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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:27 pm 
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Been using suboxone for 4 months at 8mg a day at most. 6mg a day some times...
Now I'm at 4mg a day. When I get down to 1mg a day, I will start this plan:

This is my taper plan: (with use of the following supplements to help ease wd symptoms)
list of supplements:
nootropics - still over the counter, o:
Tianeptine (has effects on opiod receptors and will ease wd symptoms)
aniracetam (anti-anxiety mostly)
phenibut (anti-anxiety mostly and for sleep)
L-Theanine (in green tea, used mostly for anxiety and mood enhancement/cognitive improvement)

Herbs/over the counter
Vitamin B6
Strong wide-spectrum mineral supplement with at least 100% RDA of Zinc, Phosphorus, Copper, Magnesium and Potassium (and bananas for natural potassium)
Multivitamin
Imodium - (for diarrhea)
5-htp
A lot of electrolytes (powerade and lemons)
milk thistle
st johns wort
Advil/tylonol

Going to request from doctor:
Any type of benzo (for anxiety and sleep)
Clonidine (for the hot/cold sweats and feeling of your skin crawling also anxiety relief)
Tramadol (for withdrawal relief just like Tianeptine)
Gabapentin or Lyrica (as i've heard it has worked WONDERS for withdrawal)


Now, all of these will not be taken all at once every day or every day. Some may be used on certain days, some may be used for after I'm completely off of suboxone. I'm going to explain my taper plan now:

Get down to 1mg. This is the start of it, day one (of a two week taper) starts the day after this day.

Two week taper plan:
Day one, go to .9mg. Feel slight discomfort, use no supplements
Day two, go to .8mg. Feel slight discomfort, use no supplements unless needed
Day three, go to .7mg. Feel maybe great discomfort, use supplements as needed.
Day four, go to .6mg. Feel maybe great discomfort, use supplements as needed.
Day five, go to .5mg (im going to stay at this dose for the remaining 9 days). Feel major discomfort, use supplements as needed.
From then on, I will stay at .5 for 9 days and jump off (using supplements as needed)

When I jump off .5 and off for good, I will use mostly tramadol, Tianeptine (has action on opoid receptors), anti anxiety supplements, multivitamins, and gabapentin (if i can get it) + clonidine if i can get it too. Still use supplements until no more withdrawal symptoms are felt. Success... Hopefully.

and that is my 2 week taper. The reason for most of the supplements is because of the crazy withdrawals I will feel. I will NEED them lol, esp. gabapentin (since i heard its a godsend for suboxone withdrawals).

So, any suggestions? I'm not planning to taper for a month or even two. Not three weeks (maybe possible idk) but I'm trying to get off of this drug fast. I know there will be PAWS. The above supplements will help with that too... I'm just asking on your opinion and any advice you may have or constructive critism.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:50 pm 
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hey man,
I like that you have it all mapped out. As for advice, based on my experience, I am not sure if reducing from 1 to .5 in a couple weeks will contribute positively to the withdrawal process. Now if you're planning a much longer taper and can get down to even less then .5, that will for sure help the acute withdrawal. But a quick taper in 9 days from 1-.5 and then a jump may just prolong your acute withdrawals for weeks instead of 5-7 days. You may feel progressively shittier during the 9 day taper and then really shitty after the jump, prolonging the symptoms. I dont know what your goal is, but mine was to get off with no pain. I tapered from 2mg to .5 and then from .5 to almost nothing over about 45 days. I had a few days of discomfort during the taper, but zero pain after the jump(jumped around .03mg if I recall). It sounds like your goal may be to get off as soon as possible. If that is the case, it may be better to jump at 1mg. It will suck but it wont be as prolonged.... Idk, do what you think will work for you. All I can do is tell you what worked for me.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:55 pm 
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Alright man! Thanks for the advice, I might go along with that i don't know yet...
Maybe your plan is the best. I will consider it and prolong my taper.

Thanks again! :)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:33 am 
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Hey Jason,

I just wanted to chime in about your plan to use tramadol as a tool for detox. This is a bit concerning for me. Have you ever taken it before? For me, it had similar effects as SAO, and is in fact classified as a scheduled drug in most states. There is debate about whether or not it is a narcotic, I feel that it is based on the effects it gives. I used to use it when I would run out of my hydros and not be able to find anything else. I overdosed on them one day and had a seizure, wound up in the hospital for a couple days and had a six month restriction on my driving priviledges.

I am always concerned when I see people planning on using any kind of opiate or opiate type medication while detoxing. It's just a very slippery slope. I'm not judging you Jason, only expressing concern. Have you thought this through completely? It very well may end up triggering you to use.

Also, I've never heard of the other medication you mentioned, tianeptine, I'll go google it, but I just wondered what exactly that is?

Good luck with your taper. The above poster raised a good point. What is your ultimate goal? Is it to come off as painlessly as possible or as quickly as possible. It might help us to give you some better advice if we know your priority here.

Q

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:25 am 
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Hey Jason,

I completely agree with QHorse about the Tramadol. It can be a very tricky drug that requires tapering to safely get off. Q's advice on Tramadol is spot on.

I just wanted to say that it appears you are expecting quite a few symptoms. Maybe you are over-thinking the situation and any symptoms may be entirely tolerable as they were for me and lots of others. It's nice to have some kind of plan in place, but I personally believe you are expecting this to be a terrible experience, and i'm just saying it may not be.

Think of it more as a positive experience rather than any kind of a negative one and you might be surprised!

Like Livin says, maybe put more time between dose reductions when going from .9mg down to .5mg instead of the one day you are planning? And if you took a few days and reduced lower than .5 as in .25mg or even .125mg that will give you an even better chance of having even lesser symptoms as many have experienced.

Anyway my 2 cents and my opinions and I wish you the very best. Please keep us informed how your doing along the way when you get going with your taper.

Karen xoxo


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:31 am 
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qhorsegal2 wrote:
Hey Jason,

I just wanted to chime in about your plan to use tramadol as a tool for detox. This is a bit concerning for me. Have you ever taken it before? For me, it had similar effects as SAO, and is in fact classified as a scheduled drug in most states. There is debate about whether or not it is a narcotic, I feel that it is based on the effects it gives. I used to use it when I would run out of my hydros and not be able to find anything else. I overdosed on them one day and had a seizure, wound up in the hospital for a couple days and had a six month restriction on my driving priviledges.

I am always concerned when I see people planning on using any kind of opiate or opiate type medication while detoxing. It's just a very slippery slope. I'm not judging you Jason, only expressing concern. Have you thought this through completely? It very well may end up triggering you to use.

Also, I've never heard of the other medication you mentioned, tianeptine, I'll go google it, but I just wondered what exactly that is?

Good luck with your taper. The above poster raised a good point. What is your ultimate goal? Is it to come off as painlessly as possible or as quickly as possible. It might help us to give you some better advice if we know your priority here.

Q


I'm super experienced with opiates, including tramadol, hydrocodone, hydromorphone, oxycodone, heroin, suboxone, percocet, any on here I didn't list is cuz I forgot... only ones I haven't tried is fentanyl.

My tramadol use in the past was huge. I used to use 250mg on the reg. At the most I would go at 450mg plus a benzo to lower seizure threshold and thats what I did, but I only did that dose once or twice. Most I did without any other substance was 400mg. It was magical, back then. When I wasn't tolerant to opiates... Everything was magical, hydros, percs, even tramadol. But now that's all changed. I could take 4000mg of tramadol (and yes have a seizure - but also not feel any pain killing effects too)...

tianeptine is an SSRE (not an SSRI) - like prozac. tianeptine helps with the withdrawal in that it works on your opiate receptors (its an odd drug) I think by raising natural endorphins... Idk, but I heard it was supposed to help and I'ma use it for that.

My ULTIMATE goal is to get off as painlessly as possible, maybe I should turn this taper into a 4 week thing. I just wanted to get off quick. Would 4 weeks subside? with me dropping off at something like .05? and feel no pain at all? I'm not trying to do a 3 month taper here... I've been on suboxone for only 4 months! So I don't think withdrawal will be TOO bad since I have only been addicted to opiates (suboxone 4 months included) for 8 months. So with the 2 week taper, I think I'd do well, but idk, could you give me your opinion? :) thanks for reading


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:39 am 
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Brown Eyed Girl wrote:
Hey Jason,

I completely agree with QHorse about the Tramadol. It can be a very tricky drug that requires tapering to safely get off. Q's advice on Tramadol is spot on.

I just wanted to say that it appears you are expecting quite a few symptoms. Maybe you are over-thinking the situation and any symptoms may be entirely tolerable as they were for me and lots of others. It's nice to have some kind of plan in place, but I personally believe you are expecting this to be a terrible experience, and i'm just saying it may not be.

Think of it more as a positive experience rather than any kind of a negative one and you might be surprised!

Like Livin says, maybe put more time between dose reductions when going from .9mg down to .5mg instead of the one day you are planning? And if you took a few days and reduced lower than .5 as in .25mg or even .125mg that will give you an even better chance of having even lesser symptoms as many have experienced.

Anyway my 2 cents and my opinions and I wish you the very best. Please keep us informed how your doing along the way when you get going with your taper.

Karen xoxo


Well, Im only using the tramadol to ease the pain while I drop off my last dose. Then I would start taking it every day to ease the "pain" and symptoms of withdrawal, only for 2 weeks... so I won't get addicted.

Quote:
Think of it more as a positive experience rather than any kind of a negative one and you might be surprised!

THANK YOU so much for posting this! Mind OVER MATTER! You're right, I'm going in this thinking my symptoms are going to be hell, but maybe they won't. I should come in positive, not negative on this...


Now, you talked about my .9 to .5 taper? Well, now I'm thinking of changing my taper to 4 weeks so it's less painful (still using supplements as needed)..

By the way, does imodium cause Precipitated withdrawal when getting off suboxone? say I take my .5 dose one day and had imodium 2 hours before. Would I experience any PW?

Thanks for reading! Appreciate the feedback!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:59 am 
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Hey Jason,

Most everyone here is super experienced with opiates. And many here are super experienced with Suboxone too! Many here have been on it for long periods of time and know how it best works both getting on and off it.

Everyone that wants off subs goal is to get off as painlessly as possible of course. And I think it's been proven by many that the way to do that is to taper as low as possible, and as slow as possible too! That doesn't mean you can't go a bit faster than the general consensus, it just means what has worked best for most here including myself is tapering low before jumping.

You mentioned originally starting your taper when you got down to a 1mg dose. From there you might want to reduce to for EXAMPLE: .75mg, then to .50mg, and then maybe to .25mg and either jumping from there, OR tapering once more to half of the .25mg dose which would be a dose of .125mg. Or make the doses much smaller perhaps? Lots of ways to do it. Reducing by 10% each time is another example.

And maybe put 3-4 days between those doses would be fine. Many go a week or longer between doses and that's fine too. I was on subs for about 3 years and once I got down to 2mg I reduced very slow at first, then changed and reduced by .25mg each time, and went about 3-7 days between the reductions. I got off very easy, and basically had no symptoms to speak of. A few minor jitters here and there, but nothing that stopped me from doing anything!

That's just an example I gave you above. You have to find a way that works best for you, but that example is a good one in my opinion. From a 1mg dose it would take about 2-3 weeks which is fairly fast actually.

Anyway just my thoughts here and maybe QHorse will be here soon to give you her suggestions. Just get a plan of your own and go with it is my best advice Jason. You will be ok if your attitude is positive, and your committment is there which I'm sure it is.

Just don't think because you've been on Suboxone for "ONLY" 4 months the symptoms won't or can't be severe because they certainly can. Sub is extremely strong and powerful, and the half life makes it stick around for a long long time. 4 months is PLENTY of time to produce severe symptoms if jumping at too high a dose, or getting off too quickly!

Karen xoxo


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:48 am 
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Brown Eyed Girl wrote:
Hey Jason,

Most everyone here is super experienced with opiates. And many here are super experienced with Suboxone too! Many here have been on it for long periods of time and know how it best works both getting on and off it.

Everyone that wants off subs goal is to get off as painlessly as possible of course. And I think it's been proven by many that the way to do that is to taper as low as possible, and as slow as possible too! That doesn't mean you can't go a bit faster than the general consensus, it just means what has worked best for most here including myself is tapering low before jumping.

You mentioned originally starting your taper when you got down to a 1mg dose. From there you might want to reduce to for EXAMPLE: .75mg, then to .50mg, and then maybe to .25mg and either jumping from there, OR tapering once more to half of the .25mg dose which would be a dose of .125mg. Or make the doses much smaller perhaps? Lots of ways to do it. Reducing by 10% each time is another example.

And maybe put 3-4 days between those doses would be fine. Many go a week or longer between doses and that's fine too. I was on subs for about 3 years and once I got down to 2mg I reduced very slow at first, then changed and reduced by .25mg each time, and went about 3-7 days between the reductions. I got off very easy, and basically had no symptoms to speak of. A few minor jitters here and there, but nothing that stopped me from doing anything!

That's just an example I gave you above. You have to find a way that works best for you, but that example is a good one in my opinion. From a 1mg dose it would take about 2-3 weeks which is fairly fast actually.

Anyway just my thoughts here and maybe QHorse will be here soon to give you her suggestions. Just get a plan of your own and go with it is my best advice Jason. You will be ok if your attitude is positive, and your committment is there which I'm sure it is.

Just don't think because you've been on Suboxone for "ONLY" 4 months the symptoms won't or can't be severe because they certainly can. Sub is extremely strong and powerful, and the half life makes it stick around for a long long time. 4 months is PLENTY of time to produce severe symptoms if jumping at too high a dose, or getting off too quickly!

Karen xoxo


Thanks very much for the advice, and I will definitely try the reducing by half every 4-7 days thing. That sounds feasible. Again, I appreciate your support on my journey to quitting suboxone :)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:08 am 
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jasonh wrote:
By the way, does Imodium cause Precipitated withdrawal when getting off suboxone? say I take my .5 dose one day and had Imodium 2 hours before. Would I experience any PW?

Thanks for reading! Appreciate the feedback!



I also wanted to answer this question you had about the Imodium, Jason....

No, Imodium can't cause any PW at all. PW's are caused by inducting too quickly after using your last drug of choice for the last time. Once your on sub therapy safely any chance of PW's are long gone at that time.

You have no worries now!

Karen


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:43 pm 
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I just wanted to give my 2 cents. Being on a total of 8 months is very little compared to a lot of people! The longer you're on, the harder to get off. Though sometimes, the acute WD symptom can be just the same. It's usually more of the long term WD symptoms that are lessened with less time.

As for the use of Tramadol, I don't see the harm. IF you're sure that it won't affect your recovery. And I only recommend 5mg when you need it, IF you need it. Wait until you don't feel so hot. It'll ease the RLS, which is by far the worst symptom. The one thing I CAN say:

I was on Subs for 20 months. When I came off, I came off at .50 a day. I took a 5mg Vicodin every 6 hours or so. It gave me a little boost of energy and definitely helped me sleep. But, that was only for 4 days. I do feel like it prolonged the WD process a little. The 5-12 nights were hell with RLS. AT the same time, it took the edge off of the day time and left me at Day 5 with not much to complain about besides some minor uncomfortableness. Basically, I was able to care for my son and leave the house without wanting to die. Which is not something I was ever able todo with WD before.

If I were you, stick to the "over the counter" meds & vitamins and ONLY take the extra if its absolutely necessary. You could get lucky and have little to no WD, especially with such a short amount of usage!

Good luck!!


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