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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:02 pm 
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I have a question for whomever has an opinion on this topic.

Would you want to have as a prescriber/physician/therapist someone who was on Suboxone? (I know several who are)-and not just your sub dr. but your PCP, counselor/therapist, surgeon etc.
What would you want to know about this provider? how would you measure the stability of their recovery? Or, could you measure it? What would make you comfortable knowing they are in recovery? Or does it matter?
Would it be important for them to tell you about their recovery (in a general way) and if they are on Sub?
Would you expect different things of them than you do yourself? (as far as recovery is concerned)
What would be more important: For Sub prescribers-that you get your sub and who cares about their recovery? or that they are stable and you trust them? (and of course get your sub!). or for other physicians/providers-would you want to know about their Sub use? Do you feel medical and mental health providers should reveal this? Or is it a HIPPA thing and they should have privacy? Would you choose another provider if you know the one you see is on Sub?
Any other thoughts about this?
Some states won't allow physicians to practice on Sub is what I have read. I do not know if this is accurate information, however so it might be a moot point for some people.

Just curious as to what people think. What I am really looking for eventually is long term Sub use on cognition in the medical and mental health community.

thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:22 pm 
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I look at suboxone as any other medication. I see it as their business and their business only. I wouldn't have a problem with my doctor or therapist on sub. Hell, I wouldn't care if the local beat cop, judge, taxi driver, or airplane pilot were on sub. I know how it works for me and that it doesn't make one high. Why would it bother me? I think it would be a bit of a double standard if someone saw it as a problem, but that's just me. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would have a problem with it. I'm just not one of them.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:56 pm 
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I agree with everything that HatMaker said and in addition I'll say I would MUCH rather they be on sub than any other opiate.

If you lined 20 doctors up and asked me to pick out the 5 who were taking sub, I wouldn't be able to do it. I doubt anyone else would be able to either.

Now, if you were to pose this question to society as a whole, you would probably be hunted down and burned at the stake because of the tremendous lack of understanding that accompanies suboxone in our society. Hopefully, as time goes by these ridiculous beliefs will change.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:59 pm 
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thanks Hat. My hope is that Sub, over time, won't change my cognition like methadone did. The studies through DHS state that methadone doesn't change cognition...I read a study in my state...but for me it did. I didn't realize it until I stopped it of course! But for me Sub vs methadone? A huge difference. I think, however, when I look back that I noticed that change at the very start of methadone...I remember feeling like I had stabilized on it after many months but I was always worried if people thought I was high, or why my eyes twitched, or god forbid, I nodded or something like that. With Sub none of that has occurred for me.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:55 pm 
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Romeo..i agree. I wouldn't be able to pick out anyone on sub. Personally, I'd rather have someone in recovery who I was entrusting with my life or mental health...I'd know where they stand and the funny thing is...the people who would burn us at the stake are the ones that scare me most! The ones who "have no problems"...


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:27 pm 
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If they chose to share that with me it would be fine. Otherwise, as others have said, it is none of my business!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:49 pm 
You know, the true reality of this is that their are doctors, therapists, physicians doing far worse things than taking sub. Imalso gonna agree that unless he/she discloses that information to me, its none of my business. I would like to say that i would rather the doctor be taking sub in recovery than to be in active addiction.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:56 pm 
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I hate this stigma that follows Drs with Drug use and Recovery! Just cause they are Drs does not mean that aren’t humans and make mistakes right? Sure if a Dr is on a medication like SUBOXONE I think they should at least state this so the patient knows. But at the end of the day is that fair what if it was the other way around???? And you’re trying to become a fire fighter same thing saving peoples life but should you not be allowed to help people cause you are made a mistake how ever many years ago and are stable on SUB so you can control your addiction


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:35 pm 
chinagirl wrote:
But for me Sub vs methadone? A huge difference.
Is the difference that methadone actualy works for cravings while sub barely does? Im sorry to anyone that gets offended by that but in my opinion if you are able to stay off opiates while taking suboxone you would more than likely have no problem staying off opiates with complete absitence and no maintenance and just using suboxone as a detox tool. You feel absolutely NOTHING once maintained on suboxone except a headache and it takes away withdrawal but you wouldnt have the withdrawal if you werent addicted to the suboxone. It works great to take away the acute withdrawal from the full agonist you were using in the beginning but after that Im starting to feel like the people who say taking it for more than a couple weeks or maybe a month should be the maximum. If you are realy at rock bottom in your addiction and you dont ever want to feel the content feeling that opiates give you then more power to you suboxone will work for you but if you are like me and still crave day in and day out despite being on suboxone I dont know how well you will do with it. Ive mentioned so many times that I want to switch to methadone that its probably starting to get annoying to people here, money is the only thing keeping me from switching because I can get my suboxone for 30$ a month because of the film discount and methadone is 300$ monthly but man if I dont get on the methadone soon I know im heading for another relapse. I just cant take it anymore, I take my sub and nothing happens all it does is keep away withdrawaling from the suboxone and nothing else for me. It may be dose dependant but after reading loads of info and reading that "people who need 40mgs of more of methadone will not do well on suboxone" I can understand why I'm not doing well. Suboxone takes away all physical withdrawal dont get me wrong but I need something for the mental aspect. Methadone is my last chance before I inevitabley go back to using and I'm starting to get scared that I will be back in active addiction in no time if I cant switch to methadone soon. Im not putting down sub at all Im just saying that Im not ready to give up feeling a full agonist effect and I dont want to go back to using I would rather take methadone while supervised by a doctor and do it the safe way vs. self medicating with opiates on my own and ending up possibly overdosing and dieing, I think I came damn close to dieing when I relapsed one month after being on suboxone when I mixed huge amounts of pure phenazepam powder (research chemical benzodiazapine) with a large amount of opiates and alcohol. I had a huge tolerance to opiates then so I couldnt catch a nod without benzos mixed with them and I went overboard and was found by family nodded out with my eyes open and they thought I was dead. Sorry for rambling I just dont know what to do


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:00 pm 
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Suboxoned,

I wish you had a better experience on Sub...having cravings is really challenging. I know part of why Suboxone works is it is supposed to decrease cravings...my dr. told me that if I found myself ruminating over using again that I would probably need to up my dose. Lucky for me I am not having any cravings or thoughts of using on sub. I have been staying at 16mg now this month and feel pretty stable. No other symptoms...occasionally nausea or headache but very minimal. It usually goes away.
For me on Methadone I still had cravings and I was on 75mg. I did not want to keep increasing my dose so I dealt with it.
I am not sure where you read that if you need more th an 40mg methadone maintenance that Sub won't work for you....I've never heard that and I can say for me that Sub DOES work for me. I have absolutely no cravings on Sub. I only think about opiates when I am on this site...and I don' think about them as a way to use, just remembering my own story as I read about others'.
I hope you find some relief. Maybe Methadone will be it for you. I can't tell by your posts if you are saying you want to feel the full agonsit effect..meaning you want to get high? or feel content like on opiates? I didn't feel high on Methadone...it doesn't have that quick onset and as you know has a long half life so that helps decrease the euphoric effects...but I know some get high on it. Not saying that..I just don't remember feeling high...more just drugged and in that regard for me Methadone ended up being like using because I could easily just check out on it. Not so with Sub for me. I don't want to check out. I like my life again.
I don't mean to rub that in your face..I just mean my experience on Methadone was different. You'll maybe get a chance to try methadone and I hope so as you are saying you are not sure how much longer you can hold out without going back out. Does your insurance not pay for Methadone? Some do.
Again, I hope you get some relief soon...


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:13 pm 
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chinagirl,

I'm so happy that suboxone has worked so well for you. I try to keep up with your posts and it gives me a real kick that sub is working so well for you. You seem to be having the same reaction to sub that I did. Over the three years I took it I had no cravings. I do think a good part of the reason that I had no cravings is because I was absolutely convinced that if I took a full agonist, it would have no effect on me whatsoever...so I never did. It's amazing how powerful the mind is once it has made a concrete decision.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:47 pm 
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Thanks Romeo,

I swear, this is a miracle for me....for all of us that it works for....I cannot believe I waited so long to do this.
I have been doing well at 16 now but I think I want to call my dr and see if I can try 12 and see how I do there. I keep thinking it will be easier to get off if I stay lower...maybe that is not true. I think someone said it really probably won't make any difference. What is more important, obviously, is how I'm doing at whatever dose is my maintenance dose.

I just cannot believe I don't think about using, and I have energy. I used to read how people would say 'I feel so normal'...well its true! I feel normal.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:24 am 
A big part of why sub is not working for me is that I am precribed 16mgs by my doctor but I dont have insurance and that would cost me 480$ a month plus the 86$ doctor visit so I had to tell my doctor that I can only afford 4mgs a day. So being on only a 1/4 of the right dose is very hard for me. Every appointment my doctor says "we realy need to increase your dose back up to 16mg or at least 8mg if thats all you can afford" and I tell him no I cannot afford even 8mgs a day. I brought up to him that if he could Rx me the generic subutex I could afford to go back up to 16mgs a day and he instantly said no. Its like yea sure doc you realy care that I have cravings and are concerned if you cant make a simple change like letting me go on subutex so I can afford it and potentialy save my life if it keeps me from relapse. Also when you asked do I want to get high no that is not what I meant, back in active using I would from time to time I would use my drug of choice for maintenance and use it to just hold myself out of withdrawals in an attempt to lower my tolerance back down so i could get high again. Being on maintenance on my drug of choice was superior in every way FOR ME in comparison to suboxone because it absolutely held off cravings because of course it was a full agonist. I dont want to get high I just want a full agonist because it hits all of the receptors thus being more effective at keeping cravings away. Oh and also you mentioned drugs with long half lives not getting you high well my I prefered the opiates with a long half life over shorter acting ones. Youve probably seen me mention poppy pod tea (not seed tea but made with the dried poppy heads) that was my drug of choice and it has a 48 hour half life and I first got started with oxys but once I found pod tea I never looked back, I could nod harder on pods for hours on end then I could off hundreds of mgs of oxy. If I am accepted to the patient assistance program for suboxone soon then I will get free sub for a year and my doctor will be able to put me on the correct dosage again so right now that is my only hope and if it doesnt happen soon I dont know how much longer I can go on like this.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:41 am 
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Chinagirl (and everyone else) I think that you will do just fine at 12 mg. I was started on 16 mg and dropped to 12 mg a couple months later. There really was not a huge difference although I did seem to "struggle" just a little bit on the third day - or actually night - after dropping. I did end up taking the extra 4mg a couple of times after reaching the third day before firmly staying at 12 mg. I really didn't feel at all any different on 12 than I did on 16. Really, nothing changed. Then, the really "odd" thing was when I went to 8 mg. I actually did it when I was busier, more distracted and more tired at the end of the day and I went from 12 mg to 8 mg without feeling any difference whatsoever. It was just one fell swoop from 12 down to 8 and that's where I've stayed ever since. Sort of strange how I had a bit more of a struggle at 16 to 12 than I did from 12 to 8. I would not doubt at all that the first "problems" were more in my head. I have very little doubt that I could have (and should have) just started right at 8 mg - although I don't think it harmed me or did any damage in any way, other than the extra cost.

As for dropping to 4 mg, from all I have read and heard, that is an entirely different issue. I have no trouble believing that patients may well start to struggle at 4. I hope to find out one day, but at this point I have no immediate plans to drop again. When I do, 6 mg will be my next step.

So, I suggest you give 12 a shot. I'm rather confident you will do fine. Suboxowned, it's too bad that you can't afford 8 mg as I think you too would do much better there. You might even do okay at 6 mg if you can afford that. Some people find that doing 3 in the AM and 3 in the PM also helps greatly - due to the lower dose. I know this may still not work for you $$$ wise but I'm just throwing it out there for you.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:17 am 
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Donh, thanks for that feedback...I'll call my dr and ask him (as I have 'lectured' how much I don't want to continue to make those decisions on my own!!) what he thinks about me going to 12 and then maybe 10 and then 8. Not sure how long I should take to do that since I haven't been on it that long, or does it matter yet? But it really makes sense why going down to 4 and under is more difficult if you look at cutting the lower doses in hal f(vs higher doses) it has much more of an effect on us as far as what's available pharmacodynamically. (I am looking at % here).
I'm just still so amazed at this medication...

Suboxoned, I cannot believe your dr won't prescribe subutex for a financial need...I don't know your history and I know if there is a history of IV use then usually they won't do that. Relapse vs subutex? Wow....no brainer to me.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:22 pm 
Yeah I have no Iv'd a drug in my entire life so thats what frustrates me about the whole subutex thing. I dont know if doctors actualy think there is more abuse potential with subutex or they are just stubborn and dont want to be in essencse told what to do by a patient, which I didnt do anyway I asked him as politely as possible. He mentioned something about diversion and some other things and I said "well I would be willing to come in for a random pill count any time" and told him he could call me whenever and I bring in my pills and he still said no. I just hate being faced with taking this low dose for the entire time Im on suboxone, somedays I think well Ill take 1mg today and 7mgs the next and do it like that since it has the long half life but thats almost impossible. I tell myself Im gonna do that at night but then the next morning I wake up and take 4mgs.


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