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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:11 am 
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I got on sub in 2005. My doctor told me it was a miracle drug, I could stay on it as long as I want, and when I want to get off I would have very little withdrawal. He was right initially. For 2 years sub worked wonderfully. Then almost overnight it turned on me. From that point on it has slowly gotten worse. I am now suicidally depressed, cannot stay awake, and CANNOT GET OFF THE SUBS. I have tried to quit and sub withdrawal makes oxycontin withdrawal feel like a walk in the park. I WAS LIED TO. There was no independent research that went into this drug. We are guinea pigs. I may very well kill myself because of this drug. Does this warrant being mad at my sub doctor?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:22 am 
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Of course you can be angry with your suboxone doctor. And I'm sorry you're having a hard time getting off of it. Have you tried tapering? Maybe you can tell us how you've gone about it thus far and perhaps we can help you out. Suboxone is an excellent tool, but it isn't a cure for addiction. And we were already addicted when we got on suboxone, so we really already had the withdrawals coming to us, right? At least that's the way I look at it. Plus it was practically impossible to taper off our DOC, but it is possible to taper off suboxone.

Anyway, if you don't mind, could you tell us how you're taking your sub and your sub dosing history and we'll try to help you out with the best way(s) to taper down. If done slowly with very small dose drops and get very low there should be much less discomfort from both acute and post-acute withdrawals.

We're here to support you through this. And I surely don't blame you for being angry at your doctor for misleading you. You're certainly not the only one. Unfortunately, doctors are under-educated when it comes to suboxone - especially with regard to how to taper a patient off.

Let's see if we can't help you out a little bit.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:18 pm 
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BupHasMe wrote:
I got on sub in 2005. My doctor told me it was a miracle drug, I could stay on it as long as I want, and when I want to get off I would have very little withdrawal. He was right initially. For 2 years sub worked wonderfully. Then almost overnight it turned on me. From that point on it has slowly gotten worse. I am now suicidally depressed, cannot stay awake, and CANNOT GET OFF THE SUBS. I have tried to quit and sub withdrawal makes oxycontin withdrawal feel like a walk in the park. I WAS LIED TO. There was no independent research that went into this drug. We are guinea pigs. I may very well kill myself because of this drug. Does this warrant being mad at my sub doctor?


Wow, do I ever feel you! I got on Sub in '05 too and was absolutely mislead in the same ways. It pissed me off for a long time that my doc would never have to be accountable for all the statements he made and represented as fact. This is just the way it is, though. We have to be very careful and learn from this. We have to learn to always look out for ourselves, investigate whatever we put in our bodies, etc. Sub turned on me as well, and it was somewhere around the second year mark, although I really can't be sure because I kept buying into the notion that Sub couldn't cause the lack of interest in life that was plaguing me.

I'd like to know more about your story. I was on 32 mg for a long time, but at this point, even though I've been on so damn long, I do think it's possible to get off. It takes a whole lot of patience and determination, but I'm down to under .5 mg/day. It's not over yet, but I'm a lot closer AND I feel way better, as far as being so disinterested and depressed goes. I feel WAY better, not just a little better. There is hope! I can't wait until I'm completely off, so I can say that I did it, after nearly six years on Sub, so anyone can do it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:06 am 
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Buphasme. its not as bad as it looks". gee's you guy's i only been on for about 14 months". and i feel the same. we all could have been very dead 6 years ago, if it was not for treatment . i think that we need to keep reminding are self's of that?
if we were all so strong like hatmaker, we would not have this program. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:05 pm 
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I remember how I felt when I fully came to understand how hard it is going to be to get off of Sub. I can understand the anger, the despair, and the sense of betrayal.
But now that I have lived with this realization for a while, I know that for ME, if I hadn't gone on Subs when I did, my addiction would have continued to progress and I still would have withdrawals to go through, but with more damage done to my life in the interim. Addiction sucks, and quite frankly, most of the treatments for it suck, too. That is the reality of the situation. Now we just have to decide where we go from here. As long as we're still breathing, there's hope.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:45 pm 
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Yo check this thread man i just started it!

http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4393


Anyways I agree with you 100% that we are Ginny pigs or mine as well call us lab rats while on suboxone. They have so much more work to do with this drug so much more studies and research to but they continue to keep handing out scripts more and more like it is nothing.

But as to your problems I can relate 100% it was pretty much the same exact thing for me. The first year was great than slowly but surely the suboxone stopped working and I was miserable keep in mind I was on it for pain so that made things even worst. But the more and more people I have talked to at the methadone clinic all have gone through the same thing with Sub at first it works great but once on a while does nothing for them and that is why my true believe Suboxoene should be used for a short term opiate dependency medication not for pain but for short term patients that want off opiates quickly and if you plan on long term treatment than go on methadone. That is what I did I was on Sub for 5 year 4 miserable and I couldn’t handle the Sub WD either but I made it through it and can say since I switched to methadone I am a thousand times happier than I ever was on Suboxone. And if I could make it past the Sub WD with my pain from injuries you can to man but I would seriously start looking into methadone man I am tell you your life will change for the better. and personally no more sticking nasty ass films or pills under your tounge for 20 minutes a day.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:59 am 
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Bboy, I'm glad you qualified your statement by saying it's "your belief" that people should switch to methadone for maintenance. I would have to disagree for 2 reasons (and this may not apply to pain patients):
1. Because methadone is a full agonist some people report getting high from it, even after long term use, and that's an impediment for some people's recovery. Suboxone, being a non euphoric partial agonist usually has the effect of making people feel "normal".
2. Many folks just can't do the daily clinic thing, whether it be because if distance or some other obstacle.

And yes, this is just my opinion.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:35 am 
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I have to agree with Lilly on this one. Even for me, when it comes to treating my pain, I couldn't go on methadone as it would be way too risky with regard to my recovery/remission. I just can't be trusted with a full agonist. I'd rather have some tolerable/bearable pain left than have zero pain along with the risk of taking a full agonist. I couldn't go the clinic route, so I'd get the methadone pills from my doctor and then I'd be right back to where I was with my opanas before I started Suboxone. This illustrates how everyone is unique and has unique needs. What's right for one person isn't necessarily right for another. Just my opinion.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:18 pm 
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this topic is something man". how many people do you no changed from sub back to meth?
this same shit happens on any other med! but i guess i don't see why i can't give it a try.
but how the hell will i would work that out? i called the meth clinic" and they'rs a long waiting list? ya i been on sub 14 months ,and getting to the point to were it's making life worse be for i started anithing. i'm not going to die on suboxone i hope? so maybe i better fight to get on methadone before i don't have any go at all! i just can't go off suboxone? i'm going to fight with for my rites . i remember meth and i liked it. but hope in a wile sub will turn better for me?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:27 pm 
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Johnboy - My concern is that you said you "liked" methadone. Did you use it in your active addiction? Doesn't that concern you at all? What if you still "like" it in the way you liked the other drugs you previously used? That's my concern. Also, I know you've been messing around with your dose on a quite a few of your medications. When's the last time you discussed all of your meds with your doctor(s)? I sincerely think ALL of your meds need to be re-evaluated. It's very possible that some of the problems you're having are related to other meds you're on as well. Just my unsolicited two cents.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:48 pm 
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I am very happy you guys pointed that out actually because that is one of the biggest misconceptions about methadone the other being it weakens your bones. But I myself had the exact same worries I am no stronger physically or mentally when it comes to addiction and can agree with you 110% that was a big worry for myself as well. Thinking the famous WHAT Ifs, what if that feeling turns into wanting more or something stronger, what if that triggers my addiction and so on and so on. But after talking with my counselor and the Dr assigned to my treatment plan all those lil worries went out the door. I am not going to sit here and lie it can get you high and will get you high when not properly taken! But if you are at a good clinic with a good staff you will not get high as long as it is properly monitored and dispenenced.

And the one thing many people don’t know about methadone is at the proper dose for that individual it will block opiates actually better than suboxone. And this information came directly from my methadone Dr who also runs his own suboxone practice so this is not just me talking but someone who deals with it every day.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:18 pm 
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So what's the misconception (not the bone thing - I've never heard that)? That I might abuse it and go right back into active addiction? That a person can like the feeling too much and end up with another/repeat addiction problem? Especially for someone who gets it for pain and not from a clinic? Granted, as you said, if it's taken properly for maintenance then it shouldn't be a problem. But for some addicts it doesn't work that way. And all I said is for me, I think it would be a very bad idea. And since Johnboy said he always liked methadone, he might want to think about that a bit more.

Additionally, methadone is just another full agonist, so it doesn't "block" other opiates. If, however, one's tolerance gets high enough from being on methadone, then it will prevent one from getting any effect from taking other opiates. But it does NOT block opiates the same way suboxone does. If, however, you have some kind of citation or source to back that up, perhaps you could share it with us.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:25 pm 
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I also did not go on methadone because I knew I would abuse it. Some don't, more power to them.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:43 pm 
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Yea Hat sorry I have to disagree with you
Methadone can also chemically block the craving for heroin although it does not produce or mimic heroin's warm, euphoric 'rush'. At greater doses than those that are available in illicit opiates, it produces a blocking effect to the high of illicit opiates. This means that if the addict uses heroin while in methadone treatment, (s)he will experience little or no effect from the heroin. However, methadone does not block the intoxicating effects of non-opiate drugs (sedatives, tranquilizers, stimulants, alcohol, etc.). That is why some patients die from an overdose. Most overdoses occur when addicts in treatment supplement their prescribed methadone with other central nervous system depressants. Particularly dangerous when used in combination with methadone are: placidyl, valium, methaqualone, illicit methadone and large amounts of alcohol.

http://www.discoveryhouse.com/methadone ... ation.aspx

But the misconception is methadone will not get you high under Dr Supervision clinic or private Dr because they will not start you out on low doses than gradually bring you up over time. As to liking the felling to much you will be on such a low dose to start you wont get any type of felling of a euphoric high just read the first sentence in my copy pase. I can say from my very own experience that my first doses of suboxone got me more high my far than methadone did. As of people getting it for pain a lot of people at methadone clinics get it for pain and get weekly up to monthly take homes once they prove they can handle it.

I think what the biggest problem is the people are so blinded by rumors about methadone they don’t actually see the drug for what it really is.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:04 pm 
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I was looking more along the lines of a clinical or scientific study. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. It's obvious that everyone here respects that you are doing better on methadone than suboxone, but you don't seem to respect some people who have fears about returning to active addiction by going back on a full agonist over suboxone. It's our way of remaining vigilant. Our choice to stay on suboxone is just as valid as your choice to switch to methadone.

Sorry to the original poster for my part in hijacking this thread.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:08 pm 
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Bboy42287 wrote:
I think what the biggest problem is the people are so blinded by rumors about methadone they don’t actually see the drug for what it really is.


While I am really happy for you Bboy that your personal experience with switching from Suboxone to Methadone has gone so well and you are feeling much better, I am a little worried that methadone is now being portrayed as the "miracle drug" or at the very least as the superior choice for long(er) term maintainence therapy or pain mangement. I understand that you want to share your experience and even why you might want to advocate for other Suboxone patients to make the switch to MMT. I think that a lot of FACTS are being left out of this conversation though.

Suboxone and Methadone both have their positives and negatives and anyone considering either of these medications would be smart to research both of them fully and talk to their health care providers about which would be the better choice for their own personal circumstances.

Bboy, I hear you saying that your depression (or lack of emotion) has improved since you switched to methadone and that is wonderful, but are you aware that there are studies that show that being on MMT, especially at doses above 120mgs/day, is a major risk-factor for developing depression? Did you know that this effect is even more pronounced if you are female? In this study 50% of the MMT patients studied were suffering from depression:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17055063

Interestingly, patients new to MMT were less likely to be depressed than patients who had been on MMT for a longer period of time. It's almost like the longer you are on opiate replacement therapy, the more chance you have that it will effect your emotions at some point, which totally makes sense.

When I first started Suboxone, I was in a research study that was being conducted at the local VA hospital. The doctor running the study was the head of the addiction program at the VA and he had many, many years experience with MMT. He told me that many of his long-term MMT patients had suffered from intractable depression, and when they switched to Suboxone, their depression was finally lifted. He thought, for this reason among others, that Suboxone was a very promising medication. He also told me that he had many long-term patients who had found it nearly impossible to taper off of MMT but were successful in completing a Suboxone taper. In fact, some methadone clinics are developing a protocol of using Suboxone to taper off of MMT, because it's much easier to complete a Sub taper than an MMT taper.

I'm not telling you this to invalidate your experience or to say that MMT is bad or anything. I just want to point out that your experience is not the UNIVERSAL experience. Suboxone didn't work for you and I am really happy that you've found something better. I hope that MMT continues to work for you for as long as you need it. But just like you (and others) have had the experience of Suboxone working well for a while and then NOT working as well....other people have had that SAME effect with MMT. It makes me wonder if it's just an aspect of our brains adjusting to WHATEVER chemical we put into them on a long-term basis.

Besides depression, methadone has a long list of potential side effects...just like Suboxone does. If MMT patients have an opportunity to taper off the medication they may be able to do so without severe withdrawal, but should they lose access to the medication and be forced to quit cold-turkey, the withdrawals will be severe and they last for a long time. Here's a quote from the Wikipedia page on methadone:

Quote:
Withdrawal symptoms have shown to be up to twice as severe than those of morphine or heroin at equivalent doses and are significantly more prolonged; methadone withdrawal symptoms can last for several weeks or more. A general guideline is a 1:1 ratio for trouble free detox. Being on a constant dose of say 100 mg. for one year, can take 18–24 months for safe detoxification. At high maintenance doses, sudden cessation of therapy can result in withdrawal symptoms described as "the worst withdrawal imaginable," lasting from weeks to months


Methadone is more likely to cause respiratory depression than Suboxone, and like Suboxone can be fatal when combined with benzodiazapines and/or alcohol. Like any opiate, methadone causes dry mouth, which can have a negative impact on your teeth. It also causes constipation, just like any other opiate.

Methadone is a better analgesic, which is great for chronic pain patients - but it also comes with a LOT of regulation that may put it out of reach for some people. Many pain management doctors won't prescribe methadone to pain patients who are admitted addicts because they can get into trouble. If you can't find a pain management doctor who will prescribe for you, you will have to get your MMT at a methadone clinic and that option just doesn't work for everyone.

For example, I looked into MMT before I started Suboxone. The methadone clinics in my city are both in the South end, and I live in the North. I don't have the ability to drive across town every morning to get my dose while I wait for the doctors to decide if I get take homes or not. I also did not want to be forced into attendance at 12 step meetings, which is another requirement of the MMT clinics in my area. Not to mention that I used methadone from time to time during my active addiction and found it quite euphoric, even if it wasn't quite as euphoric as dilaudid, it certainly did the job. At least with Suboxone I wasn't tempted to take extra doses in the quest to get high - because it just doesn't work, as most of us quickly learn. I can't tell you how many people I've talked to who were on MMT and found themselves in a bad situation because the very first weekend that they got take-homes they took all of their medication on Friday because unlike Sub, methadone has no ceiling effect and you CAN get high by taking more of it.

These factors might not have the same amount of weight in everyone's decision making process as they did for me and I am not listing them here in order to say that MMT is bad or Sub is better. I am just pointing out that there is a LOT to consider here and EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT.

Both Suboxone and Methadone (MMT) are potent and powerful medications that people are using to treat a life-threatening problem and neither of them are without potential downfalls. I hope EVERYONE will take all of these things into consideration when deciding which treatment route to persue.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:32 am 
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gee". i better not sell my self short on one little sentence ! i just want to feel back to were i was 6 months ago? could still be the other meds??? hope it is/ i hope it is? then i'll know ." my doc doesen't no bout it any more than i do? i don't no what bboy saying bout stoping cravings? but switching is a nice change sometime. me switching to meth- would feel better. the body likes things like that'for a short time, when it comes to pain killers. ya hat"' sub stops what meth won't .


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:29 am 
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I was on methadone. Methadone will cause the same problems long term. It will turn on you. You will be encouraged to continue increasing your dose. That is how the clinic gets its claws into you and gets you addicted. I got high as a kite on methadone. Especially when combined with a small amount of benzo, which can kill you.

I just had my testosterone checked and it is very low. I have to have more blood work done. All this is making me furious. I want off the sub but it is very hard to go down. I try to go down 2mg every 2 weeks to a month, but even this rate is too fast. I take 8mg.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:24 pm 
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BuphasMe, I'm glad you posted again. I think now the majority ot the pros and cons of both Sub and Methadone have been stated - and there is really no reason to get into a debate on your thread. Did you taper off of methadone just long enough to get on Sub, or did you taper all the way off and then start Sub at a later date? I think you CAN taper off, and the slow way you're doing it is probably for the best. I know you want off NOW, but having just read another poster's thread where he tapered to something like 0.25mg (?) and saturated skipping days, makes me think that's the way to go. He reported very mild, short lived symptoms.
I know you are pissed and I understand it. I swear, every other day I feel like I never should have started Sub, but this is where i am and I can't change it. I hope you feel better as you dose gets lower, and keep following up on your other medical issues. Keep us posted,
Lilly

PS. Great post Diary


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:02 pm 
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Oh I know what you are saying DOAQ and any drug will have long term side effects. My first visit with my counselor was 2 hours long going over everything about methadone so I know the bad and the good before I started but I think it was the worth the good or the bad because I just didn’t want to live in pain any more ya know. And methadone allowed me to not live in pain and that is why I am so methadone crazy right now pretty much because for the first time in a long time I am happy and I just want to share my experience with suboxone the good and the bad it just turned out that after looking over things there were a lot more bad than good at the end of the day.

Hat I respect any addicts choice of what direction they take for their recovery and would never tell someone what direction to take. I just think people have a right to know that Suboxone is not this miracle drug that these forums make it out to be and it seems that more and more people are starting to catch on to this but only after they spend time on the drug. So the point of my post is for people to not have to spend time or get false hope that is all I am trying to say.

As of respecting people are scared to going back on full antagonist I do I just wanted to point out that methadone is not like people make it out to be if taken under Dr supervision that is all. You will not get the high they talk off or the cravings if started out on low doses and slowly raised. But if taken wrong it will get you high and will put you at risk of relapse or a new addiction. But only when taken with the instinct to do so.


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