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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:13 am 
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Wondering if anyone else is experiencing the same symptoms as I am.

I have been on suboxone for about a month now. My dose started at 24mg. I am now on a dose of 6mg/day.

Every since the start of my treatment I have experienced withdrawal symptoms about 8-12 hours after my last dose of suboxone, and they will disappear ~1 hour after I dose again. I have read extensively on the net about suboxone and know all about "phantom withdrawals". The problem is, these symptoms aren't phantom whatsoever. I have postponed my dose many times to test the "phantom theory", but the symptoms do not go away, they only get worse. I tried waiting an extra 16 hours once just to make sure, and like always the symptoms just increase in severity.

Since I started suboxone I have been dosing twice a day (morning and evening), as to avoid these withdrawal symptoms. They normally begin with slight aches and chills, then proceed to hot flashes, runny nose, lower back pain, etc. The usual suspects.

Is anyone else experiencing this? Is there anything you have done to help with this problem?

I know I have a fast metabolism. I have always metabolized drugs quickly. My withdrawal always started 1-2 days sooner then it (technically) should when abusing methadone.

I know it may seem obviously caused by my extremely fast decrease in dosage, but I'm near certain that is not the case. I only needed a 24mg dose for the first 4 days to get me through the transition from methadone to suboxone. Once I felt "okay" I dropped to 16mg for a few days, then to 12mg for ~4-5 days. I then dropped to 8mg (4mg in the morning, 4mg at night). I stayed on that dosage for 2 weeks (as recommended). I just dropped another 2mg, down to 6mg. It has been 4 days. This dose is holding me fine, but I am unable to take it all at once. I have been taking 4mg in the morning and another 2mg in the evening. After my morning dose, I wait until I start to feel lousy (which takes anywhere from 8 to 12 hours) and "tough it out" for a few hours (or as long as I can bear) and then dose the remaining 2mg.

As always, I will wake up tomorrow sweating, with goosebumps, back pain, etc, but once I dose my 4mg, the symptoms will all disappear. Anyone else in my situation? I really wish I could dose once a day (as the good doc recommends) as I feel it would definitely help me get away from my old habits.

Any opinions, thoughts, advice, similar stories would be greatly appreciated. Thank in advance guys.

:mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:21 pm 
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Hi. I too have a very fast metabolizim, always have. With food, drugs, whatever! I don't have that quick, where after 8-12 hours or so I start w/d, but I am not saying that you are lying about yours or anything like that. The half life of bupe is upto 72 hours (or more I guess in very rare cases) with an average of about 37, but it can be less, probably much less. I know with my fast metab. I still dont start to feel any symptoms really for sometimes at least over 24 hrs, but usually at least 48 hrs.

I do have a very messed up back and have been trying multiple dosing for help with that. Instead of taking my 12mg in morning now, I sometimes take 8mg in morning, and 4mg in evening. Sometimes I even take 4-4-4 through out the day, but not so often. Maybe that will help, even though it really isn't good practices because of provoking addictive behavior (dosing multiple times a day as if a short acting med, when it really is rather long acting), even though I do it to try and get better pain control from the suboxone. Maybe you can try to maximize the absorbtion by searching it here on this forum. IF you have not already of course. Good Luck and I hope someone with a little bit more info can give you some insight. Take Care!!

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:36 am 
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OK, I understand you were on methadone prior to Suboxone. It is a fact that you will feel the withdrawal effects somewhat for a period of time from Methadone. While these two drugs are similar, they are quite different. Your dose of Suboxone is most likely too small too soon.

Suboxone builds up in the body.It has a 37.50 half life, meaning that if you were taking 16mgs. dose, it would take around 37.50 hours for that 16mg dose to reach 8mg. Here is a link to help explain:
A.S. Half Life of Bupe. Make sure to look at the graphs in the first post.

I just think you are moving too quickly, not allowing your brain enough time to adjust to the changes. Nobody should ever be in a hurry to get off of Sub. Your recovery happens on it's own watch! If you need any help, just let me know!

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:05 am 
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Thank you for the replies. Any insight into this problem is a big help and much appreciated.

I must say, not to sound all-knowing (I'm not by any means), but I have done extensive research on suboxone. I'd have to say I've put in a good 120+ hours reading blogs, forums, medical reports, etc. I'm always craving more knowledge when it comes to a drug I am ingesting. I did the same thing when abusing.

I should clarify that I wasn't on methadone maintenance. I ended up using methadone as my DOC in the end of my addiction. With an average daily dose of ~25mg. I abused methadone for approximately 2 months. The switch from methadone to suboxone was only 'really' uncomfortable for the first 3 days. And after 5 days, I was experiencing no symptoms whatsoever (unless I tried to wait 24 to dose again).

The reason why I am dropping at such a fast rate is mainly money related. I have no insurance, no job and obviously no money. The pharmacy I am getting my prescription filled at right now is 9.25 a pill. And as soon as I get my second prescription I will be switching pharmacies, believe you me!

I am also dropping because I would feel more comfortable at a lower dose. I was getting some unwanted side effects at that high dose I believe. Now that I've come down, I am no longer experiencing the "fogginess", "Sleepiness", "constipation", "upset stomach", "sweats", etc.

I also don't see the point in taking such a high dose if the ceiling effect occurs at such a low dose, it seems completely unnecessary to me.

Anyways, thanks again for the comments, I hope I am being clear in explaining myself.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:14 pm 
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shelwoy added some much needed information that I should have included. Thank you


bubble
9.25 is a lot!! I hope you do find a better pharmacy. You explained yourself just fine. Good luck with whatever happens and keep us updated please.

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 Post subject: Improvement?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:03 am 
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Well, I took my usual 4mg this morning, and was distracted tonight with a relative visitor from out of town, along with a trip to the hospital with my mother :(

Since I was busy with other things, I didn't think to take my second 2mg dose of suboxone. Well, now it's 2:03am and I'm really tired! So I figured I'll just try to go to sleep. If all goes well, I will attempt taking just 4mg tomorrow in the morning.

If this proves successful, I'll not only be able to only dose once a day, but also lower my dose another 2mg! That's great!

Maybe my withdrawal symptoms were from switching from methadone as well as dropping so quickly. I hope this works out, I will let you guys know. Thanks again for replies.

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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:26 pm 
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bubblebobble wrote:
Well, I took my usual 4mg this morning, and was distracted tonight with a relative visitor from out of town, along with a trip to the hospital with my mother :(

Since I was busy with other things, I didn't think to take my second 2mg dose of suboxone. Well, now it's 2:03am and I'm really tired! So I figured I'll just try to go to sleep. If all goes well, I will attempt taking just 4mg tomorrow in the morning.

If this proves successful, I'll not only be able to only dose once a day, but also lower my dose another 2mg! That's great!

Maybe my withdrawal symptoms were from switching from methadone as well as dropping so quickly. I hope this works out, I will let you guys know. Thanks again for replies.


Hi Bubble,

I too experience the symptoms that you refer to as soon as I reach a certain time each day and it's almost like my internal alarm telling me that it's time for another dose.. I was on Methadone for (3) months and taking anywhere from 30 to 60mgs a day for pain management from an injury that leaves me with chronic back and neck pain. My initial transition to Suboxone from Methadone was horrific to say the least. 4 days of the worst hell that everyone on this site knows about :evil: My doc did express to me that my body would be going thru w/d symptoms regardless of the suboxone dosing and I would feel secondary effects for at least 30-45 days, maybe more. Methadone stays in your bones and endocrine system for a longer duration than any of the short-acting opiods like oxy and vicodin.. I'm expecting at least a 6 month treatment with Suboxone as my doc is going to taper me in comfortable steps based on my previous Methadone use. I would sit down with your doc and discuss your ongoing symptoms because as Shelwoy said, you may be "rushing" your treatment and thus having these episodes of w/d symptoms due to your quick taper.

I hope this helps you out a little, I can definitely sympathize with you on the ups and downs with this medication. Please let us know how you're making out.

Good Luck!

SUBBKIDD32


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:01 pm 
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Thanks for the reply subkidd, nice to know others are in this with me.

Since dropping another 2mg and dosing once a day only, I've been fine, expect for some sleep problems, but nothing major.

I just finished a HUGE 9 hour project and my entire body is a wreck, I want to take that second 2mg dose right now, so badly, but I know I shouldn't. It probably wouldn't even do much for me, I should be above ceiling right now.

Thats what always has me confused... how would one experience ANY withdrawal from anything between 32-4mg, if the ceiling is at 4mg, and the half-life is over 24hr. That should mean you could drop straight from 32mg to 4mg in a day and not feel a thing. This has always had me boggled.

I'll keep ya's posted on my progress.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:48 pm 
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Hey Bubbs,

I know all the scientists say it's impossible but I also feel like I have an alarm going off telling me it's time to dose. It seems more than psychological to me. So at any rate I'm down under .5mg a day but I still take a little in the morning and a little at night. Just works better for me.

DC


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