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 Post subject: Why the anger
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 10:50 am 
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Well I just wanted this to get out here. I really don't think addiction in any form is funny. For the person who is addicted their life is hell, even though when they have their drug it still is hell because the instant gratification is just that instant. If saying that "isnt it funny how we are addicted to opiates and they are addicted to money" was not said to make light of the stiuation of addiction to anything. Our society is so busy these days that rarely do we really see or meet the real person or the person they were meant to be when they were born. I could go on for days writing what my personal opinion is of today world, but that would be too deep of thinking for me an addict and probably give a headache, so If I offended anyone by saying "isnt it funny" I apologize. I want this place to be what i think it was meant to be. A place where you get information and hear others experiences with the drug suboxone. I dont come to this site to debate or be controversal.
I really have gotten some really good information at the time i needed it. My personal opinion is : Suboxone is and can be a life saver for those of us addicts that want it. There is always a good side and a bad side to everything. Its all how YOU look at it that counts.


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 Post subject: Why the anger?
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 2:18 pm 
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Why is the anti-Suboxone crowd so angry? Tell me your 'theory', or your guess. Whether it is toward my youtube videos, this forum, my practice... the anti-sub folks call me a 'greedy pusher' without knowing anything about me! I'm sure many of you have done battle as well. Just what is their problem, anyway?!

[font=Trebuchet] [/font] For approx. two years, I have observed the online battle of Sub Haters and Supporters- and have gotten sucked in to many battles that could never be won because the one thing most people are never willing to try is - a different point of view. I happen to be a supporter of Suboxone. I don't tell anyone it saved my life or it is a miracle drug, but I do tell people that it has helped improve the quality of my life dramatically. This medication will work for some but not for all- there are no absolutes with medication- any intelligent human being would understand that a one size fits all mentality to medication treatment is ridiculous.We are all so unique in our genetic makeup, let alone the series of other factors that come into play when we weigh the success rates of medications.
When someone comes along with a strong opinion about how wrong Suboxone is, my immediate thought is to fight for it's validity.I have learned that it will make no difference because much of the anger and hate about Suboxone comes strictly from people who fuel themselves on tearing down ANYTHING that they don't agree with. I have had bad experiences with a few medications, but I am not spending my time trying to make other people see how terrible those drugs are or how the makers of those drugs are out for a quick buck. They may have worked very well for others, and that is what really matters.
Overall, if you have had a negative experience with Suboxone, tell your story- but don't tell me I am wrong for taking it or that I am not genuine when I say my life is better because it has worked well for me.Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but leave it as opinion- don't give me false truths with phantom research. And for God's sake- when you see someone post about how happy they are with Suboxone, be human enough to just congratulate their decision to work on improving their life instead of pumping the poor soul with your friend's cousin's brother's bad experience.


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 3:44 pm 
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For what it's worth, I got depressed about 6 months into my Sub treatment. It was just like people said on the internets - the honeymoon ended, I had no energy, lethargic, isolating myself, etc.

I lowered my Sub dose at that time and ramped up my self-care practices. Talk therapy, writing, more exercise, better food, and an antidepressant - and I was able to heal my depression. I don't blame Sub for the depression either. I was depressed before I started taking opiates - that was one of the main reasons why I started abusing them in the first place. I'm sure the Sub either helped or masked my depression when I first started treatment, but you can't expect that to last forever unless you address the underlying issues.

The way I look at it, I was going to have to go through withdrawals at some point anyway. At least with Sub, I was able to get my sh*t together first.

And I cannot harp on this enough, but getting exercise is key to everything. I can literally feel my natural endorphins kick in after I work out. It's hard and I never want to do it, especially after a dose reduction, but nothing makes me feel better. It just seems like a smart thing to do if the goal is to get your brain producing it's own endorphins again, right?

I have a question for those who are saying that a week or two of withdrawal from short-acting opiates is better than the longer withdrawal from Sub. Don't short-acting opiates cause PAWS as well? I quit Dilaudid CT and while I made it thru the acute part, I was suicidally depressed after that, so I never made it very long without using again.


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 6:52 pm 
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I am on Suboxone and likely will be long-term. Why are you anti-suboxone's (the angry ones) automatically assuming that we know so little?
An observation: The more you try to defend your "anti" opinions as (undocumented) fact and essentially tell us that after the honeymoon we're going to crash, well, it just seems to make you appear even angrier! And I'm curious about something - If you are no longer taking Suboxone and are solid in recovery, why are you lurking in a forum such as this? A forum that so clearly states time and again that it's for support and NOT for arguing the pros/cons? In doing so it clearly makes you appear intentionally antagonistic.
And yes, I'm intentionally speaking in generalizations and am not referring to any one person.

(Oh, and well said, shelwoy.)


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 Post subject: Re: I agree
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 12:28 pm 
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Empi wrote:
Great post Kellibear. I agree with all of what you said. It really breaks my heart how many people I know who are in absolute agony, trying to get off this drug. A week or two of withdrawal, which is what happens when people quit drugs like oxys or heroin - is tolerable. Horribly unpleasant, but tolerable.

With sub, the MONTHS of withdrawals a maintenance person will suffer - even with the best planned taper...it's enough to break a person's spirit.

I read an article in a peer reviewed medical journal, from before sub was considered for addiction 'treatment', in which they were studying it for pain management, and comparing it to other opiates.

They found that 2 mg of sub is closely equivalent to 30 mg of methadone. For those who don't know 30 mg of methadone is quite a bit - and NO doctor would EVER tell a maintenance patient to quit cold turkey from 30 mg of methadone. So I am dumbfounded to hear the many doctors say people on sub maintenance can simply quit at 2 to 4 mg with no problems!! That's like telling someone they can painlessly quit 30 to 60 mg of methadone with no problems!!! Insanity!

So I feel profoundly bad for the many people who follow their doctor's orders, and jump off at 2 to 4 mg! I've heard of several people visiting ER's, or repeatedly visiting their doctor and ordering hosts of tests. Because they don't realize they're suffering crushing withdrawals (because their sub doc never informed them), and they think they must have some serious disease, or are losing their mind!

The usage protocols for sub tend to be vastly different in the EU, from those in the US. And, in general, EU health care policy tends to be more progressive, more protective of the patient, and FAR less corrupt, than in the US. Like you mentioned Kelli, Sub is a great detox tool, and with just three or four days use, can ease someone off a nasty, say, heroin habit.

But due to the serious health risks associated with long term sub use, it should NEVER be used as a maintenance drug. I'm acquainted with a very bright European toxicologist - who's on the cutting edge of addiction research there, and he is APPALLED at the way sub is prescribed in the US. The insane doses, for unconscionable lengths of time.

Some of the VERY common side effects of long term sub use: anhedonia, erectile disfunction / impotence in men related to negligible testosterone levels, amenorrhea in women, and loss of libido for both, social isolation, loss of motivation, depression, anxiety and irritability. All directly related to sub.

When a powerful, long acting opiate like sub is taken on a long-term basis, the brain makes adaptations that are quite profound and difficult to reverse. It's own natural 'opiate' system - which is very complex and subtle chemically, and is vital to human behavior and our motivation and reward systems - virtually shuts down. The natural reward system is crucial to the survival of humans as a species, and is a delicate, supremely important balanced system. It is what makes us find things like eating and having sex pleasurable, and reinforces the desire to do such things again.

So when that entire endogenous opiate system is canceled out, and replaced by Sub, a VERY strong opiate, and in HUGE volumes, profound changes in the brain begin to occur. And, at this point, there is not a lot of literature out there about this kind of high-dose, long term use. US patients are literally Reckitt guinea pigs. Lining the exec's pockets.

But the story I've seen countless times is unvaryingly this: someone is put on Sub - and they feel FANTASTIC!! Because they are, in fact, high as a kite. So, of course their depression and anxiety are lifted. They have amazing amounts of energy they've never had before. Often, their life is in shambles because of their drug of choice. So, while in superman mode on sub, they are often able to put in extra hours at work, fix their house, get new friends. Actually, funnily enough - a lot of engagements occur in this Sub 'honeymoon' period.

But then, unvaryingly, as the brain makes it's adjustments, the honeymoon comes to a sad end. Depression comes on, along with fatigue. The person starts to realize they have no motivation to do anything any more. They begin to isolate, even from family. Even from their own children! The sub is no longer making them feel 'well', but they are now deeply addicted - and cannot quit without months to years of suffering through withdrawals and the long after-effects.

And, sadly, most of these people don't understand what's happening and are told it's THEIR fault! When, in fact, it is simply a biological reaction to long term Sub use.

Every single person I've ever encountered who sings the praises of Sub maintenance either:

1) Is in their first few months/years of use - in the 'honeymoon' stage; or

2) Is a sub doctor, financially benefiting from having their entire patient list composed of people they've gotten hooked on one of the most powerful opiates in existence - who can never 'fire' them, for fear of suffering one of the worst detoxes known to man.

It is a true tragedy. And a travesty of the US medical system. I believe the tenet of 'First do no harm,' is supposed to be number one with US doctors. Unfortunately, doctors who prescribe this drug incorrectly and recklessly are harming thousands. And the numbers are still rising...

It's heartbreaking. And I pray for those out there - who don't understand what's happening to them, and are told it's their fault, or that it's 'all in their head.'

Please, anyone considering this drug - NEVER use it for more than a quick taper. If you get hooked, you'll be in the struggle of your life. Read everything you can online. Research, research! And take a great pause before signing yourself or a loved one up for this hell.

Why am I so mad? Because simple greed is responsible for ruining lives. Sub is generally NOT used this way in Europe people! Ask yourself why. Based on the above, it's not hard to understand.


Been on it daily for almost 7 years and have been doing fine and certainly don't believe that I am any sort of "high as a kite" as you put it so lovingly. It is my personal belief that the paragraphs above does warrant some merit and the biological harm is more probable than just merely possible but having said that is sure beats the addictive behaviors that people, me included, exhibit while in active addiction. Call me crazy but I am satisfied on my lifetime maintenance program and in no way HIGH all the time.


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 2:18 pm 
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Diary of a Quitter wrote:
For what it's worth, I got depressed about 6 months into my Sub treatment. It was just like people said on the internets - the honeymoon ended, I had no energy, lethargic, isolating myself, etc.

I lowered my Sub dose at that time and ramped up my self-care practices. Talk therapy, writing, more exercise, better food, and an antidepressant - and I was able to heal my depression. I don't blame Sub for the depression either. I was depressed before I started taking opiates - that was one of the main reasons why I started abusing them in the first place. I'm sure the Sub either helped or masked my depression when I first started treatment, but you can't expect that to last forever unless you address the underlying issues.

The way I look at it, I was going to have to go through withdrawals at some point anyway. At least with Sub, I was able to get my sh*t together first.

And I cannot harp on this enough, but getting exercise is key to everything. I can literally feel my natural endorphins kick in after I work out. It's hard and I never want to do it, especially after a dose reduction, but nothing makes me feel better. It just seems like a smart thing to do if the goal is to get your brain producing it's own endorphins again, right?

I have a question for those who are saying that a week or two of withdrawal from short-acting opiates is better than the longer withdrawal from Sub. Don't short-acting opiates cause PAWS as well? I quit Dilaudid CT and while I made it thru the acute part, I was suicidally depressed after that, so I never made it very long without using again.


Hey 'Diary' (your name reminds me of 'Diary of a Madman' by Ozzy Osbourne for some reason!)

Of course agonists cause PAWS. They all do. Sub happens to get blamed for it though because its usually the one thats stopped.


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 4:33 pm 
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Lol, Ozzy. Have you seen him on the new Osbournes show? Crazy.

Diary of a Quitter is the name of my blog; and I guest blog at a few other recovery sites. I'm trying to keep my online identity straight :D

You can call me Allie though! Sounds better than Diary.

Good point about not many people making it to the PAWS stage when quitting full-agonists. I always laugh (bitterly) when the junky in a movie goes through 3 days of crazy dopesickness, then wakes up on the fourth day totally cured! Amazing! If only I could be so lucky...

Also - The "Honeymoon Phase" of recovery is not exclusive to people taking Suboxone. I'm pretty sure it's just a normal phase of recovery, period. Isn't there some saying about a "pink cloud" in the 12-step community? And that it's a normal and necessasary part of recovery to come down from the pink cloud eventually...and have to learn to deal with that? I'm not in a 12 step program, but many of my recovering friends are, and when I went through that phase they all seemed real familiar with it - even though they weren't on Suboxone.

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 Post subject: Re: Why the anger?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 11:32 pm 
shelwoy wrote:
[font=Trebuchet] [/font] For approx. two years, I have observed the online battle of Sub Haters and Supporters- and have gotten sucked in to many battles that could never be won because the one thing most people are never willing to try is - a different point of view.


Actually this is untrue. Virtually all of those you label as "Sub Haters" are opiate addicts who themselves had previously bought into their doctor's BS about how Suboxone would be the wonder drug that ended their addiction and would be nearly painless to taper off of ... when they felt ready. In other words... they used to hold the point of view that you now hold, particularly in their early months and years of Suboxone maintenance ... they were "Sub Lovers" or "Sub Supporters"... often for several years. Most of these people had also touted Suboxone's praises when they believed their addiction was over and the future was sunshine and rainbows. However, time marches on, and as the harsh light of reality slowly, but undeniably, illuminated the fact that the promises their doctors (and the drug manufacturer) had made them were little more than the high quality fertilizer that is dispensed from the hind-quarters of bulls.... they grew dissillusioned, disenchanted.... perhaps even (God forbid) "angry" at the fact they had been misled and at the, in some ways worse, predicament that they then found themselves versus where they were when they started Suboxone.

Some of these people, after suffering through the protracted process of getting off their buprenorphine addiction, are actually miffed enough to want to try to help others avoid a similar fate. Such Suboxone-survivors may even go out of their way to criticize doctors, websites and advertisments that continue to spew the manufacturer-dictated Suboxone party line that had hoodwinked themselves into Suboxone addiction in the first place. This is the reason such people appear on these websites. Unlike the physicians and drug manufacturer promoting this opiate, those who warn of Suboxone's false promises and delayed sufferings have no financial incentive. They are not trying to schedule you for consultations at hundreds of dollars a visit, nor are they trying to get you chemically dependent on a product they know you will need to buy and use daily for many months or years to come. Rather they are trying to warn you that the bridge is out in the road ahead and that they know this because they themselves followed the same road you are on and their car ended up crashed in the ravine.

Perhaps you don't want to hear that....perhaps, as a previous poster (Matt2) had suggested, "the whole point of this forum was to guess why others are so angry about Suboxone" ...NOT to actually hear why from those who are.

Personally, anyone who has been happy with Suboxone therapy and is now clean of all opiates has my admiration and respect. Anyone who is happy and still on Suboxone maintenance has my best wishes that things go smoothly should you choose to eventually get off it and stay stable should you choose to remain on the opiate buprenorphine. Anyone who is considering Suboxone therapy has my warning... to thoroughly investigate both the PROS and CONS of Suboxone maintenance before starting it and to speak to people who have actually gone through the therapy, including both those who've had positive experiences and those who've had negative experiences with the therapy. If after that, an addict chooses Suboxone maintenance as the path for dealing with their opiate addiction... they have my blessing.

Tim

p.s. Yes, long term opiate use can result in Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome [PAWS] after detox from any opiate. The effects of PAWS, however, are experienced much longer when detoxing from an opiate with an extended elimination half-life, like methadone and buprenorphine (the opiate in Suboxone) . This same characteristic that allows those in Opiate Replacement Therapy maintenance to dose once daily, rather than every few hours, is the characteristic that extends PAWS from a matter of weeks for short acting opiates - to a matter of months, often years, for a long acting opiate like the buprenorphine in Suboxone.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 12:07 am 
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Diary of a Quitter wrote:
Lol, Ozzy. Have you seen him on the new Osbournes show? Crazy.

Diary of a Quitter is the name of my blog; and I guest blog at a few other recovery sites. I'm trying to keep my online identity straight :D

You can call me Allie though! Sounds better than Diary.

Good point about not many people making it to the PAWS stage when quitting full-agonists. I always laugh (bitterly) when the junky in a movie goes through 3 days of crazy dopesickness, then wakes up on the fourth day totally cured! Amazing! If only I could be so lucky...

Also - The "Honeymoon Phase" of recovery is not exclusive to people taking Suboxone. I'm pretty sure it's just a normal phase of recovery, period. Isn't there some saying about a "pink cloud" in the 12-step community? And that it's a normal and necessasary part of recovery to come down from the pink cloud eventually...and have to learn to deal with that? I'm not in a 12 step program, but many of my recovering friends are, and when I went through that phase they all seemed real familiar with it - even though they weren't on Suboxone.


Diary of a Quitter Madman (Allie).. This is kind of fun.. Allie's Quitting Diary of a Madman, well Madwoman.. haha

Check out the movie 'Candy'. Its an Australian film with Heath Ledger. They show Heroin withdrawal in there, and they make it out to be pretty bad, probably as bad as Dr. Junig's withdrawal from his stories. I think they dedicate about 20 minutes of the movie just to withdrawal alone.

PAWS is a bitch. Honestly, the withdrawal sucks, but you can get through it. The PAWS I found to be much, much worse than the withdrawal. Years? I doubt that. You hear a lot about withdrawal, but PAWS isn't really mentioned much medically. Just physiological things regarding PAWS is all I've ever found about it (raised BP, pupil size, pulse rate), other than former users talking about it.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 2:54 am 
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PAWS is a bitch...even though it sounds like some place you'd go to adopt a fluffy puppy, it's really the fifth ring of hell. :twisted:

You're right about it not being mentioned much either. I seriously thought I should be feeling better a few weeks after going CT from my DOC. I had no idea about the protracted pain I was in for.

It's like this double whammy because not only are you depressed, anxious, confused, tired, unstable and unable to think straight but you also have no coping skills for dealing with any of that. At least that was my experience. I'd let all my coping tools get rusty as I relied ever more on drugs so once drugs were gone I was worse than useless. I had no ability to deal with emotional pain at all - and there was no way I could just take a few months off of life to get my head together.

I will check out that movie - thanks for the suggestion.

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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 12:51 pm 
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Quote:
Perhaps you don't want to hear that....perhaps, as a previous poster (Matt2) had suggested, "the whole point of this forum was to guess why others are so angry about Suboxone" ...NOT to actually hear why from those who are.


I see nothing wrong with anyone posting their negative experiences, if anything it will help provide better care to those who have experienced problems similar.The reason I say that those who had bad experiences refuse to see a different point of view is because maybe the doctor did make promises he should not have - but that is the doctor's fault- not the drug company.
I am really interested in seeing proof that a website or the manufacturer of this drug promises a "bed of roses" when it comes to taking the drug. I just have not come across this type of literature.Could you guys post some links ??


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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 12:20 am 
Well, I cant say I am angry..... I cant say I feel anything. My son came to me about a month ago. He said "Dad, I love you but really, where are you. I liked you better useing dope off the street, at least then you actually got mad, or happy or anything, your a log floating by on the river".

This really made me think, I should of been hurt or pissed... but all I did was think about it. Well, I guess it could be true that suboxone has taken away my anger but along with it my happiness too. I do know I have to get off of it.

I am in the midst of a slower taper cause the drop off at 2mg was harder then oxy wd. A lot longer and I couldnt deal with it. I caved, chose sub again other then going to the streets for dope. I have so many pill since my sub doc wanted me on very high doses.... like 40mg for the first 4 or 6 months. I could see he was not planning a taper so I began one on my own. I found that 8mg did the same as 40. I had to talk hin into the two mg by a out right lie. I am sure I paid a good bit of his jag car note.

The doc on utube is on 2mg I think I remember him saying.... then I read here that he is not even on sub at all but think everyone should be maintained on sub. Not sure what the true story is and only can read for short spurts then my vision goes. Hopeing that it clears after I do finally get off this dope.

I am dissapointed in the way my sub doc treated me ..... he never told me it was an opiate till I ask. He never planned to wean me off. Hell .... he didnt plan anything except my next months appointment for the script. He never spent more then 10 min with me and that was the intake day... since then I am lucky I get to say hi... he allowed no time for question.

It sounds like this is not the abnormal Doc... I have read at many different sites the same thing. I am sure not all these addicts live nearby??? maybe?

SO...is the good doctor that runs this site on the drug?

What would of been better in my treatment....

1. Informing me that it was an opiate.
2. not put me in wd to start
3 sat with me and togather make a plan of taper
4 give me time to ask questions
5 let me know how hard it is to get off of it
6 not lie to me saying that all his patients jump off at 2mg with out a problem
7 gave me a few option....like maintaine or use it for softer landing of wd
8 telling me to brush after melting every time....
9 telling me how it affect vision
10 telling me that I will feel nothing..... meaning sadness, happiness, anger, any feeling
11 letting me know that I was in such a fog while on the dope.... I can see now just how deep a fog I was in now that I am on just crumbs. I wonder what it will be like once no sub is in my system
12 telling me that I will loose any desire for sex.
13 well could go on and on but..

I want to know if this doctor is on the drug he stands so strongly for? Is he maintaining?

Rodger


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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 9:26 am 
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I was only suggesting that this particular part of the forum was to discuss why the anti-suboxone crowd is so angry. I thought that was pretty obvious from the title, ah well chalk another one up for taking someone's words out of context :lol:

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 Post subject: Sub side effects
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 3:23 pm 
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To the poster above who mentioned his son's dissatisfaction with him on the sub - I'm sorry to say this is a VERY common side effect of sub maintenance. Something about having your opiate receptors plugged 24/7 to the hilt with opiates often changes the way people interact with family and friends (if they have any - isolating from friends after long term sub use is very common). Keep on tapering man - you'll get your personality back and your old feelings for your loved ones too when you're off the sub.

Sub and PAWS - Tim mentioned this above, but it bears repeating. Yes, shorter acting opiates can, of course cause PAWS too. But they are exponentially worse with methadone and sub. This is because, on shorter acting opiates - the levels of external opiate fall off in your system several times a day, every single day - especially when sleeping. At these times - when the levels of Oxy, or heroin, or whatever fall off - our brain is given a 'breather' - a chance to produce some of it's own opiates. The internal (endogenous) opiate system is still 'alive' - just highly compromised by the drug use.

With very long acting opiates like sub and methadone - the levels of the drugs never fall off. At 4 milligrams and above - you've reached a 'saturation' level. Pretty much all of the opiate receptors that can be plugged by the sub are...24/7. The levels never drop, so the brain is never kick started into producing it's own opiates (as it still is daily with, say, heroin use). So, after a few years of Sub (or methadone) use - you're brain's opiate system has been completely shut down - for YEARS!!

There is a big difference - in terms of effect on the brain - between the shorter acting opiates and those that are longer acting. After having been shut off completely for several years - or whatever the duration of the sub 'treatment' is - it takes a LONG TIME for the brain to start to resume its normal functioning. Hence - PAWS is something that strikes Sub and Methadone users at much higher rates, and more severely than SAO users.

And finally - to someone who said you can't treat a long term problem with a quick fix - I agree completely. However - I do not agree that popping a sub under your tongue every day is in any way 'treating' and opiate addiction problem. It is - what it is - continuing a physical and psychological dependence on an opiate. A continuation of the problem.

Rather, I would argue that people with long term addiction problems should be detoxed (with whatever protocol, a short methadone or sub taper, or perhaps a benzo cocktail - different centers use different drugs), and then, once 'clean' - the hard work of therapy, counseling, cognitive-behavioral training, spiritual therapy - whatever works for you - should be begun.

As long as someone is continuing to use opiates - heroin, percodan, suboxone, morphine, methadone - whatever - no true healing can begin.


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 Post subject: Re: I agree
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 3:57 pm 
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CC_Rider wrote:

Been on it daily for almost 7 years and have been doing fine and certainly don't believe that I am any sort of "high as a kite" as you put it so lovingly. It is my personal belief that the paragraphs above does warrant some merit and the biological harm is more probable than just merely possible but having said that is sure beats the addictive behaviors that people, me included, exhibit while in active addiction. Call me crazy but I am satisfied on my lifetime maintenance program and in no way HIGH all the time.


Would you want someone on suboxone flying your plane? Driving your kids to school or caring for them in a day care? Practicing medicine on you or your family?

I wouldn't. And it's not just my opinion - but that of many professional licensing boards - which will not allow people to practice while under the influence of opiates. I know a nurse who can't get her license back until she detoxes off the sub. Her board will not allow nurses to care for patients while their judgment may be impaired by sub.

And, when I was heavily dependent on heroin, after dosing I did not feel high as a kite either. Would you really argue that I wasn't though???

Sub is much more impairing than you may think. A lot of people say they didn't realize how 'out of it' they were until after they detoxed.

And - I guess we can agree to disagree - but I would categorize taking an opiate every single day as a prime example of exhibiting 'addictive behavior' and 'active addiction.'

And I'm guess I'm glad you are satisfied with your lifetime commitment to opiate maintenance. But you may want to do some research (and I'm not so sure how much literature there is with respect to sub - more so for methadone) on the long term effect on the body - in particular the endocrine system. I know premature menopause is a big problem for women in maintenance - which brings the attendant problems of osteoporosis, etc.

And for men (and women too) maintenance very commonly leads to extremely low levels of testosterone. Which has all sorts of effects including loss of libido (very common on sub), impotence, depression and more.

Even if you do want to take this drug for life - you may want to investigate how to combat or at least mitigate some of the long term side effects.

Just food for thought.


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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 7:54 pm 
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Quote:
With very long acting opiates like sub and methadone - the levels of the drugs never fall off. At 4 milligrams and above - you've reached a 'saturation' level. Pretty much all of the opiate receptors that can be plugged by the sub are...24/7. The levels never drop, so the brain is never kick started into producing it's own opiates (as it still is daily with, say, heroin use). So, after a few years of Sub (or methadone) use - you're brain's opiate system has been completely shut down - for YEARS!!


This is only correct to a certain extent. If you taper off Suboxone slowly, then you will be spending a considerable amount of time during Sub treatment when your opiate receptors are NOT completely "plugged." Once you get below 2mgs a day, your brain is going to start making it's own endorphins again. Believe me, I get an endorphin rush when I run - and I also got one when I slammed my finger in the door.

Plenty of people have tapered off Suboxone correctly - s l o w l y - and not suffered protracted PAWS.

Quote:
However - I do not agree that popping a sub under your tongue every day is in any way 'treating' and opiate addiction problem. It is - what it is - continuing a physical and psychological dependence on an opiate. A continuation of the problem.


Quote:
And - I guess we can agree to disagree - but I would categorize taking an opiate every single day as a prime example of exhibiting 'addictive behavior' and 'active addiction.'


Empi, You are right, we can agree to disagree, but statements to this effect are not allowed on this forum. We're trying to create a safe space for people who've chosen Suboxone treatment. Too many people have been shamed off their medication too early by people who say that using Suboxone is addictive behavior or that they are switching one addiction for another.

Quote:
As long as someone is continuing to use opiates - heroin, percodan, suboxone, morphine, methadone - whatever - no true healing can begin.


This statement is complete crap. For many addicts, no true healing EVER begins because they can't stop using long enough to begin the process. It is entirely possible for people on Suboxone to go to therapy, eat right, exercise, go to meetings (SMART has nothing against Suboxone use), find a higher power, get new friends, finish school, get a new job, create new habits, address mental health issues, or whatever else they need to do to heal their lives. To suggest otherwise is insulting and frankly, stupid. What, all the work I've done and things I've accomplished in the past 18 months will just evaporate when the last bit of Suboxone leaves my body? Please.

If you continue to make statements like this one and the ones quoted above, you will be banned.

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You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf.

-Jack Kornfield


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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:37 pm 
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Very much agreed Diary :)

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"If you're going through hell, ....keep going!"
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 Post subject: Re: I agree
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:50 am 
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Empi wrote:
CC_Rider wrote:

Been on it daily for almost 7 years and have been doing fine and certainly don't believe that I am any sort of "high as a kite" as you put it so lovingly. It is my personal belief that the paragraphs above does warrant some merit and the biological harm is more probable than just merely possible but having said that is sure beats the addictive behaviors that people, me included, exhibit while in active addiction. Call me crazy but I am satisfied on my lifetime maintenance program and in no way HIGH all the time.


Would you want someone on suboxone flying your plane? Driving your kids to school or caring for them in a day care? Practicing medicine on you or your family?

I wouldn't. And it's not just my opinion - but that of many professional licensing boards - which will not allow people to practice while under the influence of opiates. I know a nurse who can't get her license back until she detoxes off the sub. Her board will not allow nurses to care for patients while their judgment may be impaired by sub.

And, when I was heavily dependent on heroin, after dosing I did not feel high as a kite either. Would you really argue that I wasn't though???

Sub is much more impairing than you may think. A lot of people say they didn't realize how 'out of it' they were until after they detoxed.

And - I guess we can agree to disagree - but I would categorize taking an opiate every single day as a prime example of exhibiting 'addictive behavior' and 'active addiction.'

And I'm guess I'm glad you are satisfied with your lifetime commitment to opiate maintenance. But you may want to do some research (and I'm not so sure how much literature there is with respect to sub - more so for methadone) on the long term effect on the body - in particular the endocrine system. I know premature menopause is a big problem for women in maintenance - which brings the attendant problems of osteoporosis, etc.

And for men (and women too) maintenance very commonly leads to extremely low levels of testosterone. Which has all sorts of effects including loss of libido (very common on sub), impotence, depression and more.

Even if you do want to take this drug for life - you may want to investigate how to combat or at least mitigate some of the long term side effects.

Just food for thought.


I certainly would. I would trust a person on Suboxone to drive me, my wife and/or my daughter anywhere! I see what your saying though to a point but to have to detox before getting her license back is certainly more of a precaution and a safeguard against possible lawsuits I would have to guess. I have no adverse effects at all or at least that I know about. I am still my chipper ol self and have the libido of Ron Jeremy! I'm not at all drowsy or effected negativly in any way? I guess it boils down to it effects everyone differently.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:22 pm 
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Diary of a Quitter wrote:

If you continue to make statements like this one and the ones quoted above, you will be banned.


Feel free to ban me if you like.

The topic of this part of the forum is 'why so angry' - so I thought people were free to discuss the negative aspects of their sub experiences.

I'm not discrediting anyone's hard work. In fact - I commend anyone who's working to taper off sub.

And nothing I posted was for the purpose of flaming. My tone was not insulting towards anyone. I'm just simply explaining why PAWS is a bigger problem for people on methadone and sub than other opiates. Many, MANY people are having miserable experiences trying to get off sub - and no one has explained to them that what they're going thru is a biological reaction to the drug. Instead they're told they should be 'fine' quitting sub at 2 mg per day. And the misery they're experiencing is 'all in their head' (literally - have heard that from a doctor before).

And no, even a long, slow taper is not a cake walk for many people. In particular those who've been on sub at higher doses and for longer periods of time. I think it should be incumbent on doctors and the manufacturer to warn patients that if they take this drug in excess of a year or so - when they try to quit - for MANY patients it's not a comfortable process. And the discomfort can be quite protracted. Doctors warn their patients about other drugs with serious side effects. Why not this one?

Again anyone on opiates - any opiate (heroin, sub, oxys, methadone, whatever) - who is working to taper, and is working on diet and exercise and their mental health is doing something admirable. But - they are still addicted to an opiate. No judgment in that. It's just a statement. And a biological fact that, until they stop taking the opiates, their brain cannot well heal.

This all well speaks to the 'why so angry' topic here. Many people who've had bad experiences with this drug - who try to share information and experience with others - perhaps to reassure them they're not going crazy, and to perhaps spare them some of the misery we've experienced - are silenced. IMO - when someone is taking ANY drug - the more information they have at their disposal the better. And trusting the manufacturer and profiteers of this drug as one's sole source of information is folly.

Finally - this is completely anecdotal / unscientific - just something I've observed: But it seems pretty universal that those who sing the praises of sub are either a) doctors and the manufacturer; or b) people still on the drug and in the first few years of treatment (eg - the honeymoon phase).

Most others have less high opinions of the stuff - because they've gone through the experience of quitting, and because they are now no longer opiated all day, and can clearly recognize the fog that they were in.

I've not encountered too many people who were on sub maintenance, now are off, who have many great things to say about it. I'd suggest reserving final judgment until off the stuff.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:38 pm 
Ok, I think we've pretty much played out this particular topic. I'm not sure if these 3 pages are helping anyone...I would hate to see it go to a 4th page. What are we talking about exactly??

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Wake me up when its over.


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