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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:04 pm 
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ANYONE HEARD OF THE WEISMAN METHOD?? HOW MUCH DOES IT COST?
ALSO HEARD OF A IMPLANT THAT CAN BE DONE? WHAT IS THAT ABOUT AND HOW MUCH????


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:09 pm 
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Don't even bother with the Weisman method. It's a rort. They basically give a person naltrexone to precipitate withdrawal, but they do it under anaesthesia. It does not work There are horror stories about this. It's absolutely predatorial how some places continue to run this treatment. I've heard three main outcomes from rapid detox. Often they don't give enough anaesthesia, so the person remains awake through the ordeal, which is not pleasant. Then they find that at the end of the 24 hours, they're still detoxing, and have to be wheel-chaired to the taxi a blubbering mess. Thirdly, people die from this process, choking on their vomit etc. Even more die from an overdose afterwards because of their tolerance being reset.

And no matter the outcome, nobody gets their money back. I had a friend who's family sent him all the way to Israel to do this miracle cure when it first came out. On the plane back he was a shivvering mess, still in withdrawal, and he dodged his parents waiting in the terminal, got into a taxi and went to score. A waste of thousands of dollars. He said in his 15 years of using heroin, he'd never been ripped off that bad!

The naltrexone implant has potential, but I have still heard lots of bad things. It's one of those treatment adjuncts that requires a lot of motivation, and readiness to get clean. If a person wants to use on the implant, they still can, they just use dangerous amounts. Most people just abuse other drugs - meth, cocaine, benzos - until it wears off, or take huge quantities to over-ride it. Some people do well with the implants. But they need to keep getting them for a couple of years at least. It's much higher risk than Suboxone. A person can easily overdose if they relapse when the implant wears off. The implants often get "rejected" from the body, and must be removed in ER. They never get refunds either. Worst of all, I've known more than one person who has literally opened up their skin and ripped out their implant so they could use. If there's ever proof we're just as desperate as those addicted mice - in - cages, that's it.

I spent a lot of time once researching these addiction "cures". There's no easy way to get clean. There's also a reason most people are on Suboxone.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:19 am 
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I won't get into the Weisman method - Tearjerker sounds like he knows a lot more about it than I do. I also don't know anything about a naltrexone implant. But I do know there also is a buprenorphine implant. It's either in the works - studies currently going on or it's new to the market. I'm not exactly sure. I do think Diary was in a clinical trial for it though, if I recall correctly.

I guess it depends on what implant you're talking about.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:06 am 
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Here in Oz there's a clinic in Perth that specialises in implants. The guy who runs it, Dr O'Neill, is one of the few remaining global people championing naltrexone implants, pushing research & doing seminars. He swears by them. He also still does rapid detox. People fly there from all over the world. I can't say how successful he is these days. I do know that, out of all the various implant designs around the world, clinics everywhere keep going back to the "O'Neill implant" because it seems to last and have the least rejection.

Last time I was in rehab, there was a guy who had been getting implants for 3 years. But he'd always use in the periods the implants were wearing off. Then his body rejected one, and kept rejecting any further ones, and he relapsed hard. A lot of people seem to resume using once they wear off. I'm sure not everyone, but I only heard from the ones that didn't make it.

There's a good piece of information about the implants here:

First Step Clinic - Naltrexone Booklet

I do find the implant interesting. But if a person still wants to use, and goes on naltrexone... they will return to using. Just like with Suboxone / methadone / 12-steps / whatever. It's just a tool to be used as a part of a wider recovery.

I still may consider using one if I fear relapsing post-taper. It's an option on the table. First Step have had good success in doing the addiction -> Methadone -> Buprenorphine -> Naltrexone "step down".


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:04 am 
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I would also be wary of rapid detox. As is true for all 'recovery' methods, some people probably benefit from it. There was a 60 minutes story on this not too long ago, maybe you can find it on their website or on youtube. They profiled a kid (19 or 20 I think) who went through rapid detox in California, and seemed to be doing ok. No long term follow up of course.

But I've always thought there must be something to sedation during withdrawal. Back when I was switching from my DOC (oxy) and sub, when I ran out of oxy I would make sure and have plenty of benzos or ambien or something and literally sleep for two or three days, getting up only to dose my sub, use the bathroom or watch some TV until I fell back asleep. Be the end of a few days I was doing OK. Problem is, most people don't have the two or three weeks it would take to really get through withdrawals being that sedated and not using sub.

And of course it does nothing for the mental aspects. That's the true beast, isn't it? I mean, that's why some people can be on heavy opiates during a hospital stay, get out, and go through bad withdrawal thinking they have the flu or something. They don't run out and try to score. Just goes to show people who like opiates shouldn't take them and they are only useful for people who don't like the feeling. Ironic, isn't it?

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:51 am 
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mes999 hi'. if i thought IBOGAIN WORKED. this would be the step i would take, based on what can be done
fast and most comfort for all that is ready to live with out any drugs. HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERY ONE!!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:36 pm 
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MES999 wrote:
ANYONE HEARD OF THE WEISMAN METHOD?? HOW MUCH DOES IT COST?
ALSO HEARD OF A IMPLANT THAT CAN BE DONE? WHAT IS THAT ABOUT AND HOW MUCH????


During my long taper, I looked into all these things thoroughly. Well, I looked into Ibogaine and the Waisman method. They put the implant in after you go through the Waisman thing. I called all around the country for Waisman places and they told me how impossible it was to get off Sub and how there was no other way to do it other than their way. The cost is pretty dang high. It depends where you go. I think the cheapest place was in Michigan or something, but it was still thousands and thousands of dollars. They rapidly detox you, they watch you for a few days, and they stick you back on a plane. My research revealed that most people still feel crappy after those few days and for many days afterward, but you have flown home and you have an implant in you. You are kinda stuck. Even if I did have 20K to spend on a great Waisman place, I didn't want to go.

Ibogaine.....I considered this, and the cost is much lower. I called a number of Ibogaine places, and they told me that their way was the only way to get off Suboxone and how terrible the Waisman method is. However, it is illegal so you have to go underground or go to Mexico. Both these scenarios are scary. If something bad happens to you, you have rely on the goodness of people you don't know, either people who are dispensing Ibogaine illegally in the US or someone treating you in a foreign country, to find medical attention for you. This scared me to death. I have a family and there was no way I wanted something to happen to me because I went to go have Ibogaine done in some secret or far away place. The doctors in Mexico seemed fairly knowledgeable. However, the doc I found to be the most knowledgeable explained that they really haven't figured out how to make Ibogaine work well on Sub patients. So, you have to switch to something like Oxy for three weeks beforehand and they set you up with a doc to give you Oxy. So....go to Los Angeles, go get shady script from shady doctor, take that script for three weeks, fly to Mexico, people you don't know pick you up, go to Ibogaine place, be administered something that can give you a nasty trip....after you are all done and back home, you need to get boosters of Ibogaine. This scenario was way too uncertain and scary to me. Oh, and you need to have your system checked out first to make sure you can handle the Ibogaine. Specifically, they need to make sure your heart can handle it. It's no small potatoes.

MES999, I understand wanting to look into some way that will make it easier on you and I did the same thing, but I strongly advise you to stick to tapering and take your time with it. Tapering works and I know because I did it. I was on Sub almost 6 years and I tapered to such a small dose that I literally had next to no w/d when I jumped off. I went around and around with those possibly alternatives, but it all came back to just having patience. Sub's long half life makes it a doable med to taper off of, aside from the pain of cutting small doses. I'm not saying that there are no shortcuts, but the shortcuts may be not worth it for many reasons. It can really stink to taper, especially if you try to go too fast. I still think it's the best way, and there's no absolute deadline, so it's flexible and safer. Your body needs time to adjust as you drop down on your Sub. Not convinced there is any way around that.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:25 pm 
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laddertipper wrote:
MES999 wrote:
ANYONE HEARD OF THE WEISMAN METHOD?? HOW MUCH DOES IT COST?
ALSO HEARD OF A IMPLANT THAT CAN BE DONE? WHAT IS THAT ABOUT AND HOW MUCH????


During my long taper, I looked into all these things thoroughly. Well, I looked into Ibogaine and the Waisman method. They put the implant in after you go through the Waisman thing. I called all around the country for Waisman places and they told me how impossible it was to get off Sub and how there was no other way to do it other than their way. The cost is pretty dang high. It depends where you go. I think the cheapest place was in Michigan or something, but it was still thousands and thousands of dollars. They rapidly detox you, they watch you for a few days, and they stick you back on a plane. My research revealed that most people still feel crappy after those few days and for many days afterward, but you have flown home and you have an implant in you. You are kinda stuck. Even if I did have 20K to spend on a great Waisman place, I didn't want to go.

Ibogaine.....I considered this, and the cost is much lower. I called a number of Ibogaine places, and they told me that their way was the only way to get off Suboxone and how terrible the Waisman method is. However, it is illegal so you have to go underground or go to Mexico. Both these scenarios are scary. If something bad happens to you, you have rely on the goodness of people you don't know, either people who are dispensing Ibogaine illegally in the US or someone treating you in a foreign country, to find medical attention for you. This scared me to death. I have a family and there was no way I wanted something to happen to me because I went to go have Ibogaine done in some secret or far away place. The doctors in Mexico seemed fairly knowledgeable. However, the doc I found to be the most knowledgeable explained that they really haven't figured out how to make Ibogaine work well on Sub patients. So, you have to switch to something like Oxy for three weeks beforehand and they set you up with a doc to give you Oxy. So....go to Los Angeles, go get shady script from shady doctor, take that script for three weeks, fly to Mexico, people you don't know pick you up, go to Ibogaine place, be administered something that can give you a nasty trip....after you are all done and back home, you need to get boosters of Ibogaine. This scenario was way too uncertain and scary to me. Oh, and you need to have your system checked out first to make sure you can handle the Ibogaine. Specifically, they need to make sure your heart can handle it. It's no small potatoes.

MES999, I understand wanting to look into some way that will make it easier on you and I did the same thing, but I strongly advise you to stick to tapering and take your time with it. Tapering works and I know because I did it. I was on Sub almost 6 years and I tapered to such a small dose that I literally had next to no w/d when I jumped off. I went around and around with those possibly alternatives, but it all came back to just having patience. Sub's long half life makes it a doable med to taper off of, aside from the pain of cutting small doses. I'm not saying that there are no shortcuts, but the shortcuts may be not worth it for many reasons. It can really stink to taper, especially if you try to go too fast. I still think it's the best way, and there's no absolute deadline, so it's flexible and safer. Your body needs time to adjust as you drop down on your Sub. Not convinced there is any way around that.

laddertipper



@ladderstripper am not completely doubting your Suboxone experience getting off but I have to admit am a bit skeptical..To claim you had no withdrawals after 6 years use is impossible for most to grasp. Are you on any opiates now? I was on sub for couple of years and did a reasonable wean yet suffered withdrawals. Perhaps I did not do a proper wean? I do not believe so even though I could have gone more slower but the fact I suffered for half a year tells me it would not have made a big difference had I done a more slower taper because surely by 6 months one should feel decent?

I have met many people on forums who claimed to gett off suboxone except they have not. Am not inclining anybody here but I have met people who are indenial, pretend to be off suboxone with relative ease and simply just lie. Maybe they want to make themselvess feel good or have ulterior motives? in my humble opinion its impossible not to feel withdrawals after 6 year sub use, even with a slow taper you still feel withdrawals because the half life is very long and your still adding more sub in yourself..Everybody I know who has been on suboxone for couple of years let alone 6 years struggles to get off. I truly have not see anybody who took sub for over 3 years maintaine being clean. Maybe you are unique? maybe you will get paws later? who knows but I am truly skeptical. I may plan to do Ibogaine myself because being on sub for this long will be very hard for anyone to get off.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:04 pm 
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Curious_Gia wrote:
@ladderstripper am not completely doubting your Suboxone experience getting off but I have to admit am a bit skeptical..To claim you had no withdrawals after 6 years use is impossible for most to grasp. Are you on any opiates now? I was on sub for couple of years and did a reasonable wean yet suffered withdrawals. Perhaps I did not do a proper wean? I do not believe so even though I could have gone more slower but the fact I suffered for half a year tells me it would not have made a big difference had I done a more slower taper because surely by 6 months one should feel decent?

I have met many people on forums who claimed to gett off suboxone except they have not. Am not inclining anybody here but I have met people who are indenial, pretend to be off suboxone with relative ease and simply just lie. Maybe they want to make themselvess feel good or have ulterior motives? in my humble opinion its impossible not to feel withdrawals after 6 year sub use, even with a slow taper you still feel withdrawals because the half life is very long and your still adding more sub in yourself..Everybody I know who has been on suboxone for couple of years let alone 6 years struggles to get off. I truly have not see anybody who took sub for over 3 years maintaine being clean. Maybe you are unique? maybe you will get paws later? who knows but I am truly skeptical. I may plan to do Ibogaine myself because being on sub for this long will be very hard for anyone to get off.


I'd advise you re-read her post. Laddertipper said she had 'next to no withdrawals' when she finally jumped off. Nowhere did she say her taper had no withdrawals. Here is a link to her taper thread where you can do some more research:

Laddertipper's taper thread

When a person does a very low and slow taper down to the sub 0.2mg levels, most of the withdrawals have already been felt before they actually jump off. By tapering, a person can create a very drawn out, mild withdrawal process that's mostly been endured before stopping treatment completely.

You also need to acknowledge how idiosyncratic buprenorphine withdrawal can be. Unlike the full agonists, buprenorphine withdrawal is quite unpredictable, and varies a lot from person to person, and episode to episode.

It's really not cool to question someone's honesty with zero evidence or proof, just because their experience was different to your own.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:09 am 
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Thank u, tearj3rker.

Yeah, that was more than a little rude, but I can't say it bugs me on any significant level because I am NOT on any opiates. I take .5 mg of Klonopin 1 time per day and Melatonin @ night. I wish there was some way I could scan myself thru the computer and prove this to you, because then we could bet as much money as you have to lose. I took nearly a full year to taper off Sub from 8 mg, and I jumped at 1/16 mg. in other words, I jumped from 1/32 of a 2-mg film. My taper was not always easy by any means, but it was a whole lot more reasonable to me than spending all that $$ on Waisman or Ibogaine. And I put a whole lot of time and energy and patience into my taper. It was work, but it worked. After going through it, I'd like to be able to pass on to other people that the fear aspect of getting off Sub is unnecessary. It you keep going down, you will get off Sub. Bottom line. It sucks only as much as it sucks. I built it up into something scarier than it was because of the unknowns. I was shocked when I jumped and it was as easy as it was.

I think it's weird that you'd suspect I'd be lying. What nutcase would waste their time going on an anonymous forum and claiming to be off Sub when they are not? If you read my taper thread, you'll see I complained plenty while tapering. Why would I lie about not having symptoms now? I think you're projecting.

Best of luck. And good luck with the Ibogaine if that's what you choose.

Laddertipper

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:14 am 
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wow let me just say that u have inspired me from reading how u successfully tapered and got off.....u made me feel that there is hope in getting off when the time is ready.... i FEEL MUCH BETTER AND THANKYOU :) gona just stick it through and worry about getting off when the time comes.... i hope you wont mind if i ask u some questions as i see u could probably help so much in someones recovery... :) anyways got a question for you.... my doc has me doing suboxone 3 times a day at 4mg each so equals 12mg total for the day.. he has me doing it that way cause i have such a fast metabolism and after 6 or 7 hrs i start to feel sick... i tried taking tagament to make the dose last longer that someone had suggested but it made me feel really weird son never again... ive also tried taking the last dose really late and made it hard for me to sleep :(
any suggestions...
and again so proud of ur success story and i wonder why someone wouild lie about jumping off successfully. geees ur helping us out!!!!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:36 am 
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MES999 wrote:
wow let me just say that u have inspired me from reading how u successfully tapered and got off.....u made me feel that there is hope in getting off when the time is ready.... i FEEL MUCH BETTER AND THANKYOU :)


That's really great to hear Mes :D

If you need dosing 3 times a day, you need dosing 3 times a day, I guess. I've had bad metabolism issues too, and am also on 12mg. What caused my problems were certain SNRI medications - Effexor, Pristiq, Cymbalta - and Depakote.

It may be important to look at what medications you are on and see if any might contribute.

My doctor at the time also said that the way our livers metabolise drugs is quite unique from person to person, and genetic tests are often used to see whether someone is an ultrarapid metaboliser.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:41 am 
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thanx tear3jerker, appreciate it....
yea 3 is doing the trick for me durring the day but in the morning it sux till i dose... i am not on any other meds right now so im hopeing there is a solution got doc appt today so hopefully i find an answer...
thx :)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:34 pm 
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my son had the implant, and the rapid detox years ago.. the implant did block him from getting high on opiates.... I think I paid like 1200.00 bucks for the rapid detox and the implant


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:14 am 
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Sloooooow Taper!

I am on year 4 of a slow-ass taper and take 1/6 of a 2mg... so 0.3333333 mg a day or every other day. It is slow but I'm able to work and live and be a person vs all the other stuff and actively using.


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