many, many sources say Methadone is by far the WORST opiate to come off of, and suboxone is generally considered to be FAR milder when detox time comes. It's no where close to coming off a full agonist. Most find it even easier than coming off the drug that landed them here. Oxy. Hydrocodone. Dilaudid. The list goes on. Don't believe the horror stories. These people are probably the ones who jumped off at 8mg+ a day. Yes it will be bad if you do that. You have to TAPER. With your DOCTOR. If you do it correctly, getting down to crumbs(.25mg a day or so), than it won't be bad at all. Nothing that would prevent you from functioning anyway. Hell, there are users here who have made the jump from those small crumb doses like I mentioned and reported having ZERO withdrawal symptoms what so ever. So like I said, if you are doing it incorrectly, yes it's going to suck. If you do it the right way, it's NOTHING compared to a full agonist, and some times withdrawal is non existent.

GOOD LUCK.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:54 pm 
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I can't tell you how happy I am that you keep posting and putting everything out there. I am glad you have stuck around and are giving this a lot of thought.

I will tell you from my personal experience, that the withdrawal from suboxone was not NEARLY as bad as the withdrawal from oxycontin. Not even close. I quit suboxone suddenly at a 12mg per day dose. I did NOT vomit. I was NOT sick to my stomach all day. I did NOT get the hot/cold sweats. God I remember WD from oxycontin and literally having to put towels down on the bed and over the pillow and within 2 hours they would be soaked and I would have to get up and get more and then get in the bath (if I could) and then get more towels and literally NO SLEEP and pull the blanket on, then take them off. AWFUL. I will NEVER FORGET all of that.

What I did get with suboxone withdrawal was some yawning (not nearly as bad as OC WD). I did however have a lot of sneezing fits which I never got with OC withdrawal so that was quite strange. I did NOT get the watery eyes that never stop running either. OK....back to what I did get. I did get insomnia, restless legs, loss of appetite, fatigue, hmmmmmmmm....what else? Thinking. Bathroom issues. Anxiety. Cravings. But the nice thing was that the ER seemed to have a pill for all of these things. They gave me clonidine, a little bit of ativan to get me through the worst of it, immodium, restless leg medicine, and some trazadone to help me sleep. All in all, it seems like I had only about 50% of the symptoms I had with OC withdrawal. I only missed 1/2 day of work.

With that being said....I did go back on the suboxone after about 3 months. BUT...I was never quite right to begin with. I always had depression and anxiety and just didn't have the patience to wait out the PAWS and see if it would all go away. It was not an easy decision to go back on and I say that because I really don't want you to think I felt so awful that I just HAD to go back on the suboxone. I also have pain issues and when I went off the sub I realized how much the sub was helping with that. I tried a few things for the peripheral neuropathy I have and it didn't work. When I was on sub I didn't even know I had peripheral neuropathy. The other condition I have has no other treatment options except pain killers and surgery. The surgery I can do....the pain killers I just can't. I also can't live with the pain. So.......with everything all adding up, I decided to go back on it because even if I waited out the PAWS, what would I do for pain? It would only be a matter of time before I had to get painkillers and I knew the risks and I would probably just get right back into active addiction.

I think you hear the horror stories from people who have forgotten what withdrawal from full agonists is like. Or from people who are just angry to begin with about the whole situation. Recently there is a poster on this site who keeps going off about how horrible the withdrawal from suboxone is yet this poster has NEVER gotten off the suboxone. I think that is often true of the horror stories. One person said it, ten people heard it, and they all keep repeating it. People are much more likely to remember something negative than something positive so it keeps getting passed around and I really do not think it is true at all.....at least not in my experience and based on the makeup of the drug, it wouldn't make sense either.

I am sorry this is so long and I don't intend to make it all about me, but I want to ease some of your concerns. In terms of some emergency popping up and being without suboxone, a lot of people hoard away some extra pills just in case. The script CAN be called in if something happens to your doctor and they could probably help that way. The ER can prescribe a few days worth (as can any doc) in the event of emergencies. More and more often there are new doctors taking the courses and prescribing. I don't know what area you are in but you can go to www.suboxone-directory and there are a LOT of doctors on there. If you are good and don't have dirty UA's and don't cause problems then I can imagine it would be easy to transfer care and may not take so long to get in. All in all, I think you would be ok. BUT...these are all great questions.

One last thing. From reading your posts, I DO think you are ready to get off opiates. I just think you can't imagine what it would be like to be without them and NOT be miserable. So in that sense, you just don't want to be miserable. That makes sense. You sound tired. It is good for me to read your posts and remember how horrible it is to be in your situation. It helps keep me on the right track. And I'm with you on the 12-step stuff. I don't like it. I don't need it on suboxone. I need therapy and some other things...but not a 12 step program.

Hang in there. Please keep posting your concerns and how you are doing. I really can't wait to see you get through this and hope everything goes really well for you.

Cherie


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:24 pm 
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donh wrote:
I'm not so sure that's a good idea at all. From everything I have read, Methadone seems to be, hands down, the hardest drug to transfer to Suboxone from. Some physicians go so far as to move the Methadone user to a short acting opiate for a few weeks and then onto Suboxone. Most will always try to get the Methadone daily dose down to 40 mg before the Suboxone induction is completed. Either way, I would personally suggest you do anything but Methadone if you want to have a good chance at getting and staying on Suboxone. The most challenging Suboxone inductions always seem to have Methadone involved.


Well, since I'm not addicted to Methadone, have a physically dependency to Methadone, or have the MethadoneMunkey doing a breakdance on my back that won't be a problem. Methadone or any other opiate. I hope we have that settled now.

However I did do Methadone yesterday and today. 70mg at 5pm last night and 80mg at 11am today. My dose is all over the place.

Yes I'm an addict, have been for 40 years and will be all my life. I've lived my whole life high on drugs and don't honestly know if I'll ever be able to live happily without being high as a kite all day/all night 24/7. There would be no point in me bullshitting any of you or myself about it. I'm willing to give Suboxone a try though. If I can get by feeling normal and cut the bullshit I go through on a daily basis to stay high out of my life it would be a blessing all around.

junkie781, I don't believe in the disease concept though I've definitely got an addictive personality with a little OCD thrown in for good measure. The whole thing of getting things set up to get off is such a ritualistic behavior... As far as quitting alcohol, it wasn't my drug of choice. I was on 5 years paper for my 3rd DWI and knew if I continued to drink there would be a 4th. That would land me in the slammer for sure. I started tapering down slowly over a period of months till I wasn't drinking more than I was. When I got HepC I knew I had already laid the groundwork to stop so it wasn't too bad. Not drinking now is the trick. In all actuality, I just dropped one habit and picked up another.

Thanks everybody, I appreciate your input.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:31 pm 
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I meant to add my friend who referred me to the doctor said she ran out of Suboxone after taking it for 6 weeks and stopped without having any WD. That it wasn't bad at all.

While I'm still a little skeptic, if there's a side effect to it I'll probably experience it, if nothing else I can get started on Suboxone from the doctor and try it out for a week or so. If it turns out Sub isn't for me I can always stop before I do get a habit. It takes me at least 10 days or so before I start to pick up a habit on Methadone and I'll know by then.

This doctor is supposed to be really nice too, so that helps.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:33 am 
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I'm not sure where to even start here. This is what you just said/wrote:

"Well, since I'm not addicted to Methadone, have a physically dependency to Methadone, or have the MethadoneMunkey doing a breakdance on my back that won't be a problem. Methadone or any other opiate. I hope we have that settled now."

That was followed by this:

"Yes I'm an addict, have been for 40 years and will be all my life."

I hate to have to tell you, but you can't have it both ways. Either you are addicted to opiates or you are not addicted to opiates. There is no way on this earth that you can actually not be addicted to Methadone but still be addicted to opiates. Your body/brain does not know the difference. Your body/brain cannot tell if you took methadone or oxycodone. Certainly they each have some different properties to them - but they are both opiates. You, sir, by your own admission, are addicted to opiates. Just because you don't have a craving for a specific brand of opiate has nothing to do with it. Once you start to go into withdrawals, it will not matter the brand of opiate that you take. It is simply an opiate, in the appropriate dose, that will stop the withdrawals. All of this would be like claiming I am addicted to Oxycontin but not addicted to Fentanyl - simply because I have not abused Fentanyl in the past. If you are addicted or dependant on one opiate, you are by default addicted to all opiates - that is just how it works.

Now, when it comes to Suboxone, it again will not matter what brand of opiate is in your body. If the opiate level is too high, the Suboxone will cause you to go into precipitated withdrawals. If you need more than 40 mg of methadone to achieve "effect" that means that if you take Suboxone within a day or two of taking methadone, you are very likely to feel like shit. That, again, is just the facts.

If, however, you are claiming that you can stop taking ANY opiates today and not be in withdrawals 48 to 72 hours from now, then, yes, it would appear that you are not currently physically dependent. I just have an extremely hard time believing that you'll be able to stop opiate intake for 72 hours and not suffer withdrawals. Are you claiming that you can do that? If so, when is the last time that you went a week or even four days without ANY opiates? Have you done that within the past year? From everything I have read, I just don't get the opinion you have. Perhaps I am wrong. If I am, please correct me.

It seems like there is absolutely no doubt with the fact that you have a very serious opiate addiction. The first step to being able to successfully quit is going to have to include you wanting to quit. I can't imagine what it must be like to have a 40-year active addiction. I've had nearly ten years of active addiction and it feels like it's been a lifetime. I really feel bad for what you must have gone through in your life. I certainly hope that you'll be able to commit to a program and get your disease into remission. To do that, a lot of things are going to have to happen - including you developing a better understanding of the disease that you clearly have. Hopefully I have done a good enough job in helping you to better understand that dependence/addiction with opiates is dependence/addiction with opiates - regardless of the specific opiate you may have ingested most recently.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:51 am 
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Let me tell you something - if your opiate tolerance is high enough that you can take between 70 and 100mgs of methadone a day without overdosing...then there is no way that you are not dependent. Period.

Dependence comes from tolerance. Your tolerance goes up as your body adjusts to the amount of opiates you put into it. Then, when you reduce the dose...you go into withdrawal because you have all these receptors that are used to being treated to a certain amount of opiates every day.

As you go through withdrawal, your tolerance comes down, and hopefully returns to normal eventually.

A person who is not dependent, and therefore has low opiate tolerance, would either get very ill on that dose of methadone or they would just stop breathing.

Now, you may be some kind of anomaly in that you never experience withdrawal...but I did note that you said that you take methadone all month until you run out, and then you spend the next week in bed until you can score again. I'm supposing that you're spending that week in bed because you are sick from not having any drugs. Right?

In any case, if you are not dependent, then just stop taking the methadone. Why would you need Suboxone if you're not dependent/addicted? That makes no sense. You need to be honest with yourself or you won't be able to get well.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:53 am 
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Diary of a Quitter wrote:
Let me tell you something - if your opiate tolerance is high enough that you can take between 70 and 100mgs of methadone a day without overdosing...then there is no way that you are not dependent. Period.

Dependence comes from tolerance. Your tolerance goes up as your body adjusts to the amount of opiates you put into it. Then, when you reduce the dose...you go into withdrawal because you have all these receptors that are used to being treated to a certain amount of opiates every day.

As you go through withdrawal, your tolerance comes down, and hopefully returns to normal eventually.

A person who is not dependent, and therefore has low opiate tolerance, would either get very ill on that dose of methadone or they would just stop breathing.

Now, you may be some kind of anomaly in that you never experience withdrawal...but I did note that you said that you take methadone all month until you run out, and then you spend the next week in bed until you can score again. I'm supposing that you're spending that week in bed because you are sick from not having any drugs. Right?

In any case, if you are not dependent, then just stop taking the methadone. Why would you need Suboxone if you're not dependent/addicted? That makes no sense. You need to be honest with yourself or you won't be able to get well.



You're going to tell me when I do and don't suffer WD??


I already said I was not going to argue the point of difference between physical dependency and addiction.


No I did not say I took Methadone all month long then stayed in bed for a week. Read my post before answering it, please.


I did my best, several times to make it clear I am not now physically dependent/addicted to any opiate. Methadone or otherwise. When I wake up tomorrow it will be without Methadone and without any sign of WD symptoms.

I'll have to lie to the doctor to put it over that I am currently addicted/physically dependent to pull this off.


Be honest with myself? I have been, and been honest in my posts. Moreso than you seem to be able to fathom.

If you need to ask "Why would you need Suboxone if you're not dependent/addicted?" then you don't know beans about junkies or jonesin'.

Go back to reading about it.


As for me, I seem to have gotten all the good I'll get out of this, it's beginning to degenerate and any further participation on my part will only make me sick of Suboxone before I even get started on it. I've already made my decision. You can read about it in my last post, but you may not understand it...


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:32 pm 
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Consider yourself lucky that you're not physically dependent on it and quit taking the methadone now, because I assure you, once you become dependent on it, and need it to avoid feeling like utter shit every day, you're going to wish you had stopped. Trust me. We've all been there. It only takes time, and the more you take methadone, the shorter that time frame will be. I agree with Diary. I mean, you say you don't suffer withdrawal symptoms but take HIGH doses of methadone every single day for the better part of a month, with 3-5 day breaks in between maybe? It could simply be that the methadone has never actually been completely ELIMINATED from your system during those breaks. The stuff has an incredibly long half life, just like buprenorphine.

Dude all we're saying is, from what you told us, is yes, you're an addict. It's very obvious. Now, you may not be dependent, but one things for sure, you will be at some point and I'm welling to bet it'll be sooner rather than later, and then you're going to be really up shit's creek. Take it from us man. We've ALLLLLLLLLL been down that road. The only thing that varies is the DOC but... An opiate, is an opiate, is an opiate. Facts of life.

I just find it a little strange...maybe you're a freak of nature, but if I was taking methadone in high doses for months at a time, I'm 99% sure I'd end up dependent on it, like 99.9% of the other people in the same boat. You must be that .1%. Consider yourself lucky and stop now.

And I'm sorry if I come off harsh in anyway, but I get a little weirded out when someone wants to get on suboxone, but doesn't seem truly ready to QUIT opiates. You either want the help/change, or you don't. It's foolish to go on suboxone and still abuse opiates, because for one, it's going to take at least 36-48+ hours post dose of suboxone to even FEEL a high dose of opiates(some get around this with shooting high doses, but I obviously don't condone that) at all. And for two, you have to go through the whole vicious cycle of tolerance build up, waiting to take the bupe again. So on and so forth. It's foolish. If you don't wanna quit, hell, keep taking methadone. If you WANT to quit, suboxone is for you. There is no middle ground. When the time comes you're truly sick of all the bullshit that is opiate addiction, let us know and we'll be here to help you on your way to sobriety.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:23 am 
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IhateThispart wrote:
Diary of a Quitter wrote:
Let me tell you something - if your opiate tolerance is high enough that you can take between 70 and 100mgs of methadone a day without overdosing...then there is no way that you are not dependent. Period.

Dependence comes from tolerance. Your tolerance goes up as your body adjusts to the amount of opiates you put into it. Then, when you reduce the dose...you go into withdrawal because you have all these receptors that are used to being treated to a certain amount of opiates every day.

As you go through withdrawal, your tolerance comes down, and hopefully returns to normal eventually.

A person who is not dependent, and therefore has low opiate tolerance, would either get very ill on that dose of methadone or they would just stop breathing.

Now, you may be some kind of anomaly in that you never experience withdrawal...but I did note that you said that you take methadone all month until you run out, and then you spend the next week in bed until you can score again. I'm supposing that you're spending that week in bed because you are sick from not having any drugs. Right?

In any case, if you are not dependent, then just stop taking the methadone. Why would you need Suboxone if you're not dependent/addicted? That makes no sense. You need to be honest with yourself or you won't be able to get well.



You're going to tell me when I do and don't suffer WD??


I already said I was not going to argue the point of difference between physical dependency and addiction.


No I did not say I took Methadone all month long then stayed in bed for a week. Read my post before answering it, please.


I did my best, several times to make it clear I am not now physically dependent/addicted to any opiate. Methadone or otherwise. When I wake up tomorrow it will be without Methadone and without any sign of WD symptoms.

I'll have to lie to the doctor to put it over that I am currently addicted/physically dependent to pull this off.


Be honest with myself? I have been, and been honest in my posts. Moreso than you seem to be able to fathom.

If you need to ask "Why would you need Suboxone if you're not dependent/addicted?" then you don't know beans about junkies or jonesin'.

Go back to reading about it.


As for me, I seem to have gotten all the good I'll get out of this, it's beginning to degenerate and any further participation on my part will only make me sick of Suboxone before I even get started on it. I've already made my decision. You can read about it in my last post, but you may not understand it...


Is it really necessary to lob out insults in order to make your points? No offense, sir, but I know how to read and this is what you wrote in your first post:

I've been a lifelong substance abuser with opiates as my drug of choice. The closest Methadone clinic has been 100 miles away, much too far to drive. I've been buying Methadone and my tolerance has risen to where I'm doing 100mg a day. I've fallen into the routine of being able to buy enough to last me a week or so, spend the next 4-5 days in bed sleeping, then hunt for whatever I can get my hands on to take me through to the end of the month. Hydros or whatever. Sound familiar?


So, if you want to claim:
"No I did not say I took Methadone all month long then stayed in bed for a week. Read my post before answering it, please."

That's fine, but, well, you seem just a tiny bit confused about your own condition.

Anyway, I really hope you can get the help you need. And I wish you nothing but the best of luck.


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