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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:02 pm 
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Hey Johnny,

I won't speak to what Amy said or meant above because she is completely capable of doing so for herself. But, I do want to tell you my opinion on this argument.

As far as I can tell, the only point in making any distinction between being in recovery on maintenance meds and being in recovery without them is to make the person who is doing it without them feel superior to those who aren't. Honestly JI, I see the point you are trying to make. I don't doubt that it is much harder to stay sober without maintenance drugs. And you have every right to be proud of yourself for doing so. However, stating that your recovery is any better or in some way superior to those who do it with Suboxone only serves to inflate your ego.

After all, why do we strive to get out of active addiction? Is it because we simply want to be drug free for the sake of being able to say we don't take drugs any more? I know that wasn't my motivation.

Here's the thing, Johnny. You have done very well so far, and I hope you continue. But you can't predict the future. This disease can sneak up on you after YEARS of sobriety. Relapse will always be just one phone call away for us as addicts. Either way you go, maintenance or meetings, it's a life time commitment. It's a choice we all have to make for ourselves and what is best for our lives. Nobody should come here claiming that one is better than the other when so much is at stake. My only agenda is to save lives. Anything else is just icing on the cake.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:01 pm 
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Exactly q! U said it perfectly and so did Amy. I absolutely won't argue that going to meetings and step work to stay clean isn't being clean. I don't think anyone on this forum would ever say differently. But that doesn't mean ur way is better than mine. That doesn't mean that ppl on blood pressure meds compared to ppl who don't take it is any less than the ppl who have to have medicine to control it. I tried ur way Johnny. I tried ur way for 6 months. I did rehab, meetings, and step work. I wasn't using, but I was miserable and so depressed that I could've cared less if I lived or died. So just because ur way works for u, doesn't mean everyone in the world is just like u. And don't get me wrong, I admire ppl who can do it ur way, obviously that would be great. I could not do it ur way. So please, don't tell the ppl that are on subs that we aren't clean or ready to be clean....it does seem like ur trying to say ur superior to the ppl who can't make it work ur way. When I was in NA, a friend of mine was 9 yrs clean. He had to have back surgery and they told him that because he had to take the pain meds, he had to start his time all over again. Also I was told certain cough medicine was a relapse. Some of us just choose a different way and have different beliefs. NA says maintenance drugs aren't clean, but I see it different. Everyone has their path and I admire urs just like everyone else. U can absolutely think we aren't clean, that is fine, u just don't have to voice it when u know we call ourselves clean. If I didn't think u had on a cool shirt, I wouldn't say it out loud.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:46 pm 
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JI, you're entitled to your opinion.

We don't debate the definition of "clean and sober" on this forum because it tends to be a divisive issue.

Still, if you would like to start a thread about this subject, you can do so in the Freestyle section of our forum. We are definitely not continuing it here.

So let's get back to the intent and purpose of this thread.

Amy

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:55 am 
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Lol well this thread took a strange turn eh? Went to my counselor today and not going back..Its just a waste of time I started to just almost be completely honest with her about whats going on with all the crap I feel like is eventually gonna cave my head in but I just don't feel right saying it because I am tired of people saying I am not taking my treatment seriously OMG if I hear that again I am gonna LOSE MY SHIT for real I have NEVER felt comfortable talking to shrinks not to mention being honest I feel like such a piece of shit saying how its driving me crazy because I cant do drugs it sounds so shallow and selfish although there is soooo much more to it than just that you know?? Just so hella tired of feeling judged you know ?? I don't even want to tell you guys my whole story and what brought me here to where I am today simply embarrassed I am so hella weak and pathetic..So overall I am surviving still 100% clean (oh besides the strong opiate suboxone there Johnny) so I guess being able to say that is something....hope u guys are doing well ...


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:08 am 
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Always

I totally get what you are saying about the counselor. The first woman i saw was a waste of both our time. She didn't understand how hard i was fighting to just survive another day at the end of my active addiction.


My sub doc gave me a referral to the guy i see now and it's a world of difference. He really gets it when i talk because he is in recovery. No judgement from him that's for sure.

Give yourself more time. There are other support groups on line. SMART has online meetings and the agenda there is WE learn to be responsible for ourselves and the decisions we make. I find the site hard to navigate but you may not. It has a small opiate portion but the overall lessons are great for any addiction.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:43 am 
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Hey always :)

I'm sorry that u are having these problems, it sucks and I believe a lot of us have been exactly where ur at right now. One thing I have always had issues with is seeing counselor's and doctors for addiction and find out they weren't ever addicts. I say that because I don't think they will ever truly understand what we're going through. It would be awesome if all doctors were like Dr J who started this forum. I sit in my meetings at my clinic and even though I love my counselor, sometimes I hear advice and I am thinking.....um I don't think that is what this person is meaning. They sometimes don't get it, and how could they, if ur not an addict how can untruly understand ya know? Unfortunately though that happens a lot. Maybe if u could somehow find a counselor or someone that was an actual addict, but I'm not sure how to do that exactly.

Another thing is I don't want ya to ever be embarrassed or reluctant to tell ur story or issues. We have all done bad things that we aren't proud of. Wow I did things that would raise ur eyebrows and run for the door lol.

I still think maybe ur missing the lifestyle a little bit of when u used. Not the withdrawal or that stuff, but the running around and fast pace of it all. I became instant bored when I first got on subs. It took adjusting to. I know u said u were staying busy working and that's awesome. Are u around other ppl that use? That could cause what ur feeling. And another thing is staying away from things, ppl that trigger u. Things that remind u of being high or using. I had to even stop eating my fav candy I ate when I'd get high. Took me 2 yrs to eat those candies called cow tails again lol.

I sure hope u feel better always, oh and sorry about my post earlier about being clean....I kinda lose my temper over that whole "not being clean issue".

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:02 pm 
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You guys posts made me feel better today so thanks for that..Jenn u really hit it my embarrassment is more about I can't believe I actually miss that lifestyle I mean how the hell could I miss that horrible shit?/ You guys ever talk to someone like a homie or family member and you listen to them and you just wanna shake em or like slap em lol and go WTF are u thinking?? Well that's what I wanna do to myself..2 years ago I was doin what I had always done and just hustling for my money you guys know what I mean..Then a bro of mine from the military called me and told me he had gotten a job in corporate security and that they loved ex military but he knew I smoked weed and what not so he said suck it up for a while and get that shit out of your system because they test and I can get u on...It was such great money and benefits I had to do it..So I quit everything except what I had a prescription for no problem and that's where the pills got OUT OF CONTROL of course ..And I have always HATED the fact that I can't smoke hash or chronic off work but all these hypocritical pricks that decide those laws suck down a gallon of booze at the country club and go launch they Mercedes into oncoming traffic and kill people but by god THATS LEGAL but don't get me started on that lol...So my point is here I am now and I couldn't control the awful opiates and so now I have NOTHING and its all a HELLA LOT to deal with so I feel guilty that I wanna get high on anything its pathetic and I know if I smoke I lose my job and other things are bound to follow so WHY DO I MISS IT right ?? Just gotta figure it out so I can move on


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:33 pm 
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Hey Always,

I totally understand what you are going through. I don't know if everyone goes through that, but I sure did and I know of others who have as well. When I first got on Suboxone I went through an initial honeymoon phase where I was so happy and couldn't believe how much better I felt, yada yada. A couple months in I started feeling angry and depressed. It was like the feeling you get when you lose a friend. Like it or not, drugs were my best friend during those years I was using. I put them over everything else in my life including my kids and my husband. That's really hard to admit but it's the truth. When I started thinking about NEVER using again I got really angry. I was angry at my husband for finding out my secret and forcing me to get help. I was angry at myself because I let it get so out of control. I kept thinking that if I had just been able to use my pills correctly I could have stayed on them forever and been perfectly happy. LOL...it's such a joke, but I really did think it. I think that when you finally get away from the roller coaster of addiction and get stable you start to romanticize the whole experience. Sure, you remember the bad stuff, but it starts to fade in comparison to the memories of feeling good and being the life of the party while you were using. You have to really try hard to remember the whole experience for what it really was. The bad times always outweighed the good ones. And no matter how many pills I had, it was never enough. Someone told me one time that there is a grieving process that most of us go through when we are newly sober. I wish I could tell you exactly what to do to get passed it, but there is no magic to it. It just takes time, and some effort on your part to keep your mind focused on the truth. Eventually that feeling goes away and you will feel better. I guess there are probably stages to work through just like they tell you when you lose someone close to you.

I totally get that you don't want to share everything here on the forum. I don't share everything about myself on the main forum either. But, I do have a few close friends here that I communicate with through PM and phone calls that I do share more intimate details with and I have found that to be very important to my recovery. It takes time to build enough trust in new friends to open up like that, but it is so nice to be able to talk openly with a few people who really get it. No fear of being judged and knowing that they really understand what you are going through.

I don't blame you for not opening up to your counselor either. I know how that feels too. It's really hard for me to go in to an office and be transparent with people. I think in order to do that you have to find a counselor that you feel comfortable with and build that trust first. If you find the right person you might change your mind. That being said, I understand where you are now and I get that you aren't there yet. It's okay to take these things slowly, but I really hope you don't give up on the idea completely.

I just want you to know that we don't think you are a bad person for feeling the things that you do. It's all completely normal and most of us have probably felt the same things. Just have faith that you will get through it in time.

I'm glad you felt better after reading those posts today. I'm sorry for participating in the commotion, hopefully we won't have any more distractions on your thread. :P

I hope you have a great day today. You deserve to have one of those every now and then!

Q

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:48 pm 
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One of the mods that's no longer here, Amber, helped me out a lot in this area. She craved the lifestyle too after she went on sub. Even while she was so relieved to be in recovery, she would start thinking about what she was missing. She taught herself something though. Every time she started craving any part of using, she would force herself to think it through to its logical end. She wouldn't allow herself to remember the "good" parts without also remembering the things she did that she was very ashamed of. The wreckage that her life became.

You talk about feeling ashamed of your actions, enough that you really don't even want to share them with us. (First, let me say that JennJenn is exactly right! We all have things that we are ashamed of. It goes hand in hand with addiction.) Use your shame! Make it work for you! Don't let yourself remember the good stuff without thinking about the actions that embarrass you, that shame you. Use your remorse as a tool in your recovery!

You've received awesome advice from Tiki and JennJenn and others. Find a different therapist. Maybe request a therapist who has personal experience with addiction. Maybe your current counselor fears your talk of missing the lifestyle because they're just afraid of relapse for you. It sounds like the counselor wants you to ignore those thoughts, not realizing that talking about them is completely necessary for you right now. At least you know you have an outlet here to do that with people who understand.

I'm also going to suggest that you find a new outlet for your time. The best thing you can do to get your mind off cravings is to have something else to look forward to. I'm a big fan of volunteering. You're a veteran, right? There must be opportunities to help your fellow vets in your area.

You haven't told us a lot about your life, and I don't mean to be nosy, but is it possible that you have issues with PTSD from your time in the military? I don't know if you were in active combat or not. But if you have unresolved problems in that area it is necessary that you address those professionally. There are a ton of our veterans who end up addicts because they're masking other problems. I wouldn't be surprised if there are specific support groups available through the VA.

Don't give up on counselors just because your first one is a tool! And remember that you have a support system here. We care about you!

Amy

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:18 pm 
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First let me say i feel so so hella better to know u guys get it.. i really was beginning to think nobody understood at all i mean really that is a huge load off ...And yah unfortunately i was in active combat way more than i care to mention and was treated and still get treatment for ptsd today...and thats kinda my point the counselors all wanna focus on that everytime and blah blah blah...so i will seek out help from a addiction therapist and hope they have had some experience with personal addiction..


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:35 pm 
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Oh also amy yah there are specific groups at the VA for us but believe me I have some very personal reasons i dont like and or go anywhere close to the VA..and yah i have said before on here that my drug use got 10 times worse when i got home because you could literally block out so much of that stuff with some good drugs ...The thing is when u go into a counseling session and believe me some of the things from that hell come up in conversation when it was such a big traumatic thing it almost covers up why i am really there and that is for addiction not to go over and over and over the horrible things i did in combat ..so this time i will do my best to not even mention Afghanistan or iraq and maybe we can get to the issue at hand and i can get something out of it...that is if i ever go back ...Still clean week 9


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:27 am 
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There's no way I can understand what you went through when you were active in the military. I'm certainly not asking for you to open up about it on this forum. I'm not even asking you to talk about it in any kind of therapy. But I'm pretty sure that you can't subdivide PTSD and lingering trauma from your addiction. Just because you've faced it before doesn't mean that you won't need to go there again.

If you want nothing to do with the VA or its programs that's fine, but I still think you need to find a new way to spend your time. If you're not helping veterans or the like, how about volunteering at an animal shelter or a food kitchen. Volunteering is good because it helps us keep our minds off of our own misery and also reminds us that we aren't the only ones in bad circumstances.

I'm glad you're feeling better! I doubt there's much about addiction that we haven't heard here and you will always find someone who can understand where you're coming from. :)

Amy

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:25 pm 
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Thanks Amy. And believe me i have images burnt into my head that keep me grateful for what i have ...The issue is i had to make a choice when i took this job and that was i would rather have money and health insurance or do dope and Continue risking everything..So i chose to quit those type drugs but i had legal prescriptions for benzos and 3 different opiates and so i quit the other things cold turkey no help and i have been clean from meth,hash,coke,chronic and others and kept clean from those ever since i took this job...So see i still had a way to get hella high and keep my job..so then my life goes into a spiral much worse on opiates than any other drugs could have done to me well other than maybe meth its hella bad as well and by the way that proves how evil an opiate addiction is because look how easy i sat all those other drugs down but the opiates we all know how hard they are to get away from...So i guess thats what it boils down to is i had to give up that security blanket so to speak and now for the rest of my life i have nothing and feel like so empty and pathetic and like i said before so ashamed that i am missing that rush ..But the more i read and talk to u guys i see alot of people do feel like that early on ..So it is what it is right ? I just really want to hear more of u guys say that will eventually fade away and i will learn to find some happiness in sobriety cuz right now i ain't feeling it


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:11 am 
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Yo thats not good if its so bad that you're getting suicidal. You need to talk to your doc asap. Probably a dose adjustment. You may be a fast matabolizer like me. I experienced the same thing when I just started suboxone and ran out I got really bad and suicidal and could barely think straight. It was like PAWS. Full on anxiety attack, mind racing,extreme depression, you name it I experienced it. I had never experienced that before either. Bit I fixed my dose with my doctor. Cut off all my fake friends and I've been great since. Suboxone literally saved my life and got me back to my original safe. Just hang in there. You'll be straight.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:01 am 
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Lol no bro i haven't been suicidal in months i hope what i wrote didn't come off like that i simply miss my dope and pills and feel hella depressed but certainly not suicidal,,,and i am more than used to the depression simply because it comes and goes quite often...


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:38 am 
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Always

I get what you are saying i think. I knew i was going to end up dead or worse a vegetable if i kept using and STILL it took almost a year for me to get on sub. I didn't want to give up opiates. I would be driving and seeing double or almost fall asleep at a stop light. Was so high at work I am surprised i still have a job. When i think back there were so many times i could have died. Then there is the mess my life became. You get the idea.


So finally i find a sub doctor i feel is "good" but he doesn't have an opening. We work in the same building so he knew who i was and kept in touch until he had an opening. He would talk to me everyday & make sure i didn't OD or give up.

I feel i had a really hard transition. I didn't feel good, was sick and hurt (Dr thought i was in PW"S) and 5 days after starting sub i end up in urgent care with a kidney stone!

Back on track....The first month on sub I wanted to stop and get high and that made me feel so hopeless. I cried everyday, it was like i broke up with someone or someone died. I finally had to stop thinking "i can never get high again" . Those feeling did stop after I stopped messing around with my dose and got stable but it was probably close to 2 months.

IMO as you get used to the sub those thought will fade and you will feel better overall. Hang in there always!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:33 am 
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I really do hope these feelings fade one day..Its such a damn shame to feel so helpless..I do however feel a little better each day but i just have got to find something else to replace that part of my life and its a damn big hole to fill...I have at least started playing poker again and that was something i let go when i was so high i would have lost my ass walking into a casino so high i could barely hold my head up but the good thing is i can at least figure my percentages much quicker at the table lol...so now its just a matter of keeping busy


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:16 am 
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Always

Please just trust and believe me, that void does get filled with healthy things in time. You have to put some work into it as you already have by playing poker again. I told myself to just put one foot in front of the other and promised myself i would NOT use for 3 months. As i have said here many times, i had a hard transition from opiates to sub but I hung in with the help of this forum and am so glad i did.

With the kidney stone my first thought was "damn, i could have gotten a script"...the doctor offered and i said no. Talk about a test of my will LOL

I stayed close to this forum and it helped.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:21 pm 
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Oh btw im so tired from working i dont even remember if i told you guys i FINALLY GOT OFF MY WEEKLY VISITS AND GOT PUT ON MONTHLY WOOOOHOOOOO sorry just a little excited about that...it was 9 long weeks but now no more 100.00 a week VISITS..and it was really strange to walk out of the pharmacy with a bottle of sub so big lol i even asked the pharmacy are u sure this is right ?lol oh yah and TIKI mention that kidney stone are u tellin me u let t that kidney stone pass with no narcotics??? Cuz if so u hella tougher than me i have had 2 and those little bastards aint no joke


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:12 pm 
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Hey Always,
Well welcome to the once a month club!! It does save on money thats for sure. Where i go we had to do a bi weekly for another 8 months till we hit a year clean!! Lots of hoopes to jump though at our clinic. But thats ok. A year of group therapy was good for me a d being around other addicts in the same boat was a good thing.
This helped with all tbe changes in attitudes that sre needed to succeed in this .
Peer support is important to me. Maybe look into some of it.Meetings arent for everyone but there are good things to learn there.
And yes, a months worth of Suboxone in ones hands blew my mind too. I was careful Not to drift over my dose.
Watch out for that. It is easy to do on a bad day..uno?..
Saying busy with work,having hobbies, these things can work in life to keep you moving in the right direction.
Your doing great man...keep a postin!!

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