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 Post subject: why are we angry?????
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:27 pm 
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wow, i could type a book! most sub users are angry because they were lied to by their dr.s who either knew nothing about addiction and sub or they were just too greedy to tell us the pitfalls of sub. many dr.s don't even tell people that sub is an addictive opiate! they say we can jump off 2mg with NO withdrawals and blame our side effects on anything but sub. when we are very sick after jumping--well WE did something wrong. i believe alot of dr.s were lied to by reckitt and when sub goes generic this fall--i bet all kinds of new info will come out. this drug can destroy your life, no motivation, isolating, no energy, headaches and many other physical side effects but i think the mental side effects are worse, for me anyway. i am on day 8 off sub and i tapered for a whole year. i have been sooo sick this week--this withdrawal has been just as bad as any other opiate! keeping people on this drug for years is just wrong --it doesn't "heal" your brain, that is BS! sub is great for a very short detox--under medical supervision. i am not the only person that feels this way! there are hundreds of people who feel duped by their sub dr.s. our brains have not healed on sub and the withdrawals/paws are just as severe as any opiate only with sub the paws go on and on and on for months--depends on how long you took the wonder drug. i didn't do any research into sub before i started it, just trusted my dr. BAD idea! anyone thinking about going on sub--read everything you can first--be informed because the odds of getting an untruthful dr. are very high!!


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 Post subject: Why the anger
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 4:07 pm 
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I do agree about the doctors being greedy. I guess i am one of the lucky ones. I have had no problems with suboxone. I took 8 mg a day and sometimes i would take an extra one because the dose the doctor told me to take was 16mg and i did try it but it was too much for me. I hope you find a doctor that cares about you instead of one that cares about what he is keeping at home and having to make alot of money to keep it. Its kind of funny though. we are addicted to opiates and they are addicted to money.


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 Post subject: Re: Why the anger
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 5:02 pm 
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alisak wrote:
I do agree about the doctors being greedy. I guess i am one of the lucky ones. I have had no problems with suboxone. I took 8 mg a day and sometimes i would take an extra one because the dose the doctor told me to take was 16mg and i did try it but it was too much for me. I hope you find a doctor that cares about you instead of one that cares about what he is keeping at home and having to make alot of money to keep it. Its kind of funny though. we are addicted to opiates and they are addicted to money.


With all due respect, there's nothing even remotely close to being "funny" about the predicament opiate addicts find themselves in (when contemplating Subutex or Suboxone) It's an absolute travesty that so many patients are told by their M.D. that "based on my examination, Sub treatment is indicated."

Sub should be considered as a LAST RESORT. I'm not angry so much as I am concerned about what the future holds for Sub patients.

Steve


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 5:53 pm 
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UMMM. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE IF SUBOXONE WAS NOT THERE FOR YA. I AM A ADDICT TOO AND I HAVE BEEN THRU A FEW W/D'S BEFORE EVEN HEARING ABOUT SUBOXONE. I NEVER MADE IT..... ALWAYS BACK TO THE SAME OLD THING. I WENT THRU HELL TO GET OFF SUBOXONE TOO. IF ANYTHING THAT EXPERIENCE WILL MOTIVATE ME TO THINK BEFORE A LIE TO A DR AGAIN OR GET LIL SOMETING OFF THE STREET. I AM FOREVER GRATFULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL FOR SUBOXONE.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 6:50 pm 
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Wow can't wait for Dr. Junig to read this I think he's only written about a hundred times how doctors get paid the same regardless of what type of therapy they prescripe for opiate addicts be that antagonist maintenance, meetings, or Suboxone maintenance. It sucks that Suboxone hasn't been as life altering for you as it has for me and if the side effects are that bad maybe it would be a good idea to stop the Sub treatment. I know I try and find out a little bit about a medication before I ingest it though, the pamphlet that comes with Suboxone prescriptions even have a pretty detailed explaination. Realizing Suboxone (buprenorphine) is an opiate I think would have been pretty self explanatory and realizing it wouldn't be all sunshine and rainbows tapering off again should probably been pretty self explanatory. I know though for me the side effects all dissapeared within the first couple days and I feel as normal (if not more normal) than what I think I felt like before I started using opiates. The best part I've got to say is how I can go whole days without even thinking about using! Not one single thought most of the time, it's been truly remarkable. I've tried both 12-step programs and Suboxone and in my experience Suboxone is so much easier. Many times even after going to a meeting, doing step work, or service work I'd come home and still be thinking about using (although usually not as bad as before the meeting). I really do hope you guys find something that works and keeps you clean as in my experience relapses always got worse :( and I always ended up using more each time. I'm really not sure why so many people get so angry about Suboxone, the only theory I have is that maybe they see how relatively easy recovery is for those that it works for. I remember one of the times I was detoxxing in a treatment center and since I'd decided to go the abstinence based recovery route I rode out the withdrawals while others who decided on Suboxone seemed genuinely happy. They smiled alot, started eating food, and could actually sit comfortably in a chair through the counseling they offered us. I was really jealous but I'm glad I eventually changed my mind and gave it a shot after another relapse. Over 2 and 1/2 years later and still enjoying another chance at life.

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 7:08 pm 
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I HAVE STOPPED SUBOXONE AND I GO TO MEETINGS. I WAS JUST SPEAKINGOF MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.. IF IT DOES NOT APPLY LET IT FLY


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 8:18 pm 
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I wanted to further add that I'm not sure why anyone would think Suboxone would help "heal your brain" but that's just silly. What it has done for me though is to help me stop chasing tolerance. The important difference about buprenorphine that makes it such an ideal treatment for opiate addiction is the ceiling effect (after about 4mg from my understanding and experience taking more doesn't have increased effect) also there is the added bonus of the blockade that makes taking other opiates pointless as there won't be any high. Implying that it's addictive has also proved untrue in my case and is really just a silly statement. Addictive drugs in my experience are those that make you want to take more and more, buprenorphine on the other hand would literally be the worst opiate to try and abuse as you'd have to stop taking it for days to lower your tolerance to the point where it would actually make you feel high while you go through withdrawals the entire time. Taking more buprenorphine than reccomended above the ceiling effect is just a waste of money. I'm really sorry that some are upset about a medication that has saved my life and thousands of others. To spread lies however is really over the line. This really is life and death and the sooner we all realize that the better......

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 Post subject: I agree
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 8:37 pm 
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Great post Kellibear. I agree with all of what you said. It really breaks my heart how many people I know who are in absolute agony, trying to get off this drug. A week or two of withdrawal, which is what happens when people quit drugs like oxys or heroin - is tolerable. Horribly unpleasant, but tolerable.

With sub, the MONTHS of withdrawals a maintenance person will suffer - even with the best planned taper...it's enough to break a person's spirit.

I read an article in a peer reviewed medical journal, from before sub was considered for addiction 'treatment', in which they were studying it for pain management, and comparing it to other opiates.

They found that 2 mg of sub is closely equivalent to 30 mg of methadone. For those who don't know 30 mg of methadone is quite a bit - and NO doctor would EVER tell a maintenance patient to quit cold turkey from 30 mg of methadone. So I am dumbfounded to hear the many doctors say people on sub maintenance can simply quit at 2 to 4 mg with no problems!! That's like telling someone they can painlessly quit 30 to 60 mg of methadone with no problems!!! Insanity!

So I feel profoundly bad for the many people who follow their doctor's orders, and jump off at 2 to 4 mg! I've heard of several people visiting ER's, or repeatedly visiting their doctor and ordering hosts of tests. Because they don't realize they're suffering crushing withdrawals (because their sub doc never informed them), and they think they must have some serious disease, or are losing their mind!

The usage protocols for sub tend to be vastly different in the EU, from those in the US. And, in general, EU health care policy tends to be more progressive, more protective of the patient, and FAR less corrupt, than in the US. Like you mentioned Kelli, Sub is a great detox tool, and with just three or four days use, can ease someone off a nasty, say, heroin habit.

But due to the serious health risks associated with long term sub use, it should NEVER be used as a maintenance drug. I'm acquainted with a very bright European toxicologist - who's on the cutting edge of addiction research there, and he is APPALLED at the way sub is prescribed in the US. The insane doses, for unconscionable lengths of time.

Some of the VERY common side effects of long term sub use: anhedonia, erectile disfunction / impotence in men related to negligible testosterone levels, amenorrhea in women, and loss of libido for both, social isolation, loss of motivation, depression, anxiety and irritability. All directly related to sub.

When a powerful, long acting opiate like sub is taken on a long-term basis, the brain makes adaptations that are quite profound and difficult to reverse. It's own natural 'opiate' system - which is very complex and subtle chemically, and is vital to human behavior and our motivation and reward systems - virtually shuts down. The natural reward system is crucial to the survival of humans as a species, and is a delicate, supremely important balanced system. It is what makes us find things like eating and having sex pleasurable, and reinforces the desire to do such things again.

So when that entire endogenous opiate system is canceled out, and replaced by Sub, a VERY strong opiate, and in HUGE volumes, profound changes in the brain begin to occur. And, at this point, there is not a lot of literature out there about this kind of high-dose, long term use. US patients are literally Reckitt guinea pigs. Lining the exec's pockets.

But the story I've seen countless times is unvaryingly this: someone is put on Sub - and they feel FANTASTIC!! Because they are, in fact, high as a kite. So, of course their depression and anxiety are lifted. They have amazing amounts of energy they've never had before. Often, their life is in shambles because of their drug of choice. So, while in superman mode on sub, they are often able to put in extra hours at work, fix their house, get new friends. Actually, funnily enough - a lot of engagements occur in this Sub 'honeymoon' period.

But then, unvaryingly, as the brain makes it's adjustments, the honeymoon comes to a sad end. Depression comes on, along with fatigue. The person starts to realize they have no motivation to do anything any more. They begin to isolate, even from family. Even from their own children! The sub is no longer making them feel 'well', but they are now deeply addicted - and cannot quit without months to years of suffering through withdrawals and the long after-effects.

And, sadly, most of these people don't understand what's happening and are told it's THEIR fault! When, in fact, it is simply a biological reaction to long term Sub use.

Every single person I've ever encountered who sings the praises of Sub maintenance either:

1) Is in their first few months/years of use - in the 'honeymoon' stage; or

2) Is a sub doctor, financially benefiting from having their entire patient list composed of people they've gotten hooked on one of the most powerful opiates in existence - who can never 'fire' them, for fear of suffering one of the worst detoxes known to man.

It is a true tragedy. And a travesty of the US medical system. I believe the tenet of 'First do no harm,' is supposed to be number one with US doctors. Unfortunately, doctors who prescribe this drug incorrectly and recklessly are harming thousands. And the numbers are still rising...

It's heartbreaking. And I pray for those out there - who don't understand what's happening to them, and are told it's their fault, or that it's 'all in their head.'

Please, anyone considering this drug - NEVER use it for more than a quick taper. If you get hooked, you'll be in the struggle of your life. Read everything you can online. Research, research! And take a great pause before signing yourself or a loved one up for this hell.

Why am I so mad? Because simple greed is responsible for ruining lives. Sub is generally NOT used this way in Europe people! Ask yourself why. Based on the above, it's not hard to understand.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 9:00 pm 
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well I agree with some of the things you said but there are people out there that were well informed and want to have a sober life being happy joyous and free. I was on suboxone for nine months. I would say my detox was hell too. I would say that it was the worst experience in my life but that experience, strength , and hope I believe for myself will be a benifit to my sobriety. Not everyone is misinformed and mislead and have made it with suboxone.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 9:44 pm 
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Hey doc, I think you figured out what motivates people to post! I'll post my thinking about why there is so much anger later, but it'll take some time to write.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 10:03 pm 
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Excellent, excellent post MP!!!!

The other thing I will add to what makes me angry is the very notion that I am angry. Just because I choose to speak out against a drug doesn't make me angry. Dissatisfied with the results, but not necessarily angry. I just don't understand why some people are so hesitant to hear the less than desirable results of this "wonderdrug". Sure, it can buy your life back and help get you out of the cycle of addiction, but that does not mean that it comes for free. You will have to pay your dues eventually.
Another thing I will add is that I read Dr. Junigs post on his blog about the 7 years guy. I have to disagree with him. My first run with addiction was with IV morphine...a couplea hundred mg/day or so, for about 6 months. I quit cold turkey. Very long week and a half. My second run with addiction was IV Oxycontin, same dosage as morphine give or take 100mg, for about a year. Another long week and a half kick. Third time was the charm. 2 Years heavy Oxy and Morphine abuse followed by suboxone treatment. The withdrawals weren't as bad...I will give you that...but the acutes lasted about a month, followed by about 5 months of depression, lethargy, restlessness, mood swings....stuff that would have lasted about 3 weeks TOPS coming off of the short acting opiates. So don't give me the whole "its your initial addiciton spiel" as I have kicked enough to know the difference.
Yes, there are dues to pay for taking the suboxone route. But am I angry about it. No, I made it out about a year ago. It was a very long year, but I feel great today. And if there is anything about suboxone that made me want to quit the addiction then it was the long, never ending agony of W/Ds and PAWS.

I will add that I think there is a LOT of sugar coating of this specific medication. Perhaps its to keep it out of the clinic situation that methadone belongs. Perhaps Reckitt stands to gain a lot of money by targeting every addict out there with fairy tale pamphlets and over hype about how great suboxone is. Being that it is a patented drug (till this fall) it seems that there is very little research coming out about Subox that isn't Reckitt controlled. Since the drug was only introduced back in the early part of this millennia there is also a shortage of information regarding the of long term use of sub and the effects of long term use on the brain. Perhaps subox is a step up in safety and comfort from methadone, but that doesn't negate the fact that this drug may contain less than desirable traits. I would have had a much more productive year if I wouldn't have gone on suboxone. But, let's face it, I went on suboxone because I didn't want to stop taking drugs...I just wanted to stop paying out the a** for them. I'm just happy that I could afford about 6 months of nothingness, else, I might not have ever gotten free........


Last edited by Opidont on Mon May 18, 2009 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 10:03 pm 
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1. you encourage others to research when you obviously don't have even a basic understanding of how opiate tolerance works someone will have the same tolerance to buprenorphine after a few days as they would after a few years (there could be more of a pyschological dependance after longer periods of time I would guess)
2. after over 2 years I'm still waiting for the "change" to occur I still feel the exact same as I did a few days after starting Suboxone again I think you just don't understand tolerance
3. any maintenance Suboxone patient will tell you they don't feel "high as a kite" instead I and others I know on Suboxone feel normal
4. I think the whole point of this part of the forum was to guess why others are so angry about Suboxone and not why your angry about Suboxone
5. again dr.s make the same prescribing Suboxone as they would any other form of treatment for opiate dependance and many dr.s have huge waiting lists for Suboxone treatment if anything they could make more money getting current patients off and have someone else start and pay the initial fees for induction and daily and weekly appointments
6. you honestly think the better alternative to Suboxone is using? or abstinence based 12-step programs that can work for a few people but have usually only between 5-10% of addicts that don't use within the first year of treatment?
7. your entitled to your opinions but trying to convey them as fact is very misleading
8. Suboxone remains remains one of the few treatment options with low relapse rates I would be happy to have any of your supposed side effects of longterm Suboxone treatment over death :lol: (even though I'm yet to experience any of them)
9. in the future you might consider having some supporting evidence for your "facts" when documented scientific research (which have been proven through testing) shows a very different picture than you would have us believe. If we want to go on your "facts" flying spaghetti monsters might as well be real. If a widely used medication was found to cause significant problems by a toxicologist don't you think it would be all over the news? Or wait is the media in on this conspiricy as well? There's just no reason to your argument :cry: Again saying your toxicologist friend is on the "cutting edge" doesn't make it any more real than flying spaghetti monsters.
10. the "insanely high doses" you talk about actually seem pretty standard from what I've read and again because of the ceiling effect it's my understanding that taking anything over around 4mg of buprenorphine isn't going to have any additional effect and it's just to ensure the person stays above the 4mg ceiling over a 24 hour period
11. I'm yet to experience isolating since starting Suboxone I will say however I did isolate when I was still using!
12. your opiate receptors would be just as naturally cancelled out with a pure antagonist like naltrexone or nalaxone and I've met several people who've taken them for extended periods of time and seem to function pretty normally now.
13. if anyone had a tolerance lower than about 30 mg's of methadone was put on Suboxone they might feel high but because of the long half-life they quickly build tolerance to where after a few days they no longer feel high from Suboxone. I can tell you with 100% certainty that if Suboxone made me feel high there's no way a 30 day script would last me 30 days.
14. Europe and the U.S. have a pretty cordial relationship on the whole it doesn't make any sense that important medical information would be witheld from the U.S.

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 10:05 pm 
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Jamez your House picture is badass!
sorry had to tell you how cool it is won't post anything else here tonight I promise

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 10:23 pm 
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Matt2 wrote:
14. Europe and the U.S. have a pretty cordial relationship on the whole it doesn't make any sense that important medical information would be witheld from the U.S.


Europe operates under different government and regulations. Also, Buprenex has been available in Europe for much longer than than in the States. I could go off on a whole rant about the FDA and the pharmaceutical companies over hyping their product and media blocking any negative propaganda...but, eh...why waste space. (Vioxx)
Also, tolerance builds from down regulating of the bodies natural endophine receptors. Sure, after a few days they go dormant and tolerance start...but after long term use they become so naturally dormant that it takes more time for them to learn to fire back up. Hence, the more the dose AND the longer the use, the worse and longer the W/Ds. Suboxone is milder because it doesn't activate all of the opiate receptors of the brain. The question is still out, though, as to whether they actually damage the receptors (like methadone) on a molecular/amino level that could cause them to heal slower. Also, due the long halflife of Subox, it also raises questions about whether the drug actually is able to store itself in the body for a long time, thus causing prolonged symptoms of W/D.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 10:33 pm 
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Matt2 wrote:
someone will have the same tolerance to buprenorphine after a few days as they would after a few years


Ha ha! That's a joke, right?

If not, please read more about the science of opiate addiction. You will see there is a vast difference in the brain's reaction / adaptation to using an opiate for a few days, versus a few years. If you have any questions, let me know. I can point you to some articles, reading material.

Couple years on sub, huh? Good luck! And I genuinely mean that. I really hope it'll be easy for you to get off it when you find it's not working for you very well anymore. There's a preponderance of evidence that it won't be. But still, I never wish the pain involved in getting off sub maintenance on anyone.

I know - it's scary to hear. But better to know the truth than to be in the dark when going through the hells that sub maintenance can bring.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 1:47 am 
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Matt2: Like the house? I have another one you might like:

Image

Speaking of House, did you ever see the one where he was on Suboxone? They showed him vomiting in a toilet and he said "Whoever invented Buprenorphine for opiate withdrawal should have their eyes gouged out".


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 6:42 pm 
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Haha yeah I remember that one it's always been one of the few shows I watch. I shouldn't have engaged in an argument like that I know better I was just upset by the scare tactics that are so often used.

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 7:26 pm 
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Arguing your point is a good thing.

Yeah, I worry that the scare tactics will end up scaring an addict away because 'its worse to get off of'. Is it worse? There are so many factors involved besides withdrawal you know?


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 7:51 pm 
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I hear ya, my thing is I've never understood why anyone would think it's a good idea to treat a life long illness with short term treatment. Your more than likely going to be right where you started before it's not like your going to be able to forget about the drug of abuse.

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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 4:47 am 
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Why is everything scare tactics? Why is everything hate? I have to be honest, I have been waiting with anticipation for the Dr. to answer, as he has totally went out of his way to shoot me down on YouTube. I merely answered him based on my experiences and tried to keep it as objective as possible, but he shot me down and deleted my comment, and called me angry. Eh well, I was honestly waiting on it to happen again. An irritation, but not...necessarily anger......

Okay, back to the "scare tactics".......Are an addition of withdrawals and side effects not mentioned in the pamphlets, but rather in the community be considered "scare tactics". Seriously? Would it? Is it sooooo bad to admit that Suboxone is a DRUG created by HUMANS and therefore it isn't perfect. That, as a drug created by humans, it may cause many side effects, and even some not yet discovered by medicine; not even to mention to be recorded in scientific journals given its relatively new nature?\

People merely reporting their less than negative reports of their experiences are now "scare tactics." The fallacy in this argument astounds me to the point of, once again, being fearful for the education of.....I guess (since I can only assume where you are from) this....world? Ahem....[cough, cough].

Alls I am saying is that suboxone maintenance isn't an easy thing to get out of, and I say this from MY EXPERIENCE. I AM NOT saying NOT TO get on suboxone, but rather consider every aspect about it. I am saying that there are many doctors and pharmaceutical reps that have nothing but positive to preach about this drug, and to have some skepticism in what you hear. I am saying that a lack of skepticism (on his part) is what makes me seriously questionable about this doc. (the one that runs this site...Is honesty a crime?) I have had many docs in my day declare something as gospel that turns up being entirely opinion and later discredited.

I beg of the members of this site to be critical of all data. Determine all truths for yourselves and DO NOT take a mention of a degree without a grain of salt. Research information for yourselves and do not seek half truths. Seriously, many doctors are idiots....MANY! No intention of including Dr. Junig, as I am very certain that he is an excellent and concerning doctor.

But, again, I address that any negative comments about Suboxone that I make aren't scare tactics. I do not wish those whom are best off on Sub. to change their minds about it. I don't want anybody other than those that shouldn't be on maintenance with this drug (anyone?) to refuse it...I am just saying that it is not perfect and that there are probably many side effects not reported (yet) by Reckitt.
I am saying that this is NOT the perfect drug......and that I wish that many side effects I have seen personally and have witnessed many members of the online community, both before and after me, have also seen to be reported in the scientific community and to be taken seriously. As both a warning both doctors and patients when it comes to prescribing Buprenorphine for long term use. As most reports of this nature seem to be ignored or dismissed.


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