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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:21 pm 
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Well i don't wanna go into ant extensive history as i have so many times before but here i am still struggling, still sick, and still trying to save what i can from the wreckage of this last run. I get subs prescribed, 8mg/day for the last 2 yrs, I have also been on a 2 yr run more or less, cleaning up for a few days here and there but have not been able to put 72hrs or more together in the past 6 months. I have suffered through 5 P. W.D's now!!! and it has traumatized me! I know this may raise some more questions or maybe i will be stoned for sharing my horrible experience with suboxone lately. I have around a $200.00/day habit which equals to around 2 1/2 grams of H. I never had a habit this bad and never had trouble getting back on my subs until i went through my first P. w.d about a yr ago, i have waited 24 to 32 hrs! into my W.d just to make sure i waited long enough but it wasn't and i suffered something fierce time after time just recently as of last night. I just started coming out of it a few hours ago and it started at 2.am, its now noon time. My intention is not to scare anyone but to find out what the hell is going on? The only thing i can come up with is the dope i get is cut with some long half life agent. The rls being the violent overwhelming symptom which kicks in full throttle about 45 min after induction. I have played with dosage, I have played with the time i wait and it honestly takes everything i have to make it around 24 hrs into W.d.
My other intention in sharing this is a fair warning to anyone who may be using suboxone just as something to fill in the blanks. I would just take my sub when i didn't have my d.o.c which is only setting us up for disaster in a bad way, they have been the worst nights of my life going through these W.d's, I have almost lost it completely i think everytime being on the brink of going to the 5th floor! I mean its that intense but as bad as it's been i wanna look at how this expierence can make me grow and it almost seems like it had to happen to me, so i could learn another lesson on how this disease is nothing to play with and it's so so so HARD to get back from active addiction, even getting back on subs nevermind anything else. Day 1 all over again here and another chance to make things right with the help of my lil orange pill filled with so many suprises.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:53 pm 
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Oh, wow, I really don't know why that has been happening to you, but I'm so sorry. It sounds absolutely horrible!!! Thank goodness you didn't act on the hopelessness and do something terrible. Hopefully, someone can explain why this keeps happening to you, but I can only imagine how scary it must be to take the first Sub after a run. I also hope you can get out and stay out of active addiction soon so you don't have to keep suffering like this!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:55 pm 
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Hi again 24K, although I'm so sorry for what has brought you back to us. ANOTHER P/W??? What drugs are you coming off of before trying to induce onto sub? Are you doing this with the help of a doctor or by yourself? Are you doing with by using the COWS scale to help you determine the severity of your withdrawals and when is the best time to start the sub? It could be a couple of things - what you're going off of has too long a half life, and/or you're just not waiting long enough to start the sub. Or, something is up and you are EXTREMELY unique.

I also know you're having trouble staying in remission and I feel for you and the struggles you've been going through. You said you've been on 8 mg a day of sub. Personally, I think for someone who's having trouble with relapsing that the dose simply isn't high enough to address all of your cravings. To do that your receptors need to be and KEPT good and saturated. 8 mg should be enough over the ceiling, but it just might not be enough over the ceiling for your needs.

Again, I'm sorry for all the shit you've been through. Hang tough and I wish I could give you better answers.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:40 pm 
Wow...that sounds terrible! I'm so sorry for you! It sounds like you are very aware now that what you've been doing is NOT working. The pull of opiate addiction is very, very powerful! I know this very well. Even with buprenorphine on board for months and months, I personally continue to struggle with powerful cravings at times. I know how hard it can be.
I think you are right in thinking that this bouncing back and forth, filling in times between having your DOC with bupe is just a real, real bad idea. As I said, it just isn't working! You are being punished for it over and over again, and I do not believe you or anyone else deserves that. Opiate withdrawal is horrendous! I, too, have had sever RLS in w/d and it is miserable indeed!
Unfortunately I cannot tell you why exactly it is that you are suffering precipitated w/d every time you try to induce back on to Suboxone. I think Hatmaker has given about the best scientific guess we can give you above. We pretty much know how bupe works and that being the case, we know that precipitated w/d occurs when one still has full-agonists opiates (in your case, heroin) attached to one's opiate receptors in the brain. The bupe and the heroin are in essence, competing for those 'spots' of attachment on the opiate receptors. I believe that as we continue to use/abuse opiates, our brain sort of tries to compensate by sort of creating more and more receptors for these drugs to bind to. I would perhaps guess that because of your history of using both full and partial-agonists that your brain is somewhat of a state of constant confusion. I'm sure that I'm oversimplifying and I may even be way off base with my thoughts, but I'm just guessing based upon what I do know about this stuff. What I do know, and in fact was just discussing with a friend of mine, is that the body is always going to pull for something called 'homeostasis' or a state of balance and health. I would have to imagine, then, that your brain chemistry is trying very hard to compensate for what you're throwing at it all the time. That brain is probably thinking "what does he want me to do here?!" You know? "Do I keep trying to make more receptors to give these drugs something to attach to, or is he gonna stay on bupe and let me relax a minute?!" Again, I know I'm oversimplifying and I don't claim to know exactly what I'm talking about. I also believe that our experiences with bupe can vary quite a bit.
I think you said yourself that you know that what you're doing isn't right and is getting you nowhere really. You're suffering more each time you do this. And I'm sure you know that it has to stop. Whatever the root cause may or may not be....to me, it's obvious that damage is being done to your brain. It is pretty broadly accepted that the damage done by opiates IS reversible. That being the case, especially with someone like yourself who has struggled a lot with the back and forth, it's going to take a good while for that damage to be reversed, in my opinion. You need a good long stretch of time just on bupe. Please allow yourself the opportunity to be well. If you're not under the care of a physician, please consider it. I suspect that you are needing much more than these little orange pills with the stage your addiction is in. This is a difficult battle, even for those without a long history of drug abuse and relapse. For you, it's probably that much more difficult. So again, please consider seeing a doctor if you don't already. And consider getting further treatment. You may need to go inpatient somewhere for a while just to rid yourself of all opportunities to obtain illicit drugs. At the very least, I would think you'd need an intensive outpatient treatment program and ongoing therapy or counseling for a good while to give you a chance of success. Whatever it takes is what you need to be willing to do. You're going down a really dangerous road and it's time to change direction. You've suffered enough, it sounds to me like.
I hope I've helped, even a little bit. Please keep coming here for help. Hang in there!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:55 pm 
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My guess is that your tolerance is just too high at this point and that is why you're going through PW when you try to induce.

PW happens when the sub replaces the full-agonist opiates at the receptor, but it can also happen if your tolerance is so high that the opiate effect of Sub is just not strong enough to keep you out of withdrawal. We have had other members with large heroin habits go through PW even though they inducted with a doctor. And even when they got through the PW they felt crappy for a couple of weeks until their tolerance came down and they adjusted to being on Sub. The tolerance thing is also an issue for people switching from methadone to Suboxone. They have to either taper low enough on their methadone dose or stay off of methadone long enough for their tolerance to come down enough for the Suboxone to be effective. Remember that even a large dose of Suboxone is still only equal to around 50mgs of morphine.

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 Post subject: tolerance
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:54 pm 
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I wanna thank everyone!! for the overwhelming support, it means alot to me really. I think Diary of a quitter hit it right on with the tolerance scenario, though everyone had valid points. I went through this exact circumstance a few months ago, I kept going into P.w.d and i couldn't take it anymore, I would en up shooting through it which i know is very dangerous. Usually a good 3 grams would do the trick but i know this has increased my chance in overdose 10 fold playing this game, so i checked into detox. They used methadone and started me at 40 mgs which did absolutely nothing, the Dr made a special order and i got 70 the next morning and went down from there. I was comfortable that second day but miserable the remaining time coming down from that, everyone was having a great fuck-in time excuse my french but i was starting to wonder if i was in the right place?? I was clearly the sickest one, but there was 2 big snow storms that week and alot of people where there for a free room and meal. Well i got through that wk and a half and my tolerance went down in just that amount of time appropriately since i was hurting the whole wk. I came out on 5 Mg's and maintained on perk for 2 days until inducing on my sub with no problem at all. I took this for granted and just assumed i brought my habit down and i could get really high again which was true for about a wk and then it escalated for the next 2 months or so and here i am in the same situation. I am still really uncomfortable but its nothing like early this morning, I remember the days sub took away all my symptoms and i miss that, it worked great and of coarse i took it for granted. Well progression is so real and it took a while for me to accept that aspect of the disease but there's no doubt in my mind that its real as anything else this addiction throws at us. I am just gonna hold onto my seat right now, I am a member of A.A and have a sponsor that is a great help if i use him. I do believe i need to be on a higher dose at least for the first few wks or so if not longer and i do have a primary care physician who i get my sub from but she is not aware of my situation as she let me know our first appointment there's no room for relapse so i have hidden it from her for 2 yrs now, ultimately that hurt me so i would suggest to anyone who may be in a similar situation with there D.R to start looking for a new one if you cannot be honest with them in my opinion it would save you alot of heartache.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:35 pm 
Glad to hear you're feeling a little bit better. It just is likely to take some time for you to get where you need/want to be with your Sub. It really does sound like you have a pretty good handle on what's up and you know what to do, it's just a matter of doing it, right? I know it's much easier said than done. It's almost as if you know too much in a way...and I know how that is. Like, you've figured out what it takes to 'break through' the bupe, how much and how long you can take the bupe and still get a buzz with the other drugs, etc.... But now you've just really pushed it too far and you can't juggle it anymore. You're getting these horrid withdrawals when trying to get back onto bupe and it's getting harder and harder to get high. At least I think that's where you're at....correct me if I'm wrong. But yes, I can see how a person could get there.
I agree completely with what DOQ says....She's pretty much always right on the money! I think I was maybe looking way too deep with this. It probably does have much more to do with just plain ole 'tolerance.' I still think what I postulated above might have some validity as well. But a far easier and probably more accurate way of explaining what's gone on with you is the problem of tolerance, and the ceiling effect of buprenorphine. DOQ reminded me of that in her reply.....No matter how much bupe we take it's still not really going to be any more effective in staving off the physical aspects of w/d than taking somewhere between 4 and 8mg of bupe for most of us. Hence, if your tolerance is sky-high, as yours surely must be with the heroin and bupe back-&-forth, you just can't catch it with any dose of Suboxone. Therefore when you try stopping heroin to go back to Sub you wind up in severe w/d. Bless your heart! What a mess! Again, I'm so sorry for you. There but for the grace of God, go I.....seriously. I've tried to play the same game. Not with heroin, but nonetheless, and it didn't turn out too good! So I really do feel for you. And I want you to get better....because as you said, you are playing with fire in terms of a lethal overdose.
Please don't give up. You seem to know what to do. You have the knowledge, the experience, and the tools. Put it all into practice. Stick with Sub only and work real hard and I believe you can make it! Personally, I must have a power greater than myself (whom I call God) or I couldn't make it. My faith gives me hope when I have none. My God gives me forgiveness and grace when I don't deserve it. I, personally, must have a conscious, working spiritual life in order to keep on track. If none of that applies to you, I mean no offense. Just sharing what has helped me when nothing else could. In any case, I hope you know that you are loved and valuable, no matter how bad things seem.
I hope you continue to feel better and keep posting here.


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 Post subject: No pain....No gain
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:53 pm 
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Everything you have stated is valid setmefree and thank you so much for your understanding. I know sometimes when we hop on the wagon and have a lil time behind us its hard sometimes to look at others failure, and for myself have been quick to judge but i have got none of that here and I'm grateful for that. I have wanted to be clean for a long long time, as i look what keeps dragging me back into active addiction it's alot of things but most of all i think it's not letting go and living in my past. Some of us get alot back from our wreckage whether that be friends or family or a job etc... I personally got nothing back by getting sober, in fact i lost all that i loved. There was too much damage done and i have never been able to reclaim my family. My daughter is 6 now and needs me desperately and i am ashamed to say i have not been there and have been a paycheck at most of her life which makes me sick and which is what creates all this self-hatred which turns into relapse very easily. I know i have to accept my past, remember it, but not dwell on it. I know i have to love me before i can truly show my love for my daughter or anyone else for that matter. It has been harder and harder to get back, I have been in constant discomfort since i induced mainly severe body ache and muscle aches. The cravings have also been kicking my ass but i know if nothing changes nothing changes. It has to hurt if it's to heal!!


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 Post subject: Re: No pain....No gain
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:38 pm 
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USED2B24K wrote:
Everything you have stated is valid setmefree and thank you so much for your understanding. I know sometimes when we hop on the wagon and have a lil time behind us its hard sometimes to look at others failure, and for myself have been quick to judge but i have got none of that here and I'm grateful for that. I have wanted to be clean for a long long time, as i look what keeps dragging me back into active addiction it's alot of things but most of all i think it's not letting go and living in my past. Some of us get alot back from our wreckage whether that be friends or family or a job etc... I personally got nothing back by getting sober, in fact i lost all that i loved. There was too much damage done and i have never been able to reclaim my family. My daughter is 6 now and needs me desperately and i am ashamed to say i have not been there and have been a paycheck at most of her life which makes me sick and which is what creates all this self-hatred which turns into relapse very easily. I know i have to accept my past, remember it, but not dwell on it. I know i have to love me before i can truly show my love for my daughter or anyone else for that matter. It has been harder and harder to get back, I have been in constant discomfort since i induced mainly severe body ache and muscle aches. The cravings have also been kicking my ass but i know if nothing changes nothing changes. It has to hurt if it's to heal!!


Wow, that brought tears to my eyes. You are obviously a good person and you love your daughter or it wouldn't torment you to not be in her life. Can you write to her in a journal or something? If I were her and grew older and got to actually read something my parent wrote that showed they were missing me and thinking of me and battling addiction to be able to see me, well, that would mean everything.

I'm actually recovering from alcoholism and not opiates, but I know what it's like to feel like it is all gone and to have to figure out how to keep going when it seems like there is no reason to. I was a bad drunk....drinking huge amounts of vodka right from the bottle in the freezer. I'd have to get up twice a night to drink to get through. I remember sitting in detox (once again) and my husband came in and in a very business-like way told me he was done and taking my kids and had met with a lawyer and was filing for divorce and he wished me well and hoped I got sober. Then, he left. I lost it. Seriously, all these years later, I am trying to not cry from remembering that awful day. I thought I was going to go crazy. I kicked and screamed and they put me in a room for people in that state and locked me in and eventually came and offered me Benadryl. I wanted to kill myself but I couldn't figure out how to do it with what I had at my disposal. Ugh. You know what? I did get my family back, but I had to keep going back then not thinking I would. You have to dig very deep in that situation. You have to have blind faith that things will get better or you will have nothing to go on. Things DO get better. It's just very hard to see when you are at the bottom of that pit. The only answer is to have blind faith that it will get better and you have to believe me when I say you are not a bad person. Your daughter deserves you. It's never too late. Don't ever give up on yourself.

And one more thing. I quit drinking when my oldest was six and he has no recollection of me every having one single drink, even though I was drunk for most of the first six years of his life. You still have plenty of time to make plenty of memories. Start today by doing right by yourself and keep all your focus on only today. It does work. If you think too much about what is down the line, you will torment yourself back to using. If you live for today and do the same thing tomorrow, you will feel like a new person in not that many todays from now.

laddertipper

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