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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:44 am 
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Thank you all for your responses, this board is very comforting. So i am currently tapering off Kratom. Strange how I am back in this same situation. I imagine I'm not the only person who has gone through the process of quitting more than once. :)

I called a suboxone doctor in my area and set up an appointment for 2 weeks from now. I decided not to use the same doctor as before because they were a "get off suboxone ASAP" type facility. I am tired of this roller coaster. While I was on a good dose of suboxone (say 2mg) i was totally functional and I didn't have any thoughts of obtaining medication. I think what really caused my personality to drift away was the very high dosage I started with (24mg). By the time I got down to 2mg I wasn't sure who I was anymore.

As far as the Kratom, I have been halfing my dosage (or close) every day this week. I have only really been addicted to the kratom for about a year, and my highest usage was about 30mg a day. Monday I took 20mg, yesterday I took 11mg and today I am planning on taking 6mg. So far I am feeling a bit off and last night I woke up every 2-3 hours but all in all I wouldn't say that it's too unbearable. Maybe I should move my post to the quitting section. :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:14 pm 
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So last night was interesting to say the least. I have been planning on tapering off Kratom for a few months now (at least since November when I wrote the original post). This week things fell into place so I have done the following:

Sunday 30mg (10mg morning, 10mg afternoon, 10mg evening)
Monday 20mg (10mg morning, 10mg evening)
Tuesday 12mg (6mg morning, 6mg afternoon)
Wednesday 7mg (5mg morning, 2mg afternoon)

Last night I went to bed early because I was feeling a bit under the weather. Two of my three children have tested positive for flu this week despite having a flu shot back in October. I never got the flu shot so I am stocking up on orange juice and honey. At 10pm I took my melatonin, turned off all the lights and read for about 20 minutes then laid down to bed. Immediately the restless legs kicked in. I immediately recognized the RLS from my previous withdrawals but found it very strange because:
1) everything I have read about Kratom says the withdrawal symptoms are much milder than full "hard" opiates (including suboxone)
2) i have really only been using kratom at a high level for about 6-9 months and even then "high level" is very subjective.
3) i can't think of a number 3 i am too tired :lol:

Since I am an experienced addict I did all the things I know to do for RLS:
calcium pill, hot bath, bananas for potassium, ibuprofen, exercised for a bit, moved around, icy hot cream, warm compress. Around 3am I resorted to some xanax. NOTHING worked. It started in my legs then moved to my wrists. I finally fell asleep at some point before 6am and was up at 8:45 (and late to work).

I honestly am shocked. I am going to stock up on immodium today and am planning on just not taking any more kratom. I don't see the point of taking more at this time unless that was just the beginning. At some point I have to get some sleep. Oh the joys of being an addict. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:55 pm 
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There are people who say that heroin offers the worst withdrawal symptoms. There are people who say that buprenorphine withdrawals are the worst, and yet I know people on this forum who have stepped off really easily with no side effects. What this means to me is that you have to take other people's opinions with a grain of salt. They may be reporting what they remember experiencing, but that doesn't mean their experience will stack up with yours! It wouldn't ever shock me if I had a more difficult or less difficult time stopping a medication. Subjective experiences don't necessarily reflect what is true.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:09 pm 
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Thank you Amy for the reply. I hope I'm not abusing this board by writing about kratom withdrawal in the bupe in the rearview mirror board. Please let me know and I will stop. I was on this board all the time back in my suboxone days and have found myself drawn back to it now again.

Last night was another night of no sleep. I have been so wrong about the kratom withdrawal process. As you said Amy everyone is different and no two experiences will be alike. I am almost positive (I need to stop saying that) that this is because I have gone through withdrawal at least 4 other times before and probably have added to my difficulty. To me though this is a very compelling reason to get back on suboxone since it was very manageable and the cost was very reasonable ($35 for a month supply). On suboxone I wasn't obsessed with finding other medications. I have an appointment with my new doctor on March 17th.

I am honestly very torn about what to do next. I actually had to call in to work today which is something I didn't do on suboxone withdrawal until the third week I believe. I was SO tired last night, i was absolutely certain I would fall right asleep. But again it wasn't until 6am that I was able to fall asleep and even then only for about 3-4 hours. I can't keep doing this. I actually went back and calculated the amount of kratom I was taking on a daily basis and it was more like 60g instead of 30g (i mistakenly posted "mg" instead of "g"). So the withdrawal has been more like this:

Nov - Feb: between 40-70g a day of kratom
Sunday 60g (20g morning, 20g afternoon, 20g evening)
Monday 20g (10g morning, 10g evening)
Tuesday 12g (6g morning, 6g afternoon)
Wednesday 7g (5g morning, 2g afternoon)
Thursday 0g
Friday 0g

I am possibly through the worst of it but could in all reality have another 3-5 days of this. Luckily during the day the withdrawal symptoms are pretty minimal but the combined affect of such little sleep is what is really troubling. Even right now after just 2 days of almost minimal sleep I'm feeling disassociated from my body. Thank God tomorrow is Saturday so I could risk another night but Saturday night would be the final straw. If I don't sleep Saturday night I would have no choice but to take the kratom again since I can't take another day off from work.

I went out last night at 2am and bought Immodium from Walmart. It brought about 5 minutes of relief and I thought I was going to pass out but the restless legs came right back. I had stocked up on Iron, Calcium, Vitamin D and melatonin yesterday morning. I took a really hot shower at 4am which was almost euphoric but it didn't translate to actual sleep. I closed the drain and laid in the hot water while the water from the shower fell over me. I am supposed to meet a friend tonight for a concert but who knows what will actually happen. Since I will most likely but up anyways I guess I will go out.

Bottom line in my message: Kratom is NOT a joke. I don't believe anyone is saying kratom is an actual opiate but it binds to the same mU receptors in the brain as opiates and can lead to tolerance and addiction. I honestly don't have much bad to say about kratom itself except that my habit became just unmanageable from a cost perspective. I wonder if kratom will someday replace methadone as a withdrawal agent for opiates. It really does have effectiveness but of course smarter people than me have to judge the merits of replacing one addictive chemical with another. As I have learned in this forum addiction is a life time journey. We are never NOT addicts. I am willing to bet that most of us turned to drugs because we couldn't find other coping mechanisms and when we come off these drugs we haven't magically learned the correct coping mechanisms.... we are faced with all of our original problems plus the damage done from years of substance abuse. I have more than once thought coming off the drug was the major step when in all reality it's just the start.

Good journey to everyone


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:54 pm 
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You are welcome to be here and share what you've learned about kratom. We just disagree with people who say that kratom will make your opiate withdrawals go away without any trouble. As you know, it's not that simple.

Amy

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:17 pm 
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I just wanted to tell ya doingit that I saw a thread this morning about kratom. Someone is actually praising kratom for relieving suboxone withdrawal and I don't think they understand that kratom is going to cause more withdrawal and addiction problems. I can't remember where the thread is but I hope that they come to ur thread and read ur experience with this. I keep seeing more and more ppl thinking kratom is the answer to stop sub and I don't think they even have a clue on what's going to happen long term.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:13 am 
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Thank you Amy and JennJenn for your replies. I am on my 5th day of no kratom and I can honestly say for me that kratom withdrawal has actually been worse than suboxone withdrawal. Absolutely everyone's experience will be different, but for me I would absolutely conclude that swapping suboxone for kratom is a bad idea.

I have NO doubt that kratom provides much of the same responses to the body as opiates. And like any addictive substance there will be withdrawal when you remove it from your body. I like to try and keep an open mind about things but as I have progressed in my kratom journey I have noticed some troubling things.

1) despite being a natural substance (kratom is normally the ground up leaves of the Mitragyna speciosa tree in the Indonesian area) there is surprisingly little long term clinical information on kratom. It is listed as a "drug of concern" in the United States. We honestly don't seem to know the long term affects of kratom to the human body. Suboxone by contrast is a well studied, known drug that has proven reliable and safe when administered correctly.

2) Most medical facilities probably would have no idea how to treat kratom overdose if it were to actually happen. (I must say I am not a doctor and perhaps I am completely wrong)

3) because of the above two items and from my own experience I would see switching from Suboxone to Kratom as a step backwards. When is the right time to switch from kratom to suboxone? What is the true half life of kratom? What if any health concerns are there from sudden withdrawal? Does kratom lower the seizure risk similiar to opiates? What affects does it have on blood pressure? Too many unknowns.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:24 am 
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Hey Doing,

My only experience w kratom was learning a bit about it from my rehab roommate, who was unable to stop without rehab, which occurred bc the family finally noticed lots of cash withdrawals and found a $100K credit card debt, insisted on rehab or they'd take the kids away. I watched this roommate withdraw, not pretty.

So, to me, sounds like you are doing well! Hang in there, you are approaching your bup MD appt!! Best, P


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:03 pm 
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Pelican thank you for the reply. That is almost exactly the reason I have quit kratom. What started as a $10 a month "hobby" became a $30-40 a day habit that was only increasing. Once again my day revolved around getting my DOC, I sold most of my old video games and my PS4 for money and even borrowed from friends. Unlike suboxone I don't know if there is a ceiling affect on kratom. The more I think about going back on suboxone the more right it feels. On suboxone I didn't spend my day putting money together for my next purchase or waiting at the mailbox.

I actually managed to get some sleep Friday night (granted I didn't fall asleep until 4am). Saturday night the restless legs seemed to take a break and I got 8 hours of sleep. Then yesterday (Sunday) had absolutely no energy, general malaise and overall aching. Last night tried to go to sleep and my old nemesis RLS came back to party. I think I fell asleep around 2am and had to be up at 5:45 to get my kids off to school. Thank God for the 2 nights of sleep. I am actually feeling my legs twitch and clench up now in the middle of the day. I am freezing all the time despite it being spring outside and my eyes look like weights were hung from my eyelids. I haven't worked out in over a week, in fact I have barely eaten anything all week.

I have decided that there is no way I am going back to kratom EVER. Even though I only slept 3 hours last night I feel like taking again would just destroy everything I have done. Since there isn't a ton of information on kratom withdrawal it's really hard to say how long this will last but I have been surprised at the level of withdrawal. It's not the same as going off heroin by any means... I am at work after all while writing this. But for anyone considering using kratom to get off suboxone you are doing yourself a disservice.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:00 pm 
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I am so glad you are here sharing your journey. It takes a lot of guts to admit making a mistake in trying something outside of what our forum recommends. I so appreciate your honesty through this whole process.

I hope that you're feeling a lot better soon!

Amy

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:58 am 
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Another restless night. I am on day 6 of withdrawals with no kratom taken since 7g on March 9th around 5pm. The restless legs are much worse for me with these withdrawals than they were from my suboxone withdrawal. Last night I finally fell asleep around 2:30 after a super hot bath and some nighttime flu medicine. I feel my calves knotting up even now in the morning.

I made the jump at about .5mg of Suboxone after being on it for almost 5 years and starting at 24mg. I may even have been on 32mg at one point. As the subdoctor on here has stated, tapering down from 24mg to 4mg wasn't bad at all in my opinion. Suboxone has so many benefits and you are in a controlled environment which is crucial in recovery. It also provides some clinical support with communication with your doctor.

With kratom there is none of that. I can go across the street right now and buy a ton of kratom from a gas station that loves when I come in because I spend a ton of money. I have been lucky in that I pay cash for everything and I haven't gone into too much debt yet, today i am paying back all the friends that I borrowed from and getting ready for my sub doctor on Thursday. I have been a horrible employee lately, with kratom I was full of energy and getting stuff done but the guilt that was building up in my gut was reaching critical mass. I am so ashamed to admit this but last week when I realized I would have to stop taking I came really close to selling some of my kids toys for money. :( They had purchased those toys with money from Santa Claus. That was the last straw for me. I didn't do it. I said this is enough... my children are the most important thing to me and what I am doing goes against everything I stand for.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:03 pm 
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Thank you for sharing your story. I considered trying something to restore some energy, and now I know better. And that's thanks to you! So, thank you!

I know it can be embarrassing to admit al of this, but please don't be embarrassed. We have all done something we are not proud of to avoid WD. I sold all of my dead mother jewlery and my grandfather's guns that were given to me, just to stay on my "precious" pills. Nobody knows but my hubby. My family would disown me. The guilt I feel from that is immense. At one point I stole change out of my daughter's purse to come up with a dollar I needed, and I used to take my dad's tramadol he got for his broken back so I could stay "well." What a nasty, dirty tail spin we have all been through.

I only tell you all of this in the hopes of you seeing that you are not alone in this. You said you considered selling the toys...but did you? NO! You should be PROUD of yourself!

Anyways, I just wanted to jump in and tell you a little of my ridiculous story and know you are in my thoughts and prayers and I will be checking in on you. Stay strong my friend and hang in there until your Dr appt! You can do this!
~Lori


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 2:50 pm 
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Hi DIDBD, Just checking in to see how you are doing? I was so happy to read that you made the decision to start suboxone again! That sounds like a really good idea to me. I too have so much guilt about going to friends homes and checking to see what they had in their medicine cabinet. I had even switched pills. I went and purchased a bottle of generic tylenol and switched those for vicodin. It was an old script a friend had from when they had gone to the dentist. But, I just knew that they were sitting there! Uggh! So shady, I do think I have forgiven myself for this behavior but just talking about it makes me feel really guilty. I try to stay focused on where I am today. I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers! I really do hope the feedback that you are getting here is a comfort to you! I know it is helping me!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:06 am 
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Hello Doing it!
I hope you are feeling ok today! I wish been around when you first wrote and more specifically, I would have liked to recommend magnesium powder to relieve RLS. I was encouraged to take this when I stopped methadone. It has also helped me tremendously with nerve pain.
You are doing so well being this far into your WD. I hope you are feeling encouraged and excited by your resolve to turn things around. I hope you are proud of yourself!
Given your circumstances, it sounds like suboxone will be a great option for you.
I am curious to know how life was for you for the many years you were on subs?
I also wanted to say that I am sorry your family dynamic has changed and I can only imagine how difficult that may have been. It sounds like your making the absolute best out of what you can.
Doing it, we understand how addiction lead us into making decisions that were at the expense of others. People we love.
It's time for all of us to leave the guilt behind.
Be active in being better people.
Loribug, thank you for sharing something as personal as you did. i hope you can find a way to release the guilt you feel. Understand, if in the same situation, I would likely have done the same thing.
Michelle, you are such a sweet and beautiful person. You do so much good in this world so please be kinder to yourself.x
Hope to hear from you both again,
Take care


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:43 pm 
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Hey everyone! I had my sub appointment today. I have been dying to write up the latest information but right as I got to work some really hot tickets fell in my lab and I have been working on them ever since (I do advanced computer routing). I will have an update later today.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:30 pm 
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After yet another long absence I'm back on the suboxone forum. It feels like home in a way. So back in March of this year (2016) I was left with no choice but to come off the kratom as I was completely out of money and refused to borrow any more. I have no credit cards by choice and pay everything with cash and just refused to sell my children's toys for drug money. I tapered down for 4 days then was out of money and out of kratom so I took the plunge. I lasted 7 days. The withdrawals were much worse than I expected and by the 5th night I would have done anything to get some sleep. I tried every other the counter medicine I could find and I honestly was concerned about losing my job by day 7. Well day 7 just happened to also be payday so I drove to a gas station across the street with my tail between my legs and bought a nice big bottle of kratom. I took about 10 pills and within an hour was on top of the world again. You know except for the overwhelming guilt, self-loathing and shame.

So fast forward a couple of months and I have moved out into my own place. It isn't huge but it's perfect for me and I am so excited to be starting my life over. My move in date was July 15th so I had this big elaborate plan to begin tapering kratom a month before the move (around June 15th) and if I had followed it things should have worked out. The problem of course is that I am an addict. Maybe some addicts can set strict limits on what they take each day but I am not one of those people. I can almost hear the pills calling me from the other side of the house. By the date of the move I hadn't cut back at all and if anything was increasing the amount of money I was spending each day. I did get one credit card and racked up almost $2000 in under 2 months. I decided this was close enough to rock bottom.

I tried doing the suboxone route again but no one would take me since I was on Xanax (1mg two times a day). I get this totally legit from my primary card doctor. I was about to give up when a google search led me to methadone. I decided what the hell and made an appointment last week having no idea what to expect. I figured they would tell me the same thing "can't take methadone and xanax don't let the door hit you on the way out." To my surprise they were very accommodating. Now I realize any business trying to make money will be overly accommodating at times but I'm sure they have extra tight regulations dealing with highly controlled substances.

I had my initial consultation on Tuesday and had my first dose later that day (30mg). There was a blood screen, urine test and prescription check (including about 50 papers to sign). I was given a counselor who I can call any day up to a certain time. There is a flat price each time I come in and they seem to have it all organized pretty well. Each day since Tuesday I have gone back and taken my dose and left. I'm not going to fully get into the difference between methadone and suboxone in this post as that is a very large separate post. The good news is that I have been halving my kratom use each day and tomorrow will be back to NO kratom. I can't stress enough how big a deal this is, I was spending $30-50 a DAY on kratom and probably taking up to 80 pills a day (or various strengths its hard to compare apples to apples with kratom pills as there are extracts and different strands).

One thing about methadone is the incredibly long lasting effort of the drug. Beyond LSD (which I hated and will never do again) methadone is the longest acting drug I have ever used. On a typical day I will swing by the methadone clinic around 7am-9am and I will still be feeling the methadone 12 hours later which is why it is crucial to get on a dosage that is right for you. I am still new to this so I am still adjusting my dose, I will report back next week on how things are going.

Thanks for everyone's help


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:47 pm 
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Hello day by day,

Wow you have made some changes over the past few months. It seems like you are in a better place now that you are on a regular schedule with methadone.

There are many people that really benefit from Methadone. Before Suboxone, us addicts really didn't have much of a choice except methadone. That was all we had to combat cravings and fight off this monster of a disease we have.

And the good news is you can switch back to suboxone, if you are on a low dose of methadone fairly easy. .. or stay on methadone. your choice. whatever works best for you.

Good luck with your journey


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:15 am 
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Hello Doing it Day by day.

I have to say what an amazing thread. I just read the entire thing. You bring up a lot of good points about life that we addicts live. The guilt, frustration with using, why we can't stop, etc. I see a lot of things in your thread that I can identify with. The last 6 months of my using I used Kratom as a substitute when I was out of my pain pills. I would burn thru my monthly pain pill script in about 4-5 days and then I would take kratom to manage the withdrawals until the next month rolled around and I would get my next pain pill script. Like you my use and the expense went up and up. As addicts we have an insatiable need for more and more. I got tired of the life I was leading. I have been on suboxone now 8 weeks and for the most part it has completely removed my obsession with pain pills and kratom. I have put myself in some situations where pain pills were close by but I hung in there and haven't used. I would highly suggest that you drop the kratom completely. I don't think you will miss it being on the methadone. Best of luck and keep posting on your journey.

Brett


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:24 pm 
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Thank you for the replies. I don't normally set New Year's resolutions because if something is that important to you it shouldn't wait until the end of the year but I listed "quit kratom!" as my only resolution the last 2 years. I started my methadone treatment last Tuesday (August 16th) and have been tapering up. They start you on a pretty low dose and then they see how you are doing and then move you up to the max they set for you. I honestly was surprised how quick and easy the entire process was. Unlike the suboxone where you visit your doctor or NP every 3-6 months and walk away with scripts you have to build up the trust at the methadone clinic. There are random drug tests which you don't know when they are coming and you have to turn in all your other class 2-4 controlled substances prescriptions. They actually have the process down to a science. Each day I go in I pay $11.00 cash or credit card. I can bet there are some people that say that is a ton of money and they are right, but to me it's all relative.

At the worst of my kratom addiction (2 weeks ago actually) my routing was the following:
Each day
1st kratom dose around 9am (16-20 Maeng Da pills) approx cost $20
2nd kratom dose around 1pm (15 Malay special reserve pills) approx cost $12.95
3rd kratom dose around 5-6pm (2 OPMS gold pills) approx cost $20
4th kratom dose around 7-8pm (10 red vein and 10 green vein kratom) approx cost $10
Average cost a day: $62.95

This all started with a 5 pill a day habit. Over the months I kept adding more pills at higher doses. I was scared to death that I would next add a 5th dose. Of course when money got tight I had to stop the OPMS gold and the malay special and replace with just regular maeng da but still at minimum was spending $30-40 a day. So in 2 weeks I have gone from $40-63/day to $11/day and I already feel SO much better. It is going to take some time but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel (as long as it's not a train).

My plan is so stay on the methadone as long as possible until I have about 2-3 months with no kratom. The hardest thing right now is that the kratom was giving me so much energy. That was one of my favorite things about kratom, it was to me more similar to an Oxycodone high where it would give a burst of energy as well as a calming sense that everything was going to be ok. I got so much stuff done when I was on Oxy or kratom. I organized closets, worked out 4-5 times a week, cable tied everything in my entertainment system, filed all my paperwork, wrote articles for my job, even had all my bills organized on my computer and redid all my online passwords. The methadone is a VERY long lasting drug, I honestly believe i can still feel its affects 18 hours after taking my morning dose. I am struggling hard to stay awake. I will most likely drop my dose down in another week to try and get some energy back. I have been sleeping a TON.

Im tired and im signing out for tonight.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:10 am 
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I just wanted to comment on something u said about unlike suboxone and seeing ur dr every 3 to 6 months and walking away with a script. There's not a lot of doctors that prescribe buprenorphine that will let u get away with that either. I'm sure there's a few but that's by no means typical. My doctors office starts out once a week for 3 months, then every two weeks for 3 months and then u get to go monthly. I've been there over 4 yrs and never go more than a month. We have to go to required suboxone meetings and get urine screens every time u attend a meeting, see ur dr and get a refill. It's nothing to have several drug screens a month. It's a pretty strict atmosphere and I'm very thankful for that. Now I know not all sub doctors are that strict but it's pretty rare to go only 3 to 6 months. I just wanted to clarify that so u wouldn't think all doctors are like that. I think in the beginning of treatment, there should be a stricter type of environment too....that's just my opinion though.


I'm glad ur happy and things are working out.

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