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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:41 pm 
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Empi, you are free to discuss your experiences on Suboxone, positive or negative.

You are not free to state that people on Sub are not in real recovery, or are not truly healing their lives, or that Suboxone is just another kind of addiction, on this particular forum.

If you want to post about your personal experiences, that is ok. Please do not debate the merit of suboxone as a treatment for addiction though, as that is not what this forum is about.

There is a difference between saying: My suboxone doctor was an ill informed idiot and I had a hard time with withdrawals, and saying that most everyone on Suboxone has an idiotic, uninformed doctor and will have a hard time with withdrawals.

And for what it's worth, I know you're from the Subsux forum and that you all came over here with the intention of stirring shit up, so while you might not have flamed anyone, you most certainly are trolling.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:21 am 
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Yeah, what she said!

Incedentally, I've never seen a 'oxysux', or 'heroinsux' forum. Maybe we should start one, and bitch about oxy and heroin. "My pain doctor was scamming me out of money by giving me oxycodone! THAT BASTARD!!" thats something you'll NEVER hear, although pain management is usually 2-3x more expensive than sub treatment, and a pain doctor has no limit on patients, and they force you to do barbaric injections for 1000's of dollars to keep you on meds. Of course, the suboxone doctors are just a 'legal dealer' raking it in with their 100 patients. If they limited sub to 10 days, they'd bitch about that too. Bitch Bitch Bitch. boo hoo boo hoo.

I went through sub withdrawal.. Was I angry? Not really. Whos fault was it? Me, my doctor, suboxone, oxycodone, my pancreas, YES, MY PANCREAS!! I HATE YOU PANCREAS!!!!!!! What kind of God puts nerves in a pancreas?!

I saw some members on subsux with 3000 posts.. 3000 POSTS?! how much can you really bitch about suboxone? 3000 times? I can't even bitch about my job 3000 times. Jeez, get over it. Go outside, see the world, smell the air you know?

I once found a forum where people were bitching about Versed... Versed is a benzo used to block memory before surgery, and relax you. They were saying 'My doctor robbed me of my memory'! Oh come on! Do you want to remember a surgical procedure?!

The fact is, human beings love to piss, moan and complain. Words flow much better when you're angry and upset.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:57 am 
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Ah, that was great Jamez got a really good chuckle out of that :lol: ty

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:23 pm 
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OMG...LOLZ!!1!1!!!1!!!

James you crack me up. Logic, for the win!

Where's the forum about how much ACTUAL drug dealers suck? My doctor has never made me wait around all day like my dealer used to.

I also like the way the subsuxers pretend like there are no stories of successful tapers on the internet. The founders of that forum were all disgruntled members of Addiction Recovery Survivors (the NAABT forum), which has many positive Sub stories. But they are all liars funded by the drug company I guess.

Better go take my Sarcasma!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:06 pm 
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Look, I'll toss in my 2c here.

My best friend is 32 years old. He has had a heroin habit for 12 long years. He is on some 100mg of methadone and 2pkts of heroin a day. That's every day for YEARS. While he still somehow manages to keep a job and family together, I dare anyone tell me with a straight face that he wouldn't be better off on suboxone. Yet, he's heared so many bad things about the stuff that he wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. For my friend here and people like him, Suboxone would do wonders. If anything it is MUCH less expensive than a heroin habit. Even more importantly though, it would allow him to stop calling himself a junkie, and start the real road towards recovery. Recovery isn't possible with heroin in your system, but it IS possible with Suboxone.

With Suboxone, you are physically addicted to a drug. You need it to function. But your life does not revolve around it. Can you say the same about short acting opiates? I'ma punch you if you do.

Some people would really benefit from a long term maintenance with Suboxone. We aren't talking about the guy who did vicks for a year or two, and then went on suboxone. We're talking about people who's choice is either heroin for life, or suboxone for life. How can anyone claim that they'd rather be on heroin AND methadone for life, rather than on sub? Please.

You know how stupid some people are? It's like forget they used to use drugs before Suboxone. "I would be clean right now if it wasn't for this damn Suboxone!" No you idiot, you'd still be using your DOC, and much worse for wear.


EDIT: Also, in reply to Rodger.... if Suboxone is really that bad, you can just stop taking it RIGHT NOW and switch to heroin or whatever else you were on before taking it. What the hell is keeping you from doing that???? Please go back on heroin, then maybe you could come back again and tell us how better your life is without Suboxone.

You can't feel anger while on Suboxone? Really? Your post actually made me mad. Look at his #2 people, he said his doctor shouldn't have put him in withdrawals to start with... I REALLY hope he doesn't do that next time. You deserve it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:08 am 
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I was wondering what happen to this Rodger guy? Did he just post and run? I would like to see how the slower taper went?

Rodger, are you still here? I am interested in how your taper is going.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:37 pm 
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Rodger got himself banned. I'd rather not say why


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 Post subject: angry???
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:51 am 
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I have to agree with the DR. The fact that you can type on your computer tells us that your wds aren't anything like they would've been without the sub. I don't know what you have detoxed from before.Perhaps you have never been in full blown wds.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:55 am 
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+1 :!: good response IMO.




Matt2 wrote:
1. you encourage others to research when you obviously don't have even a basic understanding of how opiate tolerance works someone will have the same tolerance to buprenorphine after a few days as they would after a few years (there could be more of a pyschological dependance after longer periods of time I would guess)
2. after over 2 years I'm still waiting for the "change" to occur I still feel the exact same as I did a few days after starting Suboxone again I think you just don't understand tolerance
3. any maintenance Suboxone patient will tell you they don't feel "high as a kite" instead I and others I know on Suboxone feel normal
4. I think the whole point of this part of the forum was to guess why others are so angry about Suboxone and not why your angry about Suboxone
5. again dr.s make the same prescribing Suboxone as they would any other form of treatment for opiate dependance and many dr.s have huge waiting lists for Suboxone treatment if anything they could make more money getting current patients off and have someone else start and pay the initial fees for induction and daily and weekly appointments
6. you honestly think the better alternative to Suboxone is using? or abstinence based 12-step programs that can work for a few people but have usually only between 5-10% of addicts that don't use within the first year of treatment?
7. your entitled to your opinions but trying to convey them as fact is very misleading
8. Suboxone remains remains one of the few treatment options with low relapse rates I would be happy to have any of your supposed side effects of longterm Suboxone treatment over death :lol: (even though I'm yet to experience any of them)
9. in the future you might consider having some supporting evidence for your "facts" when documented scientific research (which have been proven through testing) shows a very different picture than you would have us believe. If we want to go on your "facts" flying spaghetti monsters might as well be real. If a widely used medication was found to cause significant problems by a toxicologist don't you think it would be all over the news? Or wait is the media in on this conspiricy as well? There's just no reason to your argument :cry: Again saying your toxicologist friend is on the "cutting edge" doesn't make it any more real than flying spaghetti monsters.
10. the "insanely high doses" you talk about actually seem pretty standard from what I've read and again because of the ceiling effect it's my understanding that taking anything over around 4mg of buprenorphine isn't going to have any additional effect and it's just to ensure the person stays above the 4mg ceiling over a 24 hour period
11. I'm yet to experience isolating since starting Suboxone I will say however I did isolate when I was still using!
12. your opiate receptors would be just as naturally cancelled out with a pure antagonist like naltrexone or nalaxone and I've met several people who've taken them for extended periods of time and seem to function pretty normally now.
13. if anyone had a tolerance lower than about 30 mg's of methadone was put on Suboxone they might feel high but because of the long half-life they quickly build tolerance to where after a few days they no longer feel high from Suboxone. I can tell you with 100% certainty that if Suboxone made me feel high there's no way a 30 day script would last me 30 days.
14. Europe and the U.S. have a pretty cordial relationship on the whole it doesn't make any sense that important medical information would be witheld from the U.S.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:33 am 
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Thanks CC I was pretty upset when I decided to write that response but I ultimately shouldn't have tried to argue with them, it's not like I was going to change their minds. I think it really is best to try and avoid getting into arguments like that, just ends with some hurt feelings and alot of people upset. If we could have a healthy debate that stayed away from personal attacks and quite frankly rude comments I think it'd be alot of fun :D

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:49 pm 
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A lot of people just see taking Suboxone as an easy way out. There are some people who do not educate themselves about this drug. Some really did think there would not be any withdrawal symptoms involved with Suboxone. Compared to methadone, I would imagine Suboxone is easier to get off. And I hate the way people think we are as high as kites. I felt euphoria from Suboxone for the first two days. After that, it was just life as usual. Back to NORMAL. I've been on Sub for 15 months and have gone from 16mg. down to 4-6mg. One thing most of us can agree on is that many sub doctors start people out on a dose that is way too high. 16mg is probably not indicated with most people's prior habits. I understand the concept of setting a blockade dose, but I think 8mg a day or 4mg x2 a day would block just as well as 16mg and would be much cheaper. It would also help make our tolerances a lot lower. Hopefully as more doctors are becoming more educated about this drug (mind you, a drug that's been in existance since the 70's in Europe, esp. France), changes will be made. JMO.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:15 am 
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Just to clarify anything above 2-4 mgs of buprenorphine creates the same level of opiate tolerance which is somewhere around 30mgs of methadone. The main reason I'd bet that most doctors start with around 16mgs is mainly for fairly strong opiate blockade and the fact that it has the same opiate effect as any other dose of buprenorphine above 2-4mgs. This thread is long dead though so I'm not trying to encourage further posting or imply that my understanding is purely fact but rather I'm just re-stating what I've been told by both my Dr. and what I've read of Dr. Junig's posts. I just wanted help you understand why things are done the way they usually are also it's important to realize there are other things doctors will consider and that their decisions for starting/target dose aren't completely decided by the person's opiate tolerance are hardly arbitrary as anything above 2-4mgs will have literally the exact same opiate effect.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:25 pm 
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I appreciate you clearing that up for me, Matt. Having "cheated" on my suboxone in the past, I did find it easier to get high more quickly on a lower dose than at 16mg. When I was on 16mg, it took about 72 hours to feel anything. On 6mg, I can feel the full effects of fentanyl around 30 hours. It may just be my chemistry, but that is something i have noticed over the course of my treatment.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:08 am 
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Sorry you are having a bad go of it.
I am so grateful for the suboxone because without it I would have really had a hard time. The pain pills I was on had lost the magic years ago and yet I was caught up in any scheme my mind would allow to get more. At the point where all my Dr's were through with writing scripts, pharmacies had quit filling in my name, and money was gone. No treatment available. I was desperate for help.

I have been taking it since June 09 and am beginning to back off. I believe "there are NO free lunches" in life and I will pay the dues. It can't be any worse than the difficulties I was in when Suboxone appeared!! Thank you so much for sharing your experience with coming off Sub. I will do the same when I finish.


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 Post subject: The science doesn't lie
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:09 am 
I don't understand all this anger about Suboxone not magically curing people. Of course it has side effects and of course it doesn't work for everyone - that's true about every prescription drug. If a person is enough of an opiod addict to warrant treatment with a drug like Suboxone, then the changes in the brain produced by chronic opiod use have long since already occured. Suboxone is not going to 'alter' your already addicted brain in a way that will increase withdrawals- that is utter nonsense. Buprenorphine has been studied extensively since the 70's and it is known around the globe as essentially harmless when taken as directed. Seems that people are willing to risk their health and their bodies at any cost when they're getting high, but a headache or lowered libido is just TOO MUCH TO TAKE when they're on Suboxone. The truth is, Suboxone doesn't do anything close to the damage that recreational opiod use does.
I think what it is is people are upset when Suboxone turns out not to be a legal high. You have to be ready and commited to quit abusing drugs for it to really work. It is really disturbing to me how much negativity I get when it is revealed that I take a drug to treat opiod dependence. When I told people before that I had started NA, (all the while getting high), they were so happy for me. Now that I have found Suboxone, which is the only treatment in the 10 years of my using that works, people act like it's an almost shameful thing. It is clear to me that some people, namely those who believe that drug addiction is a moral choice rather than a medical disease, will never believe that a medication can treat opiod abuse. They think it is just a crutchl. I have found that many people who don't approve of Suboxone also feel that taking medication for a mental illness is weak as well. The truth is that opiod dependence is a chronic medical condition just like bipolar disorder or diabetes. You don't quit taking the medicine just because you feel better. More often than not, you should take the treatment that works for the rest of your life.
If it didn't work for you, find something that does. I don't go around spouting off about NA just because it didn't work for me, even though plenty of medical professionals recommended it. The truth is, doctors can be wrong - so I had to take responsibility for my own recovery. :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:23 pm 
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Wow 1st time I read that thread, looked like all the forums like bluelight that I will never go to, EVER. Using = Death/Jail-----Buprenorphine Treatment = Hope/ My life back

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:11 pm 
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MY story? Three years of climbing the opiate ladder from vics, to norcos, to oxy and fent patches. Went to a psych where I heard he was an easy writer for subox. Two years later I've cut my 8mg precripts in half and have found it hard to get to 2mg. Never a word from my Doctor prior to prescribing of the harshness of ADDICTION TO SUBOXONE, about ten minutes of talk time about how I'm doing while he's scribbling out my new fix on his pad, and $85 dollars and seven minutes later they're calling the next dope in to get his fix. Clearly, subox is so much better than chasing down "the man" and was ecstatic about that change--but all it alleviated was the anxiety of running out, finding $80 bucks a day for my ox and the feel I was under medical care where I would end up free from opiates. Well, two years after my first 8mg sub script (200 a month with no insurance for the pills themselves) and wish to hell he had told me the truth. He sees about 8-10 people an hour at 85 bucks a crack--you do the math for an 8-hour day. That's a better payday than my pusher had. Someday, those late-night ads with lawyers asking you to sign up for class action suits for varying malpractice, you'll find all these subox writers explaining themselves in a monstrous class action suit. Wonder if wathrawl from losing your medical license is worse than SEVERAL MONTHS of suboxone withdrawl. So save your bills and receipts folks, they may come in handy.


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 Post subject: Sorry
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:12 pm 
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I am sorry I know I shouldnt even be writing in this thread cause it is beyond "dead". I did read it all and could comment for pages. I wll make a couple general comments to EVERYONE, not anyone specific....

I too only see my excellent sub doc to get my excellent suboxone for only 5 mins or so...very quick, but great doctor.......when I was getting oxy's, percs, fent, dilly's, ect from specialist for back, every time I was in there for only 5 mins, paid $115 per visit no insurance, (I pay $100 per suboxone doc visit now with no insurance) and almost every time to a point he would up the dose or give more potent drug, more addictive. At the end of that bs, when I needed even higher and higher doses, he told me I was too high and either had to stay at dose or come off.....my subox doctor doesnt make me choose between effective dose or other factors....he gives me what works, the way it should be for any drug from doctor.

How are the suboxone doctors who do not want quick patient turnover for more induction prices as opposed to doctors that keep patient on suboxone only making maintainence doctor visit price, "out for the money"? Induction usually about $250 or more, where as regular visit about $100, plus once a month compared to the begining where its 2-3 times a month sometimes......not to mention the fact that usually the doctors who have the patients on long term is for the patient well-being, and not the money.

I'll leave it at that.....best of luck to any and everyone

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 Post subject: why angry?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:36 pm 
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why r people angry about suboxone use...hmmm for starters i am not an opiate addict but my husband is and his addiction has ruined alot in our lives!!!! i am a recovering alcoholic who does a program of RECOVERY... i do not depend on meds to make me better or get me thru pain, anxiety, cravings!!! alcohol withdrawl is the only one a person can DIE from. yet all these opiate addicts can't stand for 1 second to be sick...like the dr. said there are cancer patients who have to deal with incredible pain on a daily basis, along with the fact that they are dying!!!! i know several opiate addicts who did it the "old fashioned way" The just STOPPED!!!! yes the cravings are there and yes the physical symptoms suck....but it also does coming off of alcohol!! and by working a recovery program those cravings will dissipate. and guess what we don't have a magic pill to take it away!!! i have been taught that drinking and using are just a symptom of this disease ...so get down to the roots and causes,,,heal!!! every person i know who are on subs , including my husband sit back and use suboxone as a recovery...sorry doesnt work!!!! u need to deal with life on life's terms!!! not to mention the financial burden it has put on us!!! funny how he (and most junkies) always find a way to pay for their script, but when it comes to bills or what have you...well that falls on the usually codependant!!!! i know the doc of the forum is all for it because he himself is a junkie plain and simple and i'm sorry but from my experience ....junkies are a different breed!!! they use the disease as an excuse..."well i don't have a choice my disease was running my life" well my friend that is why there are programs out there to reduce the voice of the disease. and don't u think it screams sometimes for us alcoholics? also the doc references subs as a way of saving a persons life...again and again and agian....there are other things, whether it be a 12 step program, religion or whatever that will also save ur life without once again being dependent on a pill!!!! and lastly...i don't think opiate addicts have a clue what they do to those they love.....the pain the misery the worry are tremendous and for those who are a significant other of an addict who is also in recovery it jepordizes their recovery. every person i know who is on subs does nothing to change the person that they are...the stay sick and expect life to go back to "normal", and us loved ones should not live in the past!!!! i never wish the experience of living and loving an opiate addict on anyone and until u have u have no room to talk. anything u do say is for personal gain!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:53 am 
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