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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:19 am 
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Hey I am fairly new to this site but not to suboxone or opiates. I was on opiates for probally about 5 years and 2 of them were were probably everyday straight. Anyway I am 22 I have been on suboxone for about a year now and am down to 6-8 mg a day...started on 24mg. The question I have is that I a probably going to the military as soon as I can get off this crap I am done with opiates for good I am pretty sure, and just found out that I am having a kid which has me a little crazy so I need to move on. Does anyone know if a in-patient facility would help me detox from the suboxone quick.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:38 am 
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You can't really detox any faster by going in-patient. There is what's called rapid detox, but it costs upwards of $15-20,000.00 and only gets you through some of the acute withdrawals. It does nothing for PAWS (post-acute withdrawal syndrome). Plus remember, getting off it is the easy part, it's staying off it and not relapsing that's the hard part.

May I ask you a question? You referred to suboxone as "this crap". Why do you feel that way? Have you had problems with your sub treatment? Of course you don't have to answer, but I'm curious as to your feelings on it.

The best and least painful way to get off of sub is to do a long, slow taper. I know that's not what you want to hear, but that's pretty much the best way. Are you really ready to stop treatment? Have you learned new coping skills and how to deal with the inevitable triggers and cravings you will get? Remember, sub stops the cravings and when you go off they could hit you hard. It's just that it sounds like you're in a real hurry to get off it, and when we stop it for all the wrong reasons and are unprepared it's frankly a recipe for disaster. Don't get me wrong, I want to see you succeed. I just want to also be honest and tell you what challenges face you ahead.

I'm sorry I can't be of more help. Good luck!

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:57 am 
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I understand what your saying and know all about how it helps cravings and all, but the thing is now I am addicted to it and when I try to come off I get sick , maybe that is why I call it this crap. Just because I ask my doc what I can do to get off I know its a process but I just do not have time anymore by being on it it is holding me back from being able to do things I need too. The main reason I was doing opiates so long was because if I did not have them I would get sick now I am on something else that if I do not have I get sick and am in the same position. I am not trying to say that I am not an addict, I know I am and have been in treatment and trying hard as hell to stay clean and really feel like I can deal with it, I do not mind doing a slow taper that is what I have been doing for a year but now I kind of need to move on cause the military def will not let me take it and I am having a kid in 8 months and just need to move on that is why i was asking if a detox clinic might help, like by weening me off with a small methadone dose for a week if that is even possible I do not know.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:24 am 
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I hear your frustration and I'm sorry that you feel so...trapped. Maybe this will help your perspective a bit .... You are not addicted to suboxone, you're dependent on it. There's a huge difference. Remember what we used to do when we were on full agonists/pain pills? The lying, cheating, stealing? All the damage done to our relationships? How we always had to take more and more...etc etc?? Are you still doing those things with suboxone? Do you obsess about how to get more? I'd say no. Just because we have withdrawals when we go off it, doesn't mean we're addicted to it. It's about the behaviors and the havoc wreaked on our lives that's the difference between addiction and dependence. So please try to ease up on yourself and maybe if you look at it this way it will give you some peace of mind.

As for in-patient, I highly doubt they would give you anything like methadone to help with the detox. It's more likely they will give you clonidine and maybe, just maybe, a benzo and a sleep med. They will likely just give you non-opiates to try to make your more comfortable. Of course every place is different.

If you're on 6-8 mg a day, just start lowering your dose and you could very well be off of them by the time that 8 months is up (BTW, congrats!). The slower you go the less withdrawal symptoms you will have. The faster you go, the more discomfort you will have. Give yourself a taper schedule, yet be flexible with it. Reduce your dose by say 10-20% every couple or few weeks, letting your body adjust to that dosage before you drop again.

YOU CAN DO THIS. But please, don't be so hard on yourself. Think of it this way - would you ever have been able to taper off or even lower your dose of your old DOC? Highly doubtful - none of us could. But with sub, we actually can.

I sincerely hope this helps. And please do keep us posted on how you're doing. Good luck and again, congratulations.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:46 pm 
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AbruzzoS wrote:
I was asking if a detox clinic might help, like by weaning me off with a small methadone dose for a week if that is even possible I do not know.


AbruzzoS - Maybe I can shed some additional light... I got on suboxone through a detox facility to come off of Methadone. I can tell you right now that getting off of Methadone is 100x harder than pretty much any other opiate, even heroin for that matter. It sounds like you weren’t necessarily asking for Methadone, but rather something to ease the w/d stopping the sub would cause...just wanted to point that out.

Regarding detox, like I said above, I went to a 5 day facility (in patient) to get off the Methadone. Not knowing much about the inner-workings of a facility like that, I didn’t know how the whole process worked. I say that because for ME, if I had it to do all over again, I would have made an appt. with my GP to see if I could get a script for most or all of the meds they gave me in there. I then would have done the "detox" at home. This is just MY personal opinion/experience. It’s not that the detox facilities are bad in any way necessarily, but having to stay there for 5 days trying to detox when I theoretically could have done it in the comfort of my own home wasn’t the best choice (looking back) for ME.

That said, I’m not discounting detox facilities in any way, a LOT of people need that structure to successfully get off whatever it is they're on. My personal mind set was that I was getting off the methadone one way or another and wanted absolutely nothing to do with it ever again. So, no matter what happened, short of me being on the brink of death was going to detour me from that plan....detoxing from home or otherwise.

I’m not sure what kind of time frame you’re working with, but as most, if not all will agree, a taper is the best, or should I say most comfortable way to go. I went from 6mg down to .8 (current mg) inside of a couple months....and for me, it’s been painless aside from some minimal anxiety/sleep issues.

How has your taper gone thus far? Have you had any moderate to intense wd going from 24mg to your current 6-8mg? If not, with me anyway, I didn’t even get the slightest bit of wd until I got down to 1mg or below, and even there the wd's are so minimal, if I didn’t know I was "tapering" I would pass it off and not think twice about it.

Good luck with everything, I hope it goes smooth for you no matter which route you take...


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:43 pm 
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Hey thanks for the reply it was very helpful.. this is what I did I do not know if it was smart but it did kind of work.. the subs were really getting to me I been working a lot have a kid coming and was stressing about making appointments and one weekend I ran out of the subs. I did opiates that weekend and checked into a detox on Monday and did 5 day detox with methadone, librium, and clonadine, at the end I felt pretty good a lot better than I did taking the subs everyday I think my doc had me on them to long and just taking them for a year and was getting to the point where I did not feel like myself. Right not I am feeling a little anxiety and got some xanax for that so I will see how I feel in a couple days but this might of worked I am really strong willed on getting off totally as I might got to the military soon but thanks for all your advice I will keep you posted on how I am doing. Thanks


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:19 pm 
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abruzzos---I can sense your urgency in this situation, and I completely understand. You have to understand who you are doing this for. Hopefully for you and your baby....because a relapse wouldn't do either one of you good! It is also advised not to do a quick taper on Sub while pregnant because the baby can have effects from maternal withdrawals. They say not to come off of it at all, that in fact it is safer for the baby to potentially go through withdrawal after being born than being affected within the womb as mom is going through withdrawal. But if you are going to do it anyway, SLOW, SLOW, SLOW!

I'm glad you went to treatment for help. I hope you are continuing to stay on top of your recovery. Keep us updated and take care of yourself!!
--Sarah


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:53 pm 
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I am sorry I am not the one pregnant my girlfriend is and she was able to get clean and I felt it would be best if I did even though she was not really an addict she would be an occasional user. I have not have a sub in a week and methadone in 2 days and I am not that bad the worst I am feeling is a little chills and stuffy nose and watery eyes which I can deal with, just trying to stay busy so I do not think about it. Thanks for the responses I am hoping by tomorrow or the day after I will be a little better, but I still feel like I have so much more energy right now, so just trying to stay strong minded and not think about it and staying away from it even though I really have no cravings the only reason I would possibly think of doing anything is to ease withdrawals but I am not even thinking of that right now just trying to ride it out. Thanks for the support


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:01 pm 
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That's an interesting way to go about stopping Suboxone. I think it was incredibly wise to check yourself into inpatient after using for the weekend. It's interesting to me that you've gotten this far as fast as you have! I am truly very happy for you.

I guess it's a mute point now, but it's absolutely IMO not worth it to do a rapid taper. Along with the insane cost, it doesn't even fix the worst part of getting off Sub, the PAWS. I also understand why you referred to Suboxone as "this crap" and I frequently do refer to it in the same way, as I'm tapering right now and it gets very frustrating. :D I do consider myself addicted to Suboxone, at least according to my own definition of addiction and to the definition given in the dictionary. Specifically, I am 'physiologically dependent' on Suboxone. If I don't take it, it will impair my normal functioning. Suboxone causes painful withdrawal symptoms when stopped suddenly. I have made repeated attempts to stop Suboxone and have been unsuccessful. When I had to stop Suboxone to have surgery, I was miserable and all I wanted was to get back on. I was desperate to get it and would have gone way out of my way to do so if I didn't have an ample supply from my doctor. Yup, I'm addicted to it as well as dependent on it, as far as I can tell, but that's just me. I've been on it now for 5.5 years and I got to where I didn't feel or act like myself, so I can relate to that part of what you said too. Thankfully, in between the w/d symptoms, I'm feeling more positive and excited about everything again.

AbruzzoS, I hope you continue down a good path and work very hard at being in recovery. It does take hard work. Please know that it's highly, highly unlikely that you will ever be able to use opiates again without getting totally hooked on them, which will put you right back where you started. Watch your back very carefully. It's possible to stay off the full agonist opiates even when not taking a partial agonist opiate, but it's a lot harder. Don't ever start thinking you are out of the addiction woods! There is something worse than being addicted to Suboxone....specifically, being addicted to regular opiates or even worse, being dead from opiate addiction. Those things are real and very scary possibilities that will become likelihoods if you start thinking you can take opiates for fun once in a while. I know you already know all this, but I'm just reminding you, because I want you to make it and be happy. Now that you are going to be a dad, you are going to have a whole lot to lose, and I don't want you to ever risk losing it.

I so respect how much you are trying to support your girlfriend and be there for her. You sound like a stand up guy. BTW, she gets big kudos from me for cleaning up when she got pregnant. Good for her!! You guys have a chance to be a very happy little family. I'm excited for you. The next few months may be tough on you. Be prepared for that. You may struggle with feeling anxious, wiped out, and/or depressed for a while. If you start feeling super low in the next couple months, just keep reminding yourself that the best thing that will ever happen to you in your whole entire life is coming down the pike...you're gonna be a daddy!! Someone's sun, moon, and stars are going to revolve around you and until that happens, you just have no clue how friggin' fantastic it's truly going to be. That moment when you meet your baby for the first time....well, you'll just have to wait and see. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:44 pm 
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Not to be pissy, but addition is a neurobiological disease that has genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors. It is characterized by one or more of the following behaviors:

* Poor control over drug use
* Compulsive drug use
* Continued use of a drug despite physical, mental and/or social harm
* A craving for the drug

Physical dependence is the body's adaptation to a particular drug. In other words, the individual's body gets used to receiving regular doses of a certain medication. When the medication is abruptly stopped or the dosage is reduced too quickly, the person will experience withdrawal symptoms. Although we tend to think of opioids when we talk about physical dependence and withdrawal, a number of other drugs not associated with addiction can also result in physical dependence (i.e., antidepressants, beta blockers, corticosteroids, etc.) and can trigger unpleasant withdrawal symptoms if stopped abruptly.
http://www.healthcentral.com/chronic-pa ... 488-5.html

I just wanted to again make the distinction clear. I don't personally know anyone who is addicted to suboxone, although I'm not saying no one is.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:56 pm 
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Hat, not sure if you were responding to what I said, but I'm thinking you were. I read that link, and I absolutely do get the point of what they are saying, even though that link doesn't really apply a whole lot because it's about chronic pain patients and determining whether their use of opiates for pain is an addiction or a dependency. I didn't say you are addicted to Suboxone. I said I am addicted to Suboxone. No need to be pissy. :D I am addicted to Suboxone because it's not doing anything for me except making me sick if I don't take it. Don't take it personally, because it's not meant to be personal.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:39 pm 
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ladd,

Thank you for that very encouraging post it made me feel so many different emotions, and yes I do know I can not use opiates at all have figured that out with 3 trips to detox and am only 22. I can not wait for my son/daughter and I hope I can always be there for them they way my family was for me. I do know about PAWs and if you have any advice on what to do please let me know. I have been taking amino acids and a lot of other vitamins and started to even work out a little and being able to spend time with my girlfriend keeps me off the streets. With the suboxone it got to the point where it just was making me feel crappy everyday I just wanted off and I totally know where your coming from whether its addiction dependence whatever you want to call it, it will make you go crazy. When you are about to run out and your going crazy trying to make that appointment because you know you will be sick and trying to conserve whatever you have left. But I have been two days out of detox and doing some benzos which I never really had a problem with but just trying to keep my anxiety under control, but thanks for the support.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:41 pm 
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AbruzzoS wrote:
ladd,

Thank you for that very encouraging post it made me feel so many different emotions, and yes I do know I can not use opiates at all have figured that out with 3 trips to detox and am only 22. I can not wait for my son/daughter and I hope I can always be there for them they way my family was for me. I do know about PAWs and if you have any advice on what to do please let me know. I have been taking amino acids and a lot of other vitamins and started to even work out a little and being able to spend time with my girlfriend keeps me off the streets. With the suboxone it got to the point where it just was making me feel crappy everyday I just wanted off and I totally know where your coming from whether its addiction dependence whatever you want to call it, it will make you go crazy. When you are about to run out and your going crazy trying to make that appointment because you know you will be sick and trying to conserve whatever you have left. But I have been two days out of detox and doing some benzos which I never really had a problem with but just trying to keep my anxiety under control, but thanks for the support.


I wish so much I had the magic formula for PAWS, as in for avoiding PAWS. I don't think anyone does. I think for the most part, you have to ride it out. I think you are doing a great job with the supplements and the exercise. I truly believe exercise will speed it along and help you get back to normal much faster because it pushes your brain to start functioning normally again. Plus, it will help with the anxiety. The best advice I can give you is to keep doing what you're doing and to be careful with the benzos. I know the anxiety is really uncomfortable. I've been getting a bit of it lately and it's pretty intense. You will come out the other side though. I think when I jump I'll put a calendar on the wall and 'X' off the days, because every day is a huge accomplishment. I cannot wait to be free from Subs too! My best friend is on her third day off from jumping and she feels like total crap but she's so happy to be "free at last".

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:20 pm 
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good for you...keep up the good activities! This part, although feels like HELL, is IMO, easier than what I went through in the long run (2 months after sub--until now). I feel like when you first get off, you have this incredible motivation to stay strong and get through. So much so that you don't even THINK about using an opiate to help the WD. This time, however, is the most important time to really get ontop of your recovery. Once the WD lessen, and regular life hits again, and you think you are free and clear, out of no where, when least expecteed, you could be in a situation, and within minutes decide to use. I have not done this myself, but the temptations have been there, and are very hard to ignore. But I know my recovery is way too important to me to go back, but it doesn't mean you don't think about it or aren't tempted. The PAWS are hard to deal with, but EXERCISE is the best way to deal with it. Exercise helped me TONS too when I first started going through the withdrawal. Like I've said before, it will be a year in June that I stopped Suboxone, and I still have PAWS. You just have to ride through it.

Regarding being addicted to Suboxone...I was very much so addicted. It was much more than physical, completely psycological as well, which was why my taper was SOO hard to do. I have no doubt, I was addicted to Suboxone, just like I was addicted to any other medication before Suboxone. I am not dissing Sub, it helped me get on my feet, however, I think 2 years was way to long to be on it, and that WD coming off any other narc was not half as bad or LONG as Sub WD was. I know it has saved lives, I am not underminding that in the least bit.

Anyway, GOOD LUCK! Keep us posted on your journey! --Sarah


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:56 pm 
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Hopeful, what you said about cravings surprising you after that initial period after coming off suboxone is something I've said before. I use different terminology of course though. I talk about remaining vigilant and knowing that relapse is still and could always be a possibility. Being aware of that can protect someone from that happening. So it's nice to hear someone on the same page.

On the subject of addiction vs dependence. I still believe there is a huge difference between the two. And I find it surprising that so many people believe that you had/have the same maladaptive and self-destructive behaviors on suboxone as you did on your DOC. Things that caused us to lie, cheat, and steal just to chase that high. Weren't relationships, work and jobs, and ever freedom damaged if not ruined while in active addiction? And didn't suboxone treatment allow you to repair those things? Did you crave suboxone like you craved your drug of choice? Were you still craving the high? No disrespect intended, but I find that hard to believe. That said I know some people who aren't on the right dose for them that do have cravings for their DOC and still want to get high, but they don't crave suboxone. Please believe me, I'm not trying to argue or insult anyone. I'm just thinking maybe I wasn't clear earlier about the difference between addiction/active addiction and the dependence we have on suboxone as we compare the two. I'll leave it at that and won't beat a dead horse. I hope I haven't done that already.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:56 pm 
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hatmaker--I completely see what you are saying. And no, I was not chasing a high, lieing, cheating myself, and doing destructive things on Suboxone like I did before Sub. BUT, there were sooo many times, that I feared not having my Suboxone on time, that I was anxious to take it, that when time to taper came around, my WD set in, even with a terribly slow taper. And as long as I had the Suboxone in my possesion, going through WD, I was SO VERY TEMPTED to take more, just to take it away. It got so bad that I just stopped cold turkey because I hated doing the up and down thing (feeling good one day about the taper, then feeling like hell the next). AND I AM NOT PROMOTING COLD TURKEY IN ANYWAY, none the less, it is apart of my story, and is what I did. My body would not have gone through WD had it not been dependant on the drug. And honestly, if you are an addict, you will always have certain tendancies, and one cannot expect all those tendancies to completely go away, even within a year or two time on Suboxone, and even getting complete treatment and therapy. There are certain things addicts will hold on to forever. It is a lifetime process to deal with these things. That is recovery.

I don't mean to debate it. I understand, Hatmaker, what you are saying, and totally accept your point of view, because everybody's experience is different. This is just my experience. And I have been sober since getting off of sub last June and am full fledge into my recovery, still.

And didn't mean to jack this thread from the original poster! Sorry!

--Sarah


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:17 pm 
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I totally understand what you are saying and do understand what you mean about addiction and dependence. It is very tricky though I have friends who think they are not addicts because the doctor gives them opiates, just like mine did and is how I started, but than they do not do the job anymore and you take more and more for no pain so is that an addict or someone being dependent, because meanwhile if they do not take them they get sick and will do anything to get that next script, if that makes sense I am not the best writer to describe what I mean. But I am not trying to debate the difference just saying what I feel. While on sub I was not stealing to get them but I was still doing everything I can to not feel the least bit sick and tapering was impossible at one point I was down to 6mg than all of the sudden I was feeling like such crap that I was back to 12mg and at that point I realized I was addicted and just the feeling of not having it or not be able to make my doctors appointment or that I was running low or taking to much was to much for me and was one of the many reasons I wanted to get off, but again like the other poster said I am not dissing sub it did stabilize my life and am thankful for it I blame the doctors because I do not think they know what the hell they are doing, but if someone were to need to maintain the rest of their life on sub I totally understand but with many things going on with my life I needed off, one thing is military will not take someone on subs.


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