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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:57 pm 
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I don't think na is stuck anywhere nor is it the only route of recovery....but...I think other addicts feel the way they do about other recreational drugs, alcohol, replacemt drugs, act....because of addict track records. For the most part...addicts think they can use this or that because it has never been a problem for themand then before you know it they are back to using their doc. I have just seen it happen hundreds if not thousands of times. It may not be that day or that week or even that month...but it happens almost always. How can you be so certain that you are the special addict that can use other drugs without a problem? Idk. Just speaking based on experience with myself and other addicts. I guess if it works for you...great...but I wouldn't broadcast it online for the newcomer to google and then think it is beyond possible to keep.using...just a different substance! Sounds crazy to me.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:41 pm 
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I think we all need to get our terms of reference, right, before we go firing off,.

SINCE WE ARE REFFERING TO OPIATES, lets stick to opiates, not cancer drugs, or thyroid replacement therapy, and other much needed drugs to repair life, or bring it into balance. We are not even talking about, pain management, we are talking about addiction.

Lets go right out and say it, as we are all thinking it,

There is always hope, for every opiate addict, if you refuse to believe that, then you are wasting everyone's time.
If is just so self defeating, to believe that you need opiates to function, and it is ridiculous, to harbour a deep love for opiates, when all they do is end in pain, . It is pure selfishness, and greed, and I guess you could say stubborness.


I am sick of people saying, oh its easy getting off opiates, the hard part, is staying clean.
Are you completely out of your mind, .?
It's no different to ciggarettes, just a bunch of peoploe, refusing to put the work in, and always choosing the easy options.

Listen people, Addictions don;t last forever, they can come and go, The problem here is ot the drug, it is the people behind the drug.

The drug, is like the icing on the cake, or the tip of the iceberg. They mask the true underlying issues.

There is always hope, this is my point, My only point,


Hopespring



p.s. So, people that have succumbed to believing they need bupe all there life, makes me wonder , why you would browse a forum at all, if you are all so happy. Being loaded fulll of opiates is one of the easiest things in life to be.
Why would you bother being in such a forum unless, you also believed there was hope for you.


Behind, every stubborn addict, is the hidden truth, they know, that this path, is not the best for them,

And I am not going, to agree with them, and make life harder for them to break the cycle.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:41 pm 
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Romeo & Hopespring its no hidden secret I pretty much adore both of you. I have to say the recent posts have made me smile. Very well written and I could not agree more.

If anyone takes any of that as ludacris, go jump off a bridge. Sincerely WTBF.

Movie - I pray and hope for your own recovery that Suboxone never effects you in any negative way. I think Suboxone first needs to give you a reason to dislike it. For Romeo, me, Hopespring, Tiny and many others it gave us valid reasons to hate it. It started to destroy our way of life. It seems to be the case for many. There will always be one-offs. A percentage of people may never experience a negative symptom and by all means keep doing your thing.

The fact remains though that people far and wide either tire of having to take Suboxone to feel normal, or tire of the side effects that have started to take a toll on there life. I personally don't view recovery past the first 30 days as that difficult. Cravings still to this day have not effected me. They might not ever. I can't remember what a Roxy high feels like. I sure can remember what a MDMA high feels like, however. ( bow chicka wow wow ) it can certainly effect people differently and I'm still quite early in my recovery. I don't see some of my idols on this forum sweating ball sack about taking oxy daily though. I don't seem them consistently posting about fucking up, or getting back on the drugs. I certainly don't see them posting about AA NA groups or those other "hardcore idiot's".

If you want to stay on suboxone your entire life at this point in time - do your thang -. I'll never try to convince someone to stop taking suboxone. But if they ask for assistance I'll dedicate my time and knowledge to helping them stop.

Movie I respect you for your beliefs. I respect that you defend them. I especially respect you can see our side on topics, and that you came to my defense on my own personal problems. You're a classy guy. That's appreciated. I love arguing with you too. Best of both worlds.

Everyone is different. It's obvious on this thread. It's what makes us human. Keep up the debate!

;)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:00 pm 
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I wanted to add - one of my friends here has slipped. More than once. I think he majorly beats himself up about it way too much, however by all means he is clean. He's been clean a long time. His advice has been an absolute god send.

His advice is present on almost every thread I've ever read here. Reading his personal follies and personal triumphs have been more than helpful in my own recovery. It's people like him that provide such strong motivation in knowing how great life can be without a crutch. Knowing that I can live happy without my drug of choice. Knowing that my life is sufficient without opiates.

Whatever makes you happy in my opinion. I've always believed you're the game designer in your own life. You create the positives and negatives. You dictate the good and bad. If something else is controlling that, than you've lost the ultimate weapon. You've lost your ability to dictate the course of action.

Oh so much pondering for a Thursday night.

Much love,

-WTBF


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:15 pm 
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I know this an old thread, but I'm so interested in this debate. The way one feels about suboxone going on vs going off. It is a pendulum swing for many I gather.

I have in my head a picture of capsizing in the ocean. You're scared and praying and - some of us might be on a lifeboat, some might be drowning- but we're all stuck. So a shrimpboat scoops you out. You've been saved. Now, the trip home might be short or long. But you are grateful nonetheless. You don't turn to your rescuers and say ," hurry it up now will ya- I got places to be!" Hell, you may even be sea sick! But you fight on. When you finally you get to terra firma again, you don't give the boat a kick and flip off the captain do you?

I'm still in the shrimp boat. I'm happy to be out of the water, but hoping to dock soon. I'm annoyed its taking longer than I had hoped. And some of these guys are getting on my nerves. AND the captain is drunk I think. Shit! A storm!
When I get home, I'm still going to write a thank you letter.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:26 pm 
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Minnie wrote:
I know this an old thread, but I'm so interested in this debate. The way one feels about suboxone going on vs going off. It is a pendulum swing for many I gather.

I have in my head a picture of capsizing in the ocean. You're scared and praying and - some of us might be on a lifeboat, some might be drowning- but we're all stuck. So a shrimpboat scoops you out. You've been saved. Now, the trip home might be short or long. But you are grateful nonetheless. You don't turn to your rescuers and say ," hurry it up now will ya- I got places to be!" Hell, you may even be sea sick! But you fight on. When you finally you get to terra firma again, you don't give the boat a kick and flip off the captain do you?

I'm still in the shrimp boat. I'm happy to be out of the water, but hoping to dock soon. I'm annoyed its taking longer than I had hoped. And some of these guys are getting on my nerves. AND the captain is drunk I think. Shit! A storm!
When I get home, I'm still going to write a thank you letter.


What an awesome allegory!!! I love it!

Amy

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:32 pm 
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This post was awesome.
I have never heard such an awesome way of putting it all down so many can understand this stuff. I dig it.

I feel like you gotta remember that even though you're on that shrimp boat, you can fall overboard and go right back to gasping for air in the wide open water. Many have even been on that very same boat and without a life vest or being anywhere even close to docking jump off the stern thinking they will float this time and a magical whale is going to carry them all the way to shore. No real effort involved.


Ha. I love this analogy. Thanks for that. Made my day haha.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:47 pm 
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MovieMaker1 wrote:
This post was awesome.
I have never heard such an awesome way of putting it all down so many can understand this stuff. I dig it.

I feel like you gotta remember that even though you're on that shrimp boat, you can fall overboard and go right back to gasping for air in the wide open water. Many have even been on that very same boat and without a life vest or being anywhere even close to docking jump off the stern thinking they will float this time and a magical whale is going to carry them all the way to shore. No real effort involved.


Ha. I love this analogy. Thanks for that. Made my day haha.



Magical Whale? YES. We can definitely incorporate a magic whale into our story!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:49 pm 
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If stepping off that shrimp boat meant the possibilty of crushing wd's then I think a lot of people would be flipping off the captain and kicking that boat! :)

When I quit Suboxone, wd kicked my ass severely. I had no clue the wd from Suboxone was so long. It may not have been as intense as pain pill wd, but it seemingly lasts forever and surely tested me to my very limits. (I'm a high jumper, BTW)

I hated Suboxone when I was going through my wd. I think I hated it so much because of the severity of my wd and because going through a grueling high jump means you're not quite right in the head for a little while.

Many people have come here over the years and hated on Suboxone and I've found most of those are high jumpers. In my experience, a lot of those people, once their acute wd is over, manage to see how Suboxone truly did save their lives....it just takes us high jumpers a few minutes to be able to see it. :wink:

Now, had a magical whale came and saved my ass early on, I could have avoided all this crap. Magical whale, where were you when I needed you most, you SOB!! lol

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:39 pm 
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^ To add to what Romeo said, most of the people that *I* notice who "hate" on suboxone, also haven't come from the desperation of life & death that a lot of others here have. I think it has more to do with the progression of the disease vs. which dose is being jumped from. It's easier to hate on suboxone when you don't have much worse to compare it to, in terms of life struggles. When you're playing with pills for a little while and go through a few uncomfortable withdrawals, of course you're going to eventually question what you're doing on suboxone and how evil it is.

When the life you knew was one of truly drowning; losing everyone and everything in your life, dangerous abscesses, ODs, people around you dying, trouble with the law.. that's when you realize who gives a fuck if you (eventually) have to spend a year getting back to normal if it means getting your life back.

I'm not sure I've yet to see one member hate on suboxone who came from these depths of addiction, because in reality, they'd know in their hearts what suboxone actually did for them. Getting off suboxone -no matter what dose- is child's play compared to the pits of active addiction. *shrugs*


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:49 pm 
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Great post tiny! I think that is the major difference. You have someone who was taking 50 mgs of hydro a day from their doctor and started running out early and realized they were getting sick and couldn't quit so they asked their doctor for help and the doctor puts them on suboxone. Well duh if you come from that circumstance you may think suboxone made you worse off! I just wish they would understand that if they wouldn't have had the suboxone and given it a few more years they may have become desparate enough to truly appreciate what suboxone does.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:30 am 
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Touching upon that, I do wonder if those just hanging out in the lifeboat and not actually drowning, would they feel the same amount of relief upon being hauled to the shrimpboat? Technically, one would think I was safe in a lifeboat, but sharks were circling and who know how many other chances I'd get. I had already witnessed a couple of drownings even though I tried to save them. How many days could I go on in that flimsy thing? Silly to hold off for a yacht you know? Even sillier to expect a magical whale to come to my rescue. So, I climbed in crying from exhaustion, relief and gratitude. I am safe. I don't know what will become of me when we dock, but I'm trying to prepare. Maybe I'm not a land person? But, I have to try.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:18 pm 
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We all have three options and that's it. None other. None. Use till we die, opiate replacement therapy mixed with some recovery work, or go to 12 step meetings every waking moment and make that your new life.

So you gotta pick one. Because this disease CAN go into remission, but we never beat it/get over it/move past it/put it behind us. So. I guess what I'm saying is to look at the big picture here. I know "just for today" is a totally accurate thing for drug addicts to practice, but if you're on subs and planning to get off of them in the near future... Consider the REST OF YOUR LIFE. It's not about one month or one year or even ten years. So you gotta fill up on recovery stuff all the time if you get away from suboxone.

Finally. We can only change so much. Especially depending on your age. But. Many talk about being on subs for 2 years or so like it's decades. But. How much could you possibly rebuild, regroup, totally change, and make better in a year or two? Some. Deff.

Idk what I'm getting at. I guess just consider your whole life if you get off, how hard it will still be, and what you plan to actively do for the rest of forever to keep it in check. That's all.

Mm


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