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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:39 am 
I agree with subluv on some aspects. But im not going to try to get banned. I'd much prefer to agree to disagree and maybe discuss some things. Oh and just because someone talks bad about a company doesen't mean he doesen't work for them. It's called a shill. and they are paid/compensated to go out change peoples influences on trends or specific things. And in this case he would make a GREAT shill if i ever seen one. Or it could be the exact opposite. Maybe he is out there to help people. Who knows. I think people have it VERY wrong on this whole recovery thing. When it comes time to get off this stuff alot of people will realize the true terror of this super potent substance.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:07 pm 
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I don't have time to read the whole thread-- but am I the supposed 'shill'? I won't threaten anyone over the post; the comments are silly and harmless-- and suggest to me that someone watches too much television.

I can assure 'chaime' (is that right?) that RB is doing just fine, and has no need for 'shills'. They own the patent on a blockbuster medication-- something they accomplished in a sleazy way, but that I have to admit was very effective. I have worked for pharma before, and would have no problem disclosing it if I worked for RB; I am not 'anti- pharma' or 'anti-business', and I don't understand those who do have that attitude.

What I don't like about the thread and post is that they waste everyone's energy, and divert attention from the important things that sometimes happen here-- the help that a new patient receives, or the fellowship of people starting out on a new path.

I can assure Chaime that my motives are pure. Today I saw an 18-y-o girl who goes to school with my daughter, and her situation sums up my feelings about Suboxone... while I wish with all my heart that she could 'just stop', either on her own or after residential treatment, she can't stop. She continues to snort large amounts of OC daily, to the point of nodding off-- the point where the risk of overdose becomes high. She is college material-- and I don't know if she will be alive after another month. Suboxone, if she takes it correctly, will almost guarantee that she will not die from opioids. Would I rather have her 'off everything'? Sure-- if there were no risk of relapse. Many young people die during relapse, from over-estimating their own tolerance.

Suboxone would save her life-- at least give her a chance to gain insight and grow up a bit. If, that is, I had room for another patient-- which I don't. Which is why I ask people to sign the petition at the White House site-- please.

Chaime, please recognize the reality of the situation.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:06 pm 
Thanks for the reply subdoc! I'd like to let you know that recently separating from the army with a secret security clearance that shills are very real and very much active. Especially in the Iran/Israel situation today. I don't have very much as far as how deep shills go. But they are active on alot of things going on in the world. It was just a speculation and i wanted people to think on both sides of the coin sometimes. It never hurts to be to cautious. Unless your me and im a paranoid wreck sometimes.
That situation is very sad. I wish you could do something not as a doctor. But as a person to try to make sure she can at least get some sort of intervention within her life. I know the nasty power of oxycodone all to well. Thanks to a doc putting me on it. and most of all thanks to myself for letting it steal a good part of my soul.

Okay yes it would save her life for the time being. But how is the relapse rate looking when you get off bupenorphine? From what i gather and it stopped a doc dead in his tracks and went from all jolly and joking to being really serious and kinda drawn back from the sudden question i threw at him. Apparently, it's a ridiculously high statistic. And im sure individual experiences will vary. I 100% agree that it is right to intervene with suboxone to save that young girl with her whole life ahead of her from nodding off and never waking up. This is a sad situation and i've been there before aswell. I will sign the petition for you though. And hope that it does work out to be able to at least try to save someone from death/prision.

"What I don't like about the thread and post is that they waste everyone's energy, and divert attention from the important things that sometimes happen here-- the help that a new patient receives, or the fellowship of people starting out on a new path."

Ok. Situation dictates this right? So i am going to agree and disagree. What i don't like is not being able get into some of the cons of bupenorphine. Such as the damage i think my liver is taking from recent bloodwork. After patterns of elevated enzymes. The fact that it has a HIGH relapse rate. Go figure using a opiate for a opiate, ::Dough!:: -homer simpson The idea that it's withdraw symptoms are SO drawn out that those poor guys who are taking suboxone. When they were orginally just on low dose hydrocodone, tramadol, codeine, sometimes low dose oxycodone. If people think that cold turkey from some of those are bad. It can be a shell shock when they are faced with potent bupenorphine w/d. Sorry but if it was labeled methadone light. Or diet methadone i don't think i'd be so inclined to cause a ruckus. But let situation dicate when the right time to chime in about pros and cons.
I'm sorry i can't just act all content and pretend like everything is just peaches and creme when i know there is a storm cloud waiting for me on the otherside. You know what scares me? That in 5 years or so that this high dose bupe tablet is going to be one of those recall drugs for major lawsuits and serious adverse reactions. I guess people want to pretend or push outta there heads some of the stuff i listed above. Or pretend like it will be different for them. (Please, i sincerely hope i am wrong) and would love for you to tell me when the times comes and we are done with this "treatment" Maybe im to much of a realist for my own good, or i worry to much. But if the reality of it scares everyone so much that they bunch together like sheep and start bashing me. I will leave and head over to subsux dot com. It's where i think i'll see the nonbelievers after they have been on this long enough and start to wake up.

If people care to have intelligent discussion with me without getting all... No my doctor is right and were on the same page. Remember for those who let a doc put us on pain pills to begin with, where that lead to after awhile. My real name is Will and i'd be happy hear some feedback.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:26 am 
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chaimeragiest wrote:
Okay yes it would save her life for the time being. But how is the relapse rate looking when you get off bupenorphine? From what i gather and it stopped a doc dead in his tracks and went from all jolly and joking to being really serious and kinda drawn back from the sudden question i threw at him. Apparently, it's a ridiculously high statistic. And im sure individual experiences will vary. I 100% agree that it is right to intervene with suboxone to save that young girl with her whole life ahead of her from nodding off and never waking up. This is a sad situation and i've been there before aswell. I will sign the petition for you though. And hope that it does work out to be able to at least try to save someone from death/prision.




"What I don't like about the thread and post is that they waste everyone's energy, and divert attention from the important things that sometimes happen here-- the help that a new patient receives, or the fellowship of people starting out on a new path."

Ok. Situation dictates this right? So i am going to agree and disagree. What i don't like is not being able get into some of the cons of bupenorphine. Such as the damage i think my liver is taking from recent bloodwork. After patterns of elevated enzymes. The fact that it has a HIGH relapse rate. Go figure using a opiate for a opiate, ::Dough!:: -homer simpson The idea that it's withdraw symptoms are SO drawn out that those poor guys who are taking suboxone. When they were orginally just on low dose hydrocodone, tramadol, codeine, sometimes low dose oxycodone. If people think that cold turkey from some of those are bad. It can be a shell shock when they are faced with potent bupenorphine w/d. Sorry but if it was labeled methadone light. Or diet methadone i don't think i'd be so inclined to cause a ruckus. But let situation dicate when the right time to chime in about pros and cons.


I'm sorry i can't just act all content and pretend like everything is just peaches and creme when i know there is a storm cloud waiting for me on the otherside. You know what scares me? That in 5 years or so that this high dose bupe tablet is going to be one of those recall drugs for major lawsuits and serious adverse reactions. I guess people want to pretend or push outta there heads some of the stuff i listed above. Or pretend like it will be different for them. (Please, i sincerely hope i am wrong) and would love for you to tell me when the times comes and we are done with this "treatment" Maybe im to much of a realist for my own good, or i worry to much. But if the reality of it scares everyone so much that they bunch together like sheep and start bashing me. I will leave and head over to subsux dot com. It's where i think i'll see the nonbelievers after they have been on this long enough and start to wake up.


If people care to have intelligent discussion with me without getting all... No my doctor is right and were on the same page. Remember for those who let a doc put us on pain pills to begin with, where that lead to after awhile. My real name is Will and i'd be happy hear some feedback.


Hi,,,,,, Umm there was a couple things I wanted to comment on here, so I "bolded"
the things you said, and then wrote my comment.........
no offense, none taken, no dis-respect,,,,,
I read YOUR post with an open mind, so please do the same for me.
and happy new year!!!!

But how is the relapse rate looking when you get off bupenorphine?

Well, OPIATE addicts IN GENERAL, the relapse rate is well over 90%
and Im not sure how that's calculated, but I can honestly say, that I tried quiting on my own, SEVERAL times, before going on suboxone. SEVERAL
and every time, I was always way worse, even if it was only two days,,, when I started again, I was like
"" F- THIS "" If I'm gonna be a JUNKIE, I'm gonna be a damn good one""
So that's why the suboxdoc, and people like the doctor I see, say that suboxone SHOULD be used for the "long term" so you can distance yourself from your "using days"


Such as the damage i think my liver is taking from recent bloodwork. After patterns of elevated enzymes. The fact that it has a HIGH relapse rate. Go figure using a opiate for a opiate, ::Dough!:: -homer simpson The idea that it's withdraw symptoms are SO drawn out that those poor guys who are taking suboxone.


Umm, if you were an opiate addict, you DO realize that ALL opiates are hard on the liver, yes?
so IF you were ummm like ME for instance, and took HANDFULS of pills, that probably wasn't so awesome, for your liver. but blame the suboxone, I really do not care.

When they were orginally just on low dose hydrocodone, tramadol, codeine, sometimes low dose oxycodone. If people think that cold turkey from some of those are bad. It can be a shell shock when they are faced with potent bupenorphine w/d. Sorry but if it was labeled methadone light. Or diet methadone i don't think i'd be so inclined to cause a ruckus.

sure, I took tramadol, by the handful when I was in w/d... that's about it.
MOST of the time, I was taking methadone, 80mg first thing in the a.m, then another 8 in the afternoon, sometimes more.
when my script would run out for that I'd sell other people's pain pill scripts,,
morphine, dillaudid, whatever I could get ahold of.....
I knew exactly what day each of my "contacts" got thier refill, sometimes reminding THEM to "call it in"
I'd IV out in the parking lot, while waiting for people to come and buy some from me.
so, NOT ALL OF US,
were those "that only" were addicted to hydrocodone, or whatever the point was here.
and, I for one,
never sucessfully detoxed, after I was about 25, until suboxone,,, I'd make it about 48 hours, and then I steal something, from somewhere to "feel better"
always......
I felt like the w/d got worse and worse,as my addiction progressed, and then I just didnt care anymore... I felt like I was worthless, and was NO GOOD For anyone. I sometimes wished that I'd just fall asleep and not wake up, so I wouldn't have to lie and steal yet another day.


I'm sorry i can't just act all content and pretend like everything is just peaches and creme when i know there is a storm cloud waiting for me on the otherside.

Well, Im not sure WHERE you read that, but there's PLENTY of "bad mouthing" of suboxone around here. Nobody gets warned, for bad mouthing suboxone.... anymore.
but if you bad mouth the PEOPLE that TAKE SUBOXONE, well then I may have a problem with that. Talk all the shit you want about the drug, AND the freaking idiots with RB,,,, who cares??


You know what scares me? That in 5 years or so that this high dose bupe tablet is going to be one of those recall drugs for major lawsuits and serious adverse reactions. I guess people want to pretend or push outta there heads some of the stuff i listed above. Or pretend like it will be different for them.


WELL, you could say this about ANY DRUG you pick up from a PHARMACY.........
ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
seriously.
and it IS a scary thing, YOUR RIGHT.... but know what's scarier than that????
the thought of me shooting dope in my arm , again.

But if the reality of it scares everyone so much that they bunch together like sheep and start bashing me. I will leave and head over to subsux dot com. It's where i think i'll see the nonbelievers after they have been on this long enough and start to wake up.

have I bashed you???
I don't think I have.
and if you WANT a suboxone hating site, then by all means, go over there... I really do not care, as I already stated, above.

and just for the "record"
ANYONE in w/d is goiing to HATE SUBOXONE,, why would you think ANYTHING different???
many people vent here while coming off it, only to come back later and say well it was good in this way, blah blah blah,
but I'll never take it again cuz of the w/d
OK,,,
that's not so bad , if it SAVES YOUR LIFE, right?

and I'm pretty sure Im awake!!!


If people care to have intelligent discussion with me without getting all... No my doctor is right and were on the same page. Remember for those who let a doc put us on pain pills to begin with, where that lead to after awhile.

WELL, I for ONE, got cut off from EVERY doctor I ever saw for pain meds... EVERY SINGLE ONE
and at ONE point in time I was Seeing THREE pain managment doctors, so even though it was in fact the dr.s giving me pain meds,
I wasn't "exactly" being honest........... so then I bought a whole shitload off the streets, and also sold other's people's RXs to
TRY and support my habit.
HA HA HA
that didn't work out so good.

This wasn't an attack, or a "bash" by any means, there was just a FEW things I wanted to address, and I wanted to give examples from my point of view. that's all.

[marq=right]thanks for reading, I know this was a long one :wink:[/marq]

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:15 am 
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chaimeragiest, what are you suggesting? It's not like people just casually decide to start taking suboxone. They're on a much worse drug before that doesn't offer many solutions. Opiates are extremely dangerous. Especially taking in the large amounts that suboxone requires people to be on to get prescribed. Suboxone offers people a safe and manageable stepping stone to become clean. Are you forgetting how hard it is to detox from drugs like oxycodone or heroin when you don’t have the money, will, or patience at first to put together a schedule to keep their lives in order? It's unpractical to expect people to just all of the sudden stop using and get the long term help they need when they are going through withdrawals and the little money they have not buy the hard drugs on the street to not feel the withdrawals.

The relapse rate is extremely high which is why some people make the decision that they want to keep their lives the same and continue taking suboxone for the rest of their lives at their expense, not anyone else’s. Sure suboxone has some bad side effects but what other choice do you have?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:38 am 
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I chose to go on Suboxone after I'd (a) gone to rehab 5+ times and detox countless times (b) moved interstate away from all family and friends to try to escape my addiction (c) had tried all kinds of non maintenance therapies, including naltrexone. (d) had suffered a heroin overdose that left my left wrist and hand paralysed for 6 months.

It was a really hard decision. In the back of my mind I knew that I'd had some kinda success and had maintained 13 months clean, and 7 months another time. But I also knew that the constant getting clean and eventually relapsing was starting to hurt me spiritually so bad that I knew I couldn't take it again. This is when I decided to go back on Suboxone (I had been on it once years ago). I'm glad I made this decision, because the first time in my life now I've been able to study successfully at uni and get great grades. And now I actually believe I have a chance to lead a normal life. I never believed this before, even when I was a year clean in NA (coincidentally who are always focused on how addicts are different to normal people).

I still am focused on getting off Suboxone one day. The fact my bipolar keeps dragging me back seems to delay that point but I'm determined that I will get there, even if it means "high jumping" off a high dose of Sub.

However, I COULD NOT achieve what I have on Sub going straight from addiction. It's virtually impossible to re-learn how to live a normal life and take care of yourself while at the same time fighting the insanity and cravings of early recovery. Sub has given me the chance to take on those two challenges one at a time.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:17 am 
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What I don't understand, Mr. Chaim, is why you show up here with such an obvious chip on your shoulder. As if we are going to form a mob and boot you out! Maybe it's from the paranoia that you admit you have.

We have current topics in "Side Effects" on elevated liver enzymes, headaches, and joint pain. No one is living in a rose colored world. Sub has side effects that run the gamut from annoying to debilitating, depending on the person taking it. Some figure out and report that they can't stay on sub. No one calls these people out for not staying on sub. No one here denies that sub doesn't work for some people.

We have other sections on quitting sub. People spell out in detail their struggle to get off sub and stay off. No one censors them because they say withdrawing from sub is difficult and frustrating. We are honest on this forum. We try to speak of our own personal experiences instead of generalizing what we feel onto everyone else. We learn from each other and try to lift each other up. If you want to go hang out at subsux, go ahead and do it. Just don't pretend that you were railroaded from this forum.

It seems that people with an agenda tend to make assumptions about how they will be treated here without even bothering to find out. But as long as you're not attacking other people or presuming that your experience with sub makes you an expert over everyone else, you can get along here just fine.

I also, personally, find the victim-playing pretty distasteful. I'm sorry that you didn't do your homework before you started taking the opiates prescribed by your doctor. When I decided to take opiates and again when I decided to be on sub, I did my homework. I knew before induction that there were side-effects, that the withdrawal process was difficult and potentially long. The information was very easy to find.

So feel free to stick around. You may be able to help someone by offering encouragement or advice. Maybe you'll even learn something along the way. Just please don't try to paint us as the antagonist in the story you've constructed.

Cheers,
Amy

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:40 pm 
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Chaim, get a grip --- you are actually comparing a free forum, hosted at Lunar pages on open- source software, to clandestine military operations? If that is how your mind works, I doubt anyone here will ever satisfy you.

You avoided the problem of he young woman. She needs help now, and you just rambled about a theoretical day in the future. Like all of us did, she needs help now. I'm curious, Chaim, what you would offer her.

Will you tell her to just try harder? Hopefully you recognize how silly that advice would be. She has already tried harder-- ad harder still. Didn't work.

Would you suggest she drop another 10 grand (that she doesn't have) on another residential treatment? Will you pay for it? Do you really thing it would keep her clean very long?

Time is ticking, Chaim.... What are you going to do to help her? Hook her up with a methadone clinic? Send her to NA, so she can get phone numbers of the heroin dealers in town? You could offer Vivitrol; it only costs $1000 per month (not counting doctor visits). But she would need to be clean for a few weeks. She says 'heck, I can't say clean for a few DAYS". Besides, she says--- I'm an opioid addict and I don't want all my endorphins blocked. Oh--- and we know about the liver toxicity of naltrexone--- Something that has never been associated with bupe.

I'm truly interested,Chaim; Drop the theory and the musing about imaginary worlds. She needs help today. What are you going to do?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:43 am 
What would i offer her. Well like a good generic doc that i originally went to i would give her about oh say… 5 minutes of my time. make her pee in a cup. give her 4mg strip to take under the tongue in office if she said she didn't take opiates within 24 hour time frame. Even though i watched someone on methadone that day find out what happens if you only wait a day. How frightening. Then i would sent her out in record time like 10mins total with a script for a two week time starting at 8mg. Dropping my 2mg for two weeks. Assuming the patient will do this on there own and take there last days dose at two mg's. Then give clonidine, tramadol, and a anxiety pill for a week. Taking like 0.1 mg of clondine. Tramadol 50mg no more then three times a day, and in my case, lorazapam 0.5 two to three times a day. ( I was already prescribed ativan by the VA and had a ton of this med anyway.) And that's that. Ohhh and tell her to have a good "support system" But only do this if they have 300 bucks each visit!

Realistically to save someones life i would explain that inpatient would be monitored and at least guarantee supervision as long as they haven't tried that over and over. BUT, this method alone if they stayed in it the full way through would at LEAST guarantee supervision and the fact that they would live to see another day.

When people show up to these sub docs not accepting insurance for the most part and getting shot down left and right by these guys when they don't have any money at rock bottom but still got insurance is SICKING AS IT IS. So lets not factor in the cost. My habit was cheaper then the crap i was paying for with a sub doc. I was at pain management with my pain meeds costing like 8 bucks. So please don't play the money card. Your at rock bottom. 300 dollars for like a two weeks worth of subs at some places and the cost of the films or even worse the tablets… It's easier to just buy em off the street. Maybe you could offer regular subutex but most docs say it doesn't have the blocker in it. Why would they wanna save ya money. U already got there pants down there ankles at a 300 dollar fee for 5 mins of face to face time. Why not tact on a expensive script to em to. With a lie attached that subtext is "only given to pregnant women" it doesn't have the blocker in it. It's a blatant lie. I know there little course to get the certification taught em better… (maybe?)

Anyways, 10grand for impatient to save a life? Would you pay for it? HELL NO most doctors wouldn't especially with this sub racket. They are in the business of taking. and not accepting insurance. This is hilarious you would ask that. Utterly hilarious. Cash only. and i'll dangle this script of your meds until i see the cash leave your hands. HOW RIDICULOUS. It feels as though i just walked outta a shady ass dealers house. I feel dirty, fake, like the synthetic opiate suboxone.

Do i think impatient would keep her clean long? It stands a fairer chance then giving someone more drugs that after stopping fair the same horrible odds. Really how do you rationalize this. I think the dollar signs just keep pushing patients through a lot of these establishments. How odd. You got money. I got replacement drugs. Hell i got meeds if you sent her to me that i will charge her three hundred and set her up with a taper and all. Plus, i'll give her 20 mins of face 2 face time since i don't have a piece of paper to say i can legally push these drugs. : (

Trashing the liver with dupe? it's the only drug i take and it's doing a good job of raising my liver enzymes to the point of another liver ultrasound through the VA. I hope for my sake i can't make you eat your words on this. It sure isn't from years and years of abuse. Unless you count 3 months of 200 to 300mg of oxycodone as the culprit. But im going to say the 10 months of sub treatment is the issue as i've had bloodwork/labs the WHOLE time through this.

Remember… She NEEDS help today and this doc needs 300 bucks? Right… a dealer needs money for a fix. Someone at rock bottom needing help will be shot down no problem without CASH in hand. They must be scripting themselves something fierce in this offices nationwide to live with this shit. Let me know what there taking that kills all compassion and feelings for others…

Now i know this isn't everywhere. But this is the case in the 3 places i've seen.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:09 am 
Time is ticking. Is that why this prick when im talking to him looks at his watch like he is late for golf? I know the clock is burning. Trust me, i can shoot move and communicate faster then you can adjust your rollie chair and pen out a script for subs.
You act like this is all down under better circumstances. like this places are ran with mostly great doctors who care about you. Instead you got assholes double booking appt slots. Docs continuously going on vacation and coming in late all the time. I always tell the guys in the office waiting room i hope he is having a great time on his multiple vacations on ours and others expensive. Turning down patients without cash or credit cards. Doctors giving you sometimes 5 or 10 minutes on a good day. Doctors lieing saying that subutex doesen't have the blocker his patients need. Or only pregnant women take it. It's pathetic. Mine as well have the spine to tell you. I don't trust your ass and you need to take the expensive one. You got places that set your appts up for different days do to doctors/staff messing shit up on schedules. Hell i had receptionist double charge my debit card once and i noticed it through online backing and i got it fixed after 3 hours of back and forth calling. Instead of playing golf with this guys why don't you actually try to straighten some of this mess out a little more? The three i've been to make me feel like the swat time is about to bust into it at anytime. It is literally drug dealing. When i go and pay. Usually the staff cracks a smile and turns human again all the sudden like they are happy with our transaction and im off for another month.

They are recovering right? These guys i see month after month look sad each time i see em, ask for a dose increase, walk out like they won the lottery, then after a few months, same situation. Need a increase. Untill they max out with what that doc feels comfertable writing. And hell two of my docs will put you to 32mg if you keep saying. Well i'm having cravings. Ur at 24 mg and having cravings. But it was peaches and creme a few moths ago. This is digger people deeper and this is recovery? ARE YOU SERIOUS???? This is what helps people noose themselves. Turn into shells of a human with no life behind there eyes. I see VERY few people who dose to live and not live to dose. This is sicking and you actually have the nerve to ask what i would do. Trust me, my help would not be to enslave someone further into drugs. I'd offer help. But not anything longer then what they were using for like some assholes think is ok. That is detrimental.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:16 am 
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Chaim, maybe if you stopped hanging around other people who abuse their Suboxone, and who are only in it to get a cheap buzz ... you might realise that your world - what you think is 'normal' - is a lot smaller than you think.

Nobody is denying that Suboxone has abuse potential. It's not the ideal candidate for abuse but the potential is still there. Where you're wrong is when you assume that everyone else in here is in it for a buzz like you are. If I wanted a buzz, I'd use heroin. And I have been known to do exactly that. Why would I waste my time on a drug like Suboxone?

The other thing. You act as if being on Suboxone is some kind of "cop out", that we're just replacing an opioid with an opioid. I agree that we are replacing one opioid with another - that is why many countries call it Opioid Replacement Therapy (ORT) - or Substitution Pharmacotherapy. But considering it a cop out is just a poor indictment on yourself ain't it? Oh sorry, you're not using Suboxone as an addiction treatment. You're not kidding yourself with that game. You're using it to get high!! If you weren't, you woulda asked your doctor for a dose reduction by now.

Your implication that Suboxone patients experience "dose creep" - or the desire to increase their dose when they become tolerant ... is interesting. However, one of Sub's main benefits is that the potential for dose creep subsides once dose levels exceed the ceiling. This is why Sub has a LOT less potential for dose creep than methadone. I know this for a fact, having had my dose go from 30-40mg up to 110mg of methadone. The increase in my overall tolerance to opioids during that period created lasting changes in my brain IMO, and left me experiencing stronger cravings to use later on than I ever had. While I agree there is some "dose creep" with Suboxone, it is nowhere near this level, and pretty much disappears once a person's dose exceeds the ceiling effect. But I do agree that more doctors need to be aware of it, and be wary of the long term consequences of increasing a patient's overall tolerance to opioids.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:57 am 
First off it's obvious i got a little internal battle with this drug. But i'd like to first off say thanks a lot to subdoc for responding whether or not he likes anything i am saying is beyond the point. I got a fair amount of respect for him within the last few days considering he is tackling all the bitches, gripes, and compliants i've had since the get go of my "treatment" Three damn doctors would not give me the time of day or even attempt to tackle any of what i am saying. So again, i've watched a few of your videos and i do commend you for being what i thought going into this thing should have been like from the start. Sadly, you need to be rattling your comrades to there senses. Seriously. If you take nothing else from my negativity or however im being perceived. Please do me that favor?

Teejay i never tried herion. I've done methadone, fentanyl, hydromorphone, opana, morphine, oxycodone, hydrocodone. Ya know all the pill junk. But mainly i was scripted 90mg oxycodone. I turned that after 4 months to running low and taking upwards to 200-300mg at my lowest. I was using to stay from w/d. But when i first went and got hook up on this suboxone stuff. This is one thing i have never tried as it wasn't big in my part of florida yet. Ever since all these sub clinics opened to counter the "pain clinics" which is where i was scripted the oxy. Suboxone now goes street value the same as a oxy ir 30. It's freaking insane. It's like watching florida where i've grown up. Sprout pain clinics overnight. and then there was this big oxy epidemic going on. Know after a few years of letting everyone ruin themselves on this crap. Suboxone clinics/docs start popping up to counteract the pill mill clinics. I just don't see a damn difference watching this unfold. And in retrospect me going to the pain clinic put me where i am now. NOW, i'm saddened by the fact that this just seems like more of the same crap. Only difference is i don't get sick as fast as i did with oxy.

Basically I FEEL as though it is a cop out. My first dose i know this stuff was bad business. Aside from the horrible experience of obtaining this drug. Dosing it hit me harder and longer then oxycodone hit me in a long time. I knew this stuff was trouble. BIG TROUBLE. Here i am taking it still. I'm not getting as buzzed off it as i was. But still. This stuff is powerful. And i know im basically still not making progress in regards to stopping being on opiates. I feel as though i am dug way deeper then i was before. and it bothers me every time i take some.

110mg of methadone? Ouch! And what you said about stronger cravings to use and it created serious changes in your brain. That is a awesome way to sum up my worst fears of taking this daily. : ' (

"that is why many countries call it Opioid Replacement Therapy (ORT) - or Substitution Pharmacotherapy. But considering it a cop out is just a poor indictment on yourself ain't it? Oh sorry, you're not using Suboxone as an addiction treatment. You're not kidding yourself with that game. You're using it to get high!! If you weren't, you woulda asked your doctor for a dose reduction by now."

Opiate replacement therapy…. That right there sums up the cop out attitude im showing. and yes it is a poor indictment on me and i admit it hurts me on a daily basis to think about it. You may or may not understand it if your in the blissfull land of supposed recovery when were really not differing at all. it's not abuse. It's a tool for recovery.. Blah blah blah. Get the idea? I'm prescribed way more to begin with. So eh. i though abusing it is taking more or diverting your stuff? I've diverted a few extras when i wasn't on the patient assistance program to cover the costs of doctors appt. Figured he is used to taking dirty money anyway. You get the idea. Forget dependent or addicted. I'm hooked on this crap. I actually don't misuse it in anyway. i take it the right way and all. Unless you count using cotton balls, high proof alcohol, and suboxone as abuse..?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:52 pm 
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Hiya Hatmaker,

You are completely right. Addiction n dependence are not the same thing. We get 'withdrawal symptoms' when giving up antidepressants that's why we're always told you cannot just 'stop them,' you have to wean off them. Suboxone---like antidepressants, is a medication to help us break our addictions--- limit cravings, withdrawal symptoms n help us to try to form some sort of normal functioning life. Simply ignore people like that, it is not worth it. Try to get better that's all that matters. it's far better being on suboxone than in active addiction--- losing friends, family members, credibility n doing things we don't want to do to get our DOC, spending money we can't really afford. I spend $257 a fortnight on codeine 60 mg tablets. Yes I may not have been on heroin like some of you but tbh I did have the thoughts to n the only thing that ever stopped me was I don't know how to contact a dealer and----SOBOXONE... so I'm sorry but I'd rather be 'addicted to suboxone, where I'm going to the pharmacy n getting an 8 mg tablets a day to put under my tongue, than obsess over getting codeine, where to get it, how much do I need for it, an excuse to get it, what can I get that's stronger, where would I contact a dealer to get me stronger opiates..... you get the message. Personally anyone suffering opiate addication should have the right to suboxone even if it's CODEINE, hydrocodone, dehydrocodeine or whatever because, as I have said here n on other posts, weaker opiates lead to stronger opiates n I'm already admitting that I had thoughts of seeking stronger opiates. I've been on suboxone two months n twelve days but where would I be now if it were not for suboxone??? because my next door neighbour is a heroin addict.

ok rant over

Please take care everyone,

Hugs, Evey xxx

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:40 pm 
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So what about someone like me? I am not getting paid to say sub has helped my life I didn't start taking it because I was a true addict. I started taking pain pills because I have a SERIOUS condition. They started me off on Percocet when I was only 17 take 4 every day and I would be fine. Then I had a baby a few years later which in turn made my back even worse. So they put me on a even higher dose, which helped but when it came down to it I was 21 and fully dependent on opioids, now I am 23 still unable to do majority of the things a person my age is supposed to do. I went to detox to get all of the opioid out of my system but as soon as I returned home I was crippled with pain all over again. My doctor offered to let me try sub for a few days to see if it helped at first I hated it. Then after trying different options and amounts the 4mg of sub 2 times a day made my life just a little but manageable. So if that makes me a fucking sheep then baaaaaa.. because now I am able to be a strong mother and wife I can't actually do things without having to constantly hurt in the worst way possible. And I know pain buddy I had my daughter naturally NO DRUGS involved, that was a walk in the park compared to what I deal with on a daily basis. This drug has not saved my life it gave me a life I can enjoy. So just quit being a assholes. Peace


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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