It is currently Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:26 am



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: why the anger
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:39 am 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:10 pm
Posts: 31
Location: Miami, Florida
Matt-
If suboxone works for you that is great.
Someone asked a question what would I have done If sub was not there. Read my post under a plea for help- because I am in deep deep deep with this med, and I am scared.
If it had not been available I probably would have lost my job and gone into some treatment. Maybe lost my wife as well.

3 years later, after trying to stop several times. I have had tonnes of health issues, some related to sub, some indirectly, and some that have nothing to do with it. Because I could not stop, and was feeling so tired and spent and etc etc- I left a Government Job of 13 yrs as an Agriculture Specialist with US CBP. I ended up initiatinng a divorce because my libido was zero, I was heartbroken at watching my wife see me uninterested in almost everything. Going from being very sexual, to zero. So, sadly that has been over for about 6 months. She is signing the papers in France.
As far as Doctors and conflicts? To see how the profit motive works- it is tricky. Doctors get patients through suboxone.
But it is not immense the profit motive- other than ...getting more patients that have to come back as regularly as they choose. Some may be cool and let you go with refils like mine, some are very strict and make quite a bit for the "med check appts". But that is not where the profit motive lies- it lies in how the company operates. They profit by getting doctors on board and telling them about this novel drug and all its benefits. They have them take a test that does not warn them about the dangers of long term use.
Now if you do not believe me about there being a huge motive to market this drug- I mentioned in a post- I had tried to come off after being on for 3.5 years. I lasted 2 months. I assumed my doc would not put me back on. I was fed up with the prolonged withdrawal. I was starting to crave- like I never have in my whole life. I found a doctor here in Miami- it took about 30 minutes. Strangely when I get to her office- she is not a psychiatrist, nor is she an addiction doctor, or even a generalist. She is a pediatrician. ....
She had several of the mothers of her children patients that had had problems with pain medication. She had heard about suboxone. Called, and rep came, and she took the class, and voila.
I was testing the waters, expecting a bunch of questions, and when I saw that she was very open, I flat out told her what was gong on. She wrote me a prescription for 8mg twice daily..
I had been on between 4-6 mg for the most part before I had stopped prior to going off. Imagine my surprise.
I walked out of the office with this huge script. I will provide her name- it is on my bottle.
Also, as far as profit motive and Doctors- Do you think there is much profit in Methadone? No, on top of that it is generic.
But there are Methadone docs, and usually they do not make a ton of money, but they are happy to get more clients.
I ended up telling my shrink that I had gone back on, on my own. I told him that I would rather work with him than work with a person I do not know that is so free to prescribe. He agreed and I settled down on 8 mg/day.
Look under my post under the "Stopping Sub" topic, and "Plea for help" post. You will see my story.
I have not come back to this site, in a while. I had signed up a while back and saw that the site basically promoted use, and had v little info on how to get off so I did not come back. I came back, hoping that the people here had some information on a good taper schedule. That I would get support in wanting to get off because I PERSONALLY feel lousy on this med.
But I am not against Suboxone. Please read carefully I AM OPEN MINDED ABOUT SUBOXONE. IT has its place in titration for people that want to be completely clean off of opiates. It has its place as a maintenance med for people that have trouble starying clean using AA or NA only, and It has its place for those that do not even have the thought of "recovery" in there mind but do not want to die from an OD or HIV from using needles etc. Or people that are chronic pain killer abusers that cannot stop etc. Yes it has its place.
But what about those who do not fall into these categories and find themselves on this med not having been made aware of the consequences of long term use. Not knowing that it is equal to 30mg of Methadone. that the lowest dose is 2mg which is a huge quantity. That the company does not supply tapering doses, and - from what I have read here- you have to be your own chemist and prepare solutions of doses at the microgram level. Does that sound like a company that wants to keep an open mind. That is use and prescribe when appropriate. Ways out for people that want to stop without them having to devise wierd garage chemistry ways of tapering? Just that alone. It is wierd. Im wondering at this point- because I feel like hell- that methadone might not be better and to taper using methadone. At least there is a tapering plan available.
So METHADONE has a tapering plan available. Of all the drugs for maintenance- Methadone. Suboxone does not- despite the microgram dosage of Bupinorphine being available for pain in the UK. It does exist at (200 or 250 mcg).

The company has brought this anger upon itself by acting like the Bush Administration and not being transparent.
It obscures any info on all the problems associated with this med. There are LESS side effects mentioned with this med than there is for Zoloft! Does anyone find that strange.
If the company came clean, and acknowledged that there were cases where the patients were starting to feel worse or had bad side effects, made this clear - in a DOCTORS office setting- (This is not supposed to be a shady Methadone Clinic setting in which this is prescribed). Then also offer a tapering program. They can do it, they have the resources, they already have the Microgram doses of Bupinorphine available in the UK, and just have to mix naloxone to make Micro doses of Suboxone.
I am sorry, but that I think is the root of peoples frustration.

Please read my post under a PLEA for help under stropping suboxone. I came here for help. I am hope I will get it.
I hope someone will provide me with a tapering schedule that works - even if I have to resort to garage chemistry making formulations of microgram dosages of Suboxone. I dont care if Ricketts will not supply the micrograms- I want off of this med. I want to have shot at it. So I am pleading for help on this site.

_________________
Think before


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 11:36 am 
You've gotten a reply from me on your other thread....please read it.
Do you realize that while you're in a way saying that Suboxone is fine, in another way you're blaming the drug for everything that is wrong in your life? Do you realize how ridiculous that is? There are many, many, many medications that cause sexual dysfunction. If everyone who's had prostate problems, depression or anxiety, heart trouble and the like who needed medications for such problems and had sexual dysfunction, got a divorce because of it.......something would be very very wrong with that picture. Would it not?
As I said in your other thread, there is absolutely no reason to believe that bupe causes any long-term effects that any other opiate wouldn't cause if used long-term. That just makes no sense. I agree with you, though. I wish there were smaller doses available for tapering. I think there eventually probably will be. But until then, it isn't impossible to taper. Many have done it and I am doing it now.
I'm not even going to dignify the comments about bupe being prescribed for the profits of the doctors only. It's been talked about enough and it's just about ridiculous. Subutex is, by the way, available now in generic. If you have no history of IV drug use and are stable on your meds, many docs have been willing to switch their patients over to save them some money on their Rx.
You're obviously very troubled right now and you won't find anyone here who doesn't feel bad for you. There is a ton of information already here that can help you. Yes.....most of us are 'pro' Suboxone. No, take that back, we are pro RECOVERY and we feel that bupe goes a long way in helping us recover. The drug is not to blame for all our problems and for many of us, it has allowed us to break the cycle of active addiction. Apparently it has for you. Otherwise, why would you go back on it after stopping it more than once? Again, I'm sorry you're unhappy. But you and only you can accomplish your goal of getting off this medication and living your life the way you want to. There is no way to get a free pass from opiate addiction. If you're not content with replacement therapy, then taper off and try the abstinence route again. Weaning off is NOT impossible. You just have to be determined and patient. You have to be willing to quit complaining and focusing on every twinge of w/d you may feel and get it done. Now staying off drugs.....that's another story altogether. Obviously, you know that. I hope you're able to get a good program in place and reach your goals. We're trying to help. All who have already posted on this forum have already helped you albeit indirectly. Reach out and take it........or leave it. It's up to you. But please take the negativity and unsubstantiated claims about the terrible long-term consequences of buprenorphine to another forum. It doesn't belong here. If you want to talk about what your experiences have been.....fine, but avoid all-encompassing statements like "dangers of long-term use" and talk about Reckitt being involved in some kind of conspiracy. It serves no purpose and brings confusion to people's minds....not necessary.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 11:46 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm
Posts: 4933
Location: Leesburg, FL
Thanks, setmefree, I couldn't have said it better myself.

gaulois, have you checked out the thread about the liquid taper method? I have not tapered (nor do I plan to anytime soon), so I can't personally attest to its attributes, but many people here have had great success tapering with that method, with little to no hellish misery. Please keep an open mind. I know you're in a really bad place right now, and I'm sorry for that - truly I am. I've been through major depression and I know how hopeless one can feel. I would encourage you to open up completely with your therapist and maybe s/he can help you get to the bottom of it.

I hope you get to feeling better soon. Take care.

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:16 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:14 am
Posts: 63
gaulois,
I read your post in a different discussion board I think.
Anyway, I just wanted you to know that I understand where your coming from. Possibly better than many others because I suffer from the same problems that you do. I'm 35, I've been on suboxone for 18 months and while I don't want to go into too much detail, I have severe depression which is caused from my suboxone, significant weight gain and I also have other side effects, like the one you mentioned about swimming, SAME HERE, I loved to swim, have a $30,000 pool I bought and haven't used since I started suboxone because I can't handle the water, it bothers my skin, I'm always cold with chills and goose bumps, shaving my legs in the shower is an issue also because of the goosebumps, they never go away. I have no enthusiasm for life, none whatsoever. Like you said, I don't want to die I just don't care if I live. I hate living like this. I'm watching my family and my life fall apart around me and I lack the enthusiasm to do anything about it. It's horrible, and I don't think a single person on this forum can understand it, unless your experiencing it. I'm on the verge of losing everything since I began suboxone. So many people are too focused on trying to defend it sometimes they forget it's a very very strong drug and if you can maintain your recovery then you should by all means try to get off this drug, especially when it's having a very negative effect on your life. I am trying like hell right now to get off of it, I'm considering jumping at 4 mgs, but I'm scared to death. I've been on here a lot mentioning it. I guess I keep hoping someone will say, NO it's going to be easy,lol NOT.
I guess my point is, I just want you to know your not alone. I understand. I don't have any medical explanation for why this is happening and I don't know why your quit didn't work I sure hope you can find a way to get out of your depression. I've tried all the anti-depressants too. I've heard people say that when they lower their dose they began to feel some original feelings, so I'm hoping that as I get lower that will happen, idk. I'm either going to drop to two mgs tomorrow or I'm throwing in the towel and I'm not doing them ever again. We'll see. ha ha


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:20 am 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 10:38 pm
Posts: 181
Location: Cleveland suburb
Broken, I just read your post and sums up my experience with methadone word for word (everything but owning a 30,000 dollar pool, my wife wants one but my son and I turned our big backyard into a golf course, 30 * 30 putting green, sand traps, tee box, you name it. That's what happens when your a female living with to males, she gets out voted everytime). I have defended methadone a few times on this forum for that reason. Seems most people who succeed on suboxone are methadone bashers. I've met some who have your same reaction to suboxone but do very well on methadone. My case was opposite, like I said before methadone made me a zombie while suboxone has been great for me. Maybe you body is one of those that would react the other way around. Is this making sense, it's not in my head as I write it. May e it's something to consider or atleast talk to your doctor about. Let us know how you resolve this, I'm sure it can help many others who don't react well to sub. Good luck.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Check the Date!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:38 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:36 pm
Posts: 879
Location: Wisconsin
Just as a courtesy and a heads up, I've been seeing more and more old posts being brought back up and responded to. Beautifullybroken, the post that you commented about is nearly three months old. Gaulois, the author, is long gone having not logged in here since mid-May.

Sometimes these old posts are relevant and deserve to be bumped up but when I see people reaching out and responding to someone that has not been here for many months I can only assume they didn't realize how old the post was.

Readers may want to check the date of the post before taking time to respond to someone who in all likelihood will never ever see their words. And just to be clear, there is nothing wrong with commenting on an old post. I'm just not sure that everyone is understanding that the post they are commenting on was left several months ago - not several hours or several days ago.

Hope that helps!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:17 am 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 10:38 pm
Posts: 181
Location: Cleveland suburb
Old post or not, it might be helping someone looking through topics to find thier specific question or concern. I lurked around for 12 months, trying to find answers to my questions by looking at old topics. While the person creating the topic is long gone, someone else might get some helpful advice.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:23 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:36 pm
Posts: 879
Location: Wisconsin
I totally, completely, 100% agree with you. My point was not that old posts should not be brought up. Not at all. My point was, leaving messages specifically for or to someone who is long gone may not be worth the time - which is what I have seen happen several times now, along with some "urgent" type responses going out to posts that were a year old. Beyond that, however, you may very well be able to get a lot out of an old post - just be aware of the date as comments are made - especially if they are directed at someone who is no longer around.

That's all.

(by the say Smoothy, this really did not apply to you as your comments were related to a very recent post. Other people have been more distant)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:41 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:14 am
Posts: 63
I noticed the op'er has not logged in for some time, that doesn't mean they aren't here, it just means they aren't logging in.

I agree with smoothy. In fact I just happened across this post by chance and I was so very happy that I had because nobody else has ever before mentioned the problems with water and not being able to swim. Plus, three months isn't that old. I mean, if it were from 2009 I wouldn't have responded. For someone in her situation she will probably be back looking for help. Personally, and I hope I'm not attacked for saying this but I read through her other posts and I don't think she got much validation for the way she was feeling and experiencing her negative suboxone side effects. I really wanted to validate it because like I said, I totally relate to it. It wasn't urgent, I knew she wasn't around daily.


Smoothy- It's interesting to me your reaction to methadone vs suboxone, I wonder if anyone else has experienced that.
At the moment, I'm just relieved to be putting it behind me, one day at a time. THANKS


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject: the Big Brother thing
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:31 pm 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 3:58 am
Posts: 38
I am a fan of conspiracy theories myself. And of course pharmaceutical companies are out for blood when it comes to profits! What else is new... Besides, its not the "pushing" of the latest and greatest I'm concerned about (Bupe is nothing, have you heard about Avandia? People actually died from side-effects...). Buprenorphine is indeed a revolutionary substance and it works wonders for lots and lots of people, giving them their lives back, saving careers and families... and now they even have a separate "window" (or whatever) for buprenorphine on quickie drug-tests, so that a person on maintenance won't test positive for illicit drugs and won't have his or her privacy invaded and be judged because of a vague result. So yeah, it's only fair that R&B would want to make a buck off this wonderdrug :)

There's other reasons to be infuriated with them though. For refusing to share the wealth with Big Pharma companies and provoking years of bad-mouthing and anti-Bupe propaganda (don't mess with the big guys). Bupe was discovered in the mid-60s, patented in early 80s as a pain medicine, but how come only in 2006 when the drug was finally approved for opiate dependency treatment? Politics, that's how. And if you have read any of Dr. Junig's blogs, you would now that up till now some much respected doctors frown upon Buprenorphine replacement therapy (and even go 'hisss" when someone tries to talk about it at a conference). I'm not talking about all the misplaced anger going on in cyberspace. Ri-freaking-diculous if you ask me.

But let's not get too emotional here. Let's stick to the facts.

Fact no.1 - bupe IS an opiate drug. It works on the same receptors as morphine, heroin and codeine. How exactly it works is another question, for another topic. But scientifically speaking, it is an opiate.
Fact no.2 - opiates cause withdrawal symptoms. Short-acting ones cause acute symptoms that last for a short time, and long-acting cause moderate symptoms that seem to go on forever. What's the lesser of two evils here? Which takes us to par.3, aka
3. the PAWS. The dreaded PAWS that hit you precisely when you start to believe the worst is over. And of course, with prolonged discomfort of Bupe withdrawal it just seems like the initial wd is never gonna end. But the fact is that PAWs will be there no matter what you use. It depends solely on HOW LONG you have been using opiates in general. It's funny how some people expect to be all cheery and energetic one week after quitting 10 years of opiates cold turkey :) it's simple - the longer your brain has been "asleep", the longer it will take him to learn how to make its own "feel-good stuff" again.

And then the question - WHY? Why is it considered necessary to be CLEAN from everything? It goes something like this - Addicts cannot control their use when it comes to their DOC. -> having ANY amount of DOC(or it's close relative) in addict's system is not recovery, therefore - maintenance is a crotch, and not a recovery tool. Well, maybe this schematic works for alcohol or fast-acting full-agonist opiates (I personally wouldn't risk it to go on Vics or Oxys even if doctors prescribe them to me), - but what's more important, I think, is the reduction of FUTURE risk of a possible relapse. Being 100% clean has zero insurance. You are up against your own pleasure center - that thing that's been guiding our evolution, our behaviors, our choice of food, mates, careers, favorite movies and romantic love... that thing that makes us ourselves. And you bet your life on something that is fickle and unstable that is your willpower, - and you don't have to choose "heads or tails" only once, you will have to do it repeatedly, every minute of every day for the rest of your life! For those of you familiar with statistics - what's the probability of flipping a coin and getting the same result 5 times in a row? 10 times? 356 times a year every year?... Exactly...

So it's not the length of withdrawal that should be of much concern, IMO. It's the level of _protection_ that Bupe gives us against future relapses that makes it so valuable. I know I'm weak and undisciplined. I know that every time my inner junkie rears its ugly little head in a fight against my willpower I'm gonna lose. Some people are much stronger than me, I'm sure - but even a strongest person can be vulnerable at times. And that thing is waiting, ready to sprout any second we let down our guard. To play russian roulette with five bullets and one empty chamber? thanks but no thanks...

And yeah, when those uppity non-addicts give me attitude about "being on drugs" while in recovery, I just tell them that Bupe mostly blocks my brain from getting high, and it only mimics a body's natural level of hormones, which every sober person has, but opiophiles have not, due to years of drug use, - and yes its not completely true, but it helps to get them off my back and is much less exhausting than trying to explain full vs. partial agonism of mu receptors to someone who doesn't know the difference between smoking pot and mainlining heroin. Hehe.

So it all boils down to this - it is YOUR life, and it's not your main objective to be a hero or to follow someone elses guidelines of a good and sober life. Each and every day, with every decision that you make, you only have to ask yourself is that decision is in the right direction to the _better quality of your life_ as YOU experience it, as YOU understand a good life is supposed to be. Addicts are "bad" not because they have some evil chemicals in their blood, they're "bad" because they hurt and annoy a lot of people while active4ly using. So that's pretty much all I have to say.

best of luck to all

_________________
"If I knew it was harmless, I would have killed it myself." (c)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Whoopsie...
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:39 pm 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 3:58 am
Posts: 38
little typo here... "crutch" instead of "crotch" is what I meant, naturally. But still hella funny :) :) :)
Sometimes my fingers work faster than my brain...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:56 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:11 am
Posts: 427
Location: Fishers, Indiana
Lol I appreciate the laugh mathAn and I was shocked by how both of us have had essentially the same realization from what it sounds like to me. I absoutely recognize that Suboxone or perhaps I should get into the habit of saying HDB maintenance (high dose buprenorphine) is not going to work for everyone but given my current options it still seems to be the best for me. I have to say that:

"Being 100% clean has zero insurance. You are up against your own pleasure center - that thing that's been guiding our evolution, our behaviors, our choice of food, mates, careers, favorite movies and romantic love... that thing that makes us ourselves. And you bet your life on something that is fickle and unstable that is your willpower, - and you don't have to choose "heads or tails" only once, you will have to do it repeatedly, every minute of every day for the rest of your life! For those of you familiar with statistics - what's the probability of flipping a coin and getting the same result 5 times in a row? 10 times? 356 times a year every year?... Exactly..."

really did a great job of communicating what I was really trying to say the other night when I was trying to explain my reasoning for staying on maintenance more longterm or perhaps indefinately even though I'm currently only 24. To boil it down I guess I've scared myself so many times by how quickly my inner addict can take over and wrestle control out of the hands of my more rational pre addict self. And well it's just so comforting knowing that I really don't have to always be worrying about if I'm going to hurt my loved ones or myself on a daily basis or who I'm going to steal from to not be sick anymore.

Anyways thanks for your feedback mathAn and I look forward to reading more posts from you I finally do have one last thing to wrap up with though, and that's I couldn't agree more about how difficult it can be to explain Suboxone / HDB to the uneducated or the unwilling but it's important to know how to point out the many problems in the argument about us "replacing one drug for another". If replacing one drug for another keeps me alive I'm all for it. It just seems like so many people either don't know of or don't care about the 10's of thousands of our still suffering fellow opiate addicts who die annually as a direct result of their disease......... Opiate addiction kills plain and simple and so my goal here and in my daily life has become to spread more awareness with those around me who are either still uneducated or unwilling to see the disease for what it truly is: a potentially fatal condition

_________________
"If you're going through hell, ....keep going!"
-Winston Churchill


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group