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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:02 pm 
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I haven't posted in a long time, I have been away. I quit Suboxone March 22nd of last year, after about 6 years on starting at 24mg. I tapered all the way down to 2mg then split that in half then in half again etc you all know the process. :P It's amazing how much this drug takes hold of our bodies and our minds. I will never forget waiting at the pharmacy like a kid waiting for a new toy, feeling so helpless waiting on them to process my medication. I wanted to scream "What is taking so long? All you have to do is put in the box!!" Of course I never did that, I was always on my best behavior at the pharmacy and at the doctor's office. I became such an excellent deceiver.

The sad thing is that my wife left me before I was clean, so she never got to experience the real me back. She is remarried now and I see my 3 children on the weekends. I do see them every week so I am very thankful for that, but I still find it hard to put in words the feeling I get when I walk in to my ex-wife's new house with her new husband and see half of the things that we bought together, and my children in their beds that we bought together and toys that I remember picking out for them, all knowing that I'm not in that world anymore.

So I have stayed off suboxone. I have on a few occasions found myself with some pills, even some really good ones, and I did take them. I honestly didn't ever feel the same rush as before, which I say is a blessing, maybe because I felt so guilty for taking them. Then about a year ago I found Kratom. It started innocently enough, I took some kratom before a Christmas party and it was great. Well once a month became once a week became one a day became twice a day etc. I now spend about $20 a day on Kratom. I think that half the time it doesn't do anything at all, but I just feel like I need something to get through the day. Why do I have to feel that way? I have so many friends who don't need this, don't need something extra to get them through the day, they would never think this way. I have told no one about the Kratom, and although I am off suboxone I can't honestly say I am clean. I wish I knew why I felt the need to self sabotage myself. I work out 3-5 times a week and look better than I have in years, I have been on many dates and I have a great job and I love my children more than anything in the world. But it's not enough. Why is it not enough?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:14 pm 
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That is a question that only you can answer! So, is the kratom getting you high? Do you feel that you are addicted to it? Do you want to go back on suboxone? Have you thought about counseling to help you with the answers to your questions? Please stick around and let us know how you are!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:41 pm 
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Michelle-

Thank you for your response. It feels good to talk about it, even anonymously. I honestly am not sure if it gets me high or not. Sometimes after taking it I feel a rush of energy and I feel really motivated to work and focus, but it isn't a consistent feeling like heroin or oxy or even suboxone. About a week ago I was trying to go to sleep and I had the strangest feeling in my leg. It took me a few minutes to realize I was having restless leg syndrome, and the last time I had that was in suboxone withdrawal. I had only taken about half as much kratom that day because I was running low on money.

I know my wallet can't afford this habit, and I know that no good can be coming from it. I need to get back in to therapy, I should be taking the money I spend on kratom and using it towards a good therapist. Lots of "I should" statements.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:14 pm 
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You are doing these things because your opiate addiction has made permanent changes in your brain. These changes have made it more likely that you will relapse. First, your pleasure/reward circuits are now primed for opioid actions at the mu receptor and other lesser receptors (at least where opioids are concerned). The brain areas that deal with memories have you primed to notice things in your environment that you associate with using, also promoting relapse. Also your addiction has impeded the inhibitory actions in your frontal lobe, which makes it harder for your brain to put a stop to conditioned pro-opiate thoughts and behaviors.

This is what all of us are up against! It is very complex, which is why it takes a lot of work on our parts to overcome these brain changes, even when we are on buprenorphine. It sounds like you're ready to do some work with a therapist which is a good thing.

I'm sorry that you don't feel like yourself when you're on buprenorphine because it can be such a useful tool. I'm someone whose personality is not affected by bupe. I laugh, I cry, I get a little freaked out sometimes, lol, but my family never think that I act differently than my usual self. I'm sorry that your marriage ended, but you can still be such a positive part of that family. I'm a step parent myself and we often get together with my husband's ex-wife and her husband as part of family gatherings. All of us have made efforts to be our best for the kids and the grandkids. You can be a real asset to your children by making sure you are a positive parent with your other co-parents. I wish you the best and hope you get the help that you need.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:34 pm 
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Your an Opiate Addict..thats why simply put.
You and I and others have a lack of Dopamine in our brains, and once we start adding to it the chances
of stopping go way down.
I just read a new study that says the men 35 to 54 are the highest level of relapse and death. Other
categories are holding stady in other groups of people, but we men are go upward in the wroug direction.

I really hope you look into helping yourself. The fact you ve taking pills already aloug with Kratom
would indicate treatment again..

I feel for ya man, I lost my home for 2 years but got back in, i cant even

imagine walking into her new home and seeing there life..

My 2 cents...


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:11 pm 
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Thank you Razor and Amy for your excellent posts. I guess it does come down to that. I am definitely going to go to therapy to try to resolve some of my internal issues. I have always been fascinated by addiction studies because obviously I am an addict and always will be. There was an excellent youtube video recently (i will try to find it) that was basically challenging many of our current addiction ideas. The original experiment involving a rat and two water bottles (one with normal water and one with morphine and cocaine) and they found the rat would basically kill itself. But finally someone said "Wait a minute, this isn't a good test. Rats are social creatures, and this rat is all alone". So they made a rat heaven, with lots of rats and all the things a rat would want. They placed the same two bottles in the rat heaven experiment and guess what? They found that when the rat's social and emotional needs were being met, they were up to 90% less likely to use the water with the drugs.

I mention all that because I have always believed that addiction (at least for me) is the lack of something. Yes chemically it is dopamine receptors in our brain, but is it a straight up chemical imbalance or do I life a live that is not meeting my emotional and social needs? I started using originally back in college when I was failing out of school. I was clean for a bit, then started using again when my first child was born. The challenge is that it's very hard to have an honest, fulfilling relationship and be an addict at the same time. I will always love one thing more. So the thing that may be my saving grace is the thing I can't give myself to completely. What a mess ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:22 pm 
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Yes, I am familiar with those I should statements too! lol Only you know the answers to these questions and only you will do something to change if and/or when it gets to be uncomfortable. I have been very lucky with suboxone! It took over for the tramadol and is helping me three fold! Enjoy the weekend!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:54 pm 
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Ur right about not being able to give someone the love and devotion they deserve while still actively using...even if it's using some of the time. U won't be fulfilled urself in a relationship either until u get in recovery completely. I think u already know that though and of course it's not something u can just say...ok I'm done being an addict. If anyone knows how that feels is another addict like myself and the rest of us here.

I'll give u a short version of how my relationship that I'm in now was before I got on suboxone & seeing my addiction counselor, which to me is in recovery. For the first yr of my relationship, I was using very heavy. My bf, who came out of nowhere, isn't an addict. He loved me unconditionally and was completely supportive, but my using always came first. I couldn't even function til I had my fix so even going on a date circled around that. And I was convinced that I didn't love him the way he loved me. I could've cared less at times if he was around or not. Finally a yr later he convinced me to get suboxone treatment and I did. It was a light bulb moment once I became my "normal" self again. I love this person so much and realized how I'd treated him was awful, I still feel guilty about it. Five years later, we are taking about getting married and thank God he stuck it out with me. Ur exactly right about not being able to be in a relationship right now, but u can change that. And it doesn't have to be suboxone if u think that's not a good decision for u, it could be any recovery plan. Things can get bk to a good place again. Don't give up!!!! :)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:18 pm 
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Yes Doingit,
There was a study done by aDr named Alexander. It shows how these rats lives were changed
by setting up Rat Park.
These rats had a life so to speak . There environment was changed.
The rats with nothing else to do hit the cocaine bottle till death. So, our environment does
have a huge impact on our addiction. As well as trauma as children and the ego to cover these traumatic issues.

Tne book Chaising the Screem by Johann Hari i believe is a must read. Also Dreamland by Sam Quinon.


Just a suggestion. .so much to all of this besides not picking up...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:24 pm 
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Thank you Razor, I will definitely check out Chasing the Scream I am one of those people that would rather watch a documentary than a reality TV show (as long as it's a good documentary). I try to absorb as much information as possible.

For me it has always been one addiction after another. About a year and a half ago I quit Suboxone and Ambien/Lunesta which was very difficult. The suboxone I weened down (I posted my journal) but the ambien I knew I was completely addicted. I look back at pictures of myself at that time and I was just a shell of a man. My eyes were empty. I love a line that another forum writer wrote who said that she could look at pictures and remember exactly what drug she was on at that time. I can completely relate to that.

One thing I have been wondering is if I am in the minority in terms of my drug use. I have never been a social drug user, meaning I don't have a group of friends who I "use" with. My addiction, no matter the drug, has always been a solo one. I read so many journals of people who had to change their phone number or move because the temptation was so great that they could just call someone who they used with and get right back in, but it was never like that with me. Even when I was a drinker it was always alone at night (even while married). I think it comes down to a lot of self-loathing. For me church has definitely helped, I know it isn't for everyone but I feel a weight lifted off my soul every time I go to church. Please don't think I am coming down against anyone, I have been an atheist in my life and I found God again and for me it has been very helpful.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:07 pm 
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I am with you, prayer and my faith in God has always been a very big support for me. I am so happy that you found your way back! I too did not party with anyone. No one even knew I had a problem with pills. I never took them to be high...just feeling good about life and my normal self!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:13 pm 
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Hey Doin,
Chaising the Screem is a book not a Documentary. .and it is great to rediscover some spiritual help. Can make all the difference really.

At the worst of my useing days I was isolated, stayed that way till found Sub an recovery..hang in there....






Razor


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:11 pm 
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I was never a social user either. To me, the time when I could get high was "me time". I was on oxycodone 24/7, but I would take very little throughout the day until everyone had gone to bed at night or gone to work. Then I would try to achieve a high and chase it all night long. I would go to bed sometime around 4 or 5 am, my husband took my son to school in the morning while I slept till around 11am. It was crazy!

Weirdo addiction!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:16 am 
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Me too lol, I had ppl that I got my pills from but as far as partying, not at all. If I was out of my pills, I'd leave first thing in the morning and get them, then return home and live like most mothers do. Of course being a good mother only happened when I was free of withdrawal and could be "normal" again until it wore off and time to do it all over again....like groundhog day. I had no friends that were addicts, so when I first became addicted I stopped communication with all of them because of shame. Then the last yr I was using before suboxone, I met my bf who's definitely not an addict. So I was a lonely addict surrounded by ppl who had no understanding of addiction. Thank God that's in the past, my life is so much better now. I cringe at some of the things from my past. Forgiving urself is hard and takes time, but it is possible.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:58 am 
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Jenn, I am so with you on the forgiving yourself part of all of this. I find it so difficult to do. I did something back in 2008 that I am just now allowing myself freedom from the guilt. Funny thing is that I believe that so much power and growth comes from forgiveness. And, I can forgive anyone for anything, and teach my clients about the importance of forgiveness, but still have such a difficult time with it for myself! I am now at a place of forgiveness for myself but it was not easy getting here. God has played a huge role in this and I really am grateful to have found my way!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:50 pm 
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Yes Michelle, I know exactly what ur talking about. Over the years of active addiction, I've done some things that is extremely hard to forgive myself. I remember when I was in rehab, I had so much guilt flooding me that I didn't think I could take it, even thinking about not being the 100% mother I should have been to my kids was completely unbearable. I think that's another reason I couldn't stop using, the raw emotion was way too much causing extreme depression...I'm sure u know that feeling, all addicts do probably. Forgiving urself is huge and difficult. I still struggle with certain things at times, but it does get easier. And Michelle, like u, prayer is a huge release for me. I don't go to church as often as I should but my faith is strong and it's a big part of my recovery too. U can't go wrong with prayer. Ppl that are new to recovery needs to understand how important forgiving urself is. Without it, ur kinda stuck. Have a great day Michelle and everyone else!!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:01 pm 
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Hi Jenn, I don't have kids of my own but one of my biggest mistakes wound up being hurtful to my niece. I did not intend for this to happen but it did and while I have forgiven myself, I can not seem to completely let go of it. I am not sure that it is a bad thing. There is a saying in aa "keeping it green" and while I don't think we should live in the past and/or dwell on these things, I do think having them tucked away and bringing them out to remember and feel as a way of not going back there is a good thing! This is where my relationship with God comes in. I know my God has forgiven me because I have been taught that if you ask for forgiveness than it shall be received. And certainly if God is willing to forgive, than I can do it too! Have a great evening everyone!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:34 pm 
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I wrote a long reply a few weeks back but for some reason the system didn't save it and i didn't feel like writing it out again. So I am seriously considering going back on Suboxone. My life is pretty much out of control right now from a financial perspective. I don't have a ton of money left over after paying child support, alimony, insurance, etc and i have found myself borrowing money to pay for the Kratom addiction. There are days that I am spending $30 on my habit. When I first started taking Suboxone years ago my insurance wouldn't cover it and I was taking 24mg (way too high of a dose) and it was costing $8 per pill (before the film). I lived that like for a year and then changed jobs and gloriously my insurance covered a month supply for $35. Now I am spending that in a day and a half and for nothing as far as I'm concerned.

I hate writing this out because I don't want to discourage people who are trying to quit suboxone. I have a personality type that gets addicted to pretty much anything I can and then I completely obsess about that object. I was hard core addicted to Ambien at one point and I can remember my mood that day would entirely depend on how many pills I had left. What's strange is that to me it was better to be completely out of pills than have a half of what I needed to get high... does that make any sense? I would spend hours looking for one more pill to make enough for the "correct" dosage for that evening.

I am going to call some doctors this evening and just be completely honest. Now that I'm thinking about it I wonder if they will consider me for suboxone since you normally have to be in full opiate withdrawal. Even if I quit kratom do they consider that opiate withdrawal? I know it doesn't show up on most standard drug tests. That's a strange problem to have. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:52 pm 
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Hello Doing It, good to hear from you again. I was hopping you were thinking of sub treatment . There is nothing wroug with going back on. We are all addicts and as ive seen and learned here from others and Dr. Junig, the safest way to get clen and stay clean is sub maintaince. Goiing back to your op in Nov, you were already playing around with K. that can only increase over time, and it did. There may be a few people out there that can go without bupe but so much has to change for years of success. The cost of relapes is to great for some. So best of luck finding a new dr, or just call your old one. Your an opiate addict, so do not worry that your not Sick enough to get treatment. You cant stop useing so that should be plenty of fact and truth for most drs. Keep us posted DoinIT.....razor..


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:06 pm 
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Doing it, I want you to be aware that science is backing you up. It doesn't back the efficacy of abstinence based treatment. You can see which types of therapy are effective in dealing with addicts, but none of them are as effective as MAT. Buprenorphine, when taken correctly, is effective at keeping opiate addicts from relapsing 60 to 65% of the time. Research is showing that long term MAT with bupe is the most effective treatment for opiate addicts. You did not relapse because you have an addictive personality. You relapsed because you are an opiate addict.

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