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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:35 pm 
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Hello All:

I want to start by saying thank you in advance for any support that anyone can give me even if it's just encouraging words. Also if I posted this in the wrong place please let me know, I am knew to this forum.

I just don't know what else to do, I have tried to jump off this sh*t about 5 times in the past 5 weeks. I have even been to detox 400 miles away for 8 days. The reason for this is because my doctors (a team of them), my boyfriend and mostly myself wants me off this medication. The last thing I will have is this baby be born into a world of hell, that is for me to deal with! Plus I have been wanting off for some time. I have been on it for about 2 years this time around. (Please note that I did not get pregnant on purpose, it was an accident and I had no idea how much harder it would be to get off this pregnant, the reason is because I cannot take anything to ease the WD like I have in the past, for example Klonopin, etc) I am 23 weeks, in the 2nd trimester and its the best time to do this. Respectfully please do not try to change my mind about getting off of it, every doctor I've spoken to and research I've done says it is FAR better to get off in the 2nd Trimester rather than risk the baby going through horrible WD's which is much more likely than not. Plus they have no idea the long term effects this medication could cause for baby yet.. I am responsible to bear this burden and to feel the hell. Trust me, I don't judge any mother who choses to stay on this medication through their pregnancy, for me it is simply not an option.

When I went to detox it got so bad after a few days they put me on codeine for 4 days (but only 2 60mg pills a day), I had no idea that 2 days after I got home I would once again go into horrible WD's. It was like I started over… I was so exhausted from 10 days of no sleep and slightly detoxing the whole time I had to get some relief. So I took about .5 yesterday and .25 today. I have one more .25 piece and I threw the rest away.. I guess I have a few reasons I am here I really need some support to get through this, I have to do it this time and I am alone most of the day. I go to meetings but that only takes up so much time. (I also have a sponsor, work steps, have been in the program for years)

I also have a question… after being off of subutex for 10 days (on codeine for 4 of them) and taking the .5 yesterday and .25 today AM I STARTING FROM SQUARE ONE?? I guess it does not really matter because I have to get this done but I just need some hope. (or people's true experience) I trusted the place I went to to help me and it did nothing but prolong this nightmare. I can't change that but I have to move forward and now.

I have gotten off this medication 2 times before. It is just so much harder because I am pregnant. Please, I just need some support to help me through this..

Thank you so much in advance everyone!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:59 pm 
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Welcome to the forum!

I understand the concerns you have at this time. I wanted you to know that you WILL receive the support you request as you go through this.

I would suggest you gather as much info on the subject as you possibly can. Dr. Junig has written much about the use of Suboxone/Subutex during pregnancy, and whether it's best to remain on or attempt to taper off. You can search his blog if you like. I totally respect your wishes and desire to get off the subs, but I would only ask to make absolutely certain it's the very best thing for you and of course the baby.

Again welcome to you and I wish the very best for you and baby.

Karen


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:03 pm 
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I'm not saying what I'm saying to change YOUR mind--- but to make sure people are not mislead by your comments. Regardless of your 'team' of doctors, the standard of care in every addiction or OB textbook, over the past 15 years, has been for pregnant women to stay on METHADONE during pregnancy. The teaching in medical school clerkships and residencies is that the WORST thing for mom and baby is to 'taper off' during pregnancy-- in part because of the harm introduced by a taper (poor nutrition, poor sleep, and irritability do not create a good intrauterine environment)... but also because almost all 'tapers' end up fruitless, and some result in use of more dangerous opioids.

Over the past few years, studies have shown that the incidence of NAS is much lower with buprenorphine and Suboxone--- and half of babies show no signs at all. For that reason, the standard of care is changing, so that most docs will keep people on buprenorphine where they are, and people on methadone where THEY are.

This writer has made up her mind-- but I can assure others that I have trained in some of the top programs in the country-- and I continue to have regular discussions with leaders in the addiction field about this topic. Many people have read my posts about why 'withdrawal' is an incorrect term for NAS--- and how the symptoms of NAS compare to the other things that ALL babies experience. Anyone telling you that your baby will have 'horrible withdrawal' has an agenda that is blinding the facts--- and the 'every doctor' described by this writer apparently live in a vacuum where they are protected from the insight provided by the work of their peers.

But to the writer of the post....

whenever I read someone writing about this 'horrible' drug, I don't understand why they don't just go back to where they came from-- i.e. find a doc to give you oxycodone, or buy it on the street? If they are staying on buprenorphine, they must recognize some redeeming quality-- so I don't get the attitude about it being so horrible.

I realize you want a certain answer.... but here, people tend to give answers that are based less on emotion and the opinions of boyfriends, and more on data and collective experience.

There is no ideal way to taper. You need to lower your mu receptor tolerance to zero. Tolerance lowers in response to the loss of activity in opioid pathways, which equals withdrawal symptoms. Your choice is to have worse symptoms over a short time, or mild symptoms over a long time. No technique is 'better'; some people cannot stay motivated for the weeks necessary for a long taper, so for them, a quick, miserable taper is better. Other people can maintain motivation long enough for a slow taper. Neither one is better for a fetus. I don't know where any of your info comes from-- it all strikes me as 'odd'--- but there is nothing great about using the second trimester. Whoever claimed that is probably confused by the fact that major organ development occurs in the 1st trimester, so that is the worst trimester to be on teratogenic meds (bupe is not a teratogen). But the second trimester is one where GROWTH of organs and tissues becomes much more important---- the time where a mom with bad nutrition is MORE likely to impact the fetus than the first or third trimester.

In other words, the second trimester is the worst time to go on a diet-- which is what people usually do, coming off any opioid.

Finally, all your comments about the 'hell of withdrawal you are not putting your baby through'... your baby is at the time when he/she would survive out of the womb. If you really think that withdrawal is 'hell', you aren't protecting the baby from it; you are only protecting yourself from SEEING it. Frankly, it isn't 'hell' for the baby, so I wouldn't sweat it.... but I prefer my own patients to let their babies get plenty of good nutrition so that the brain, which needs fat, can develop properly. In half the cases, the babies will be no different from any other baby in the nursery. And in the other cases, NAS from buprenorphine is mild and self-limited. The biggest threat to such a baby is a 'team of doctors'!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:23 pm 
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There IS a little support in my comment--- just not the support you were expecting. NOBODY should be given a guilt trip over choosing to treat their addiction---- not from boyfriends, family, or teams of doctors... or forums. http://www.suboxonetalkzone.com/withdrawal-in-newborns-lay-off-the-guilt-trip/


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:33 pm 
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"Show respect for the decisions of others…"

I live near Palo Alto and go to Stanford, received many opinions from amazing doctors in the area and this is what we decided. I personally do not want to be on this medication anymore and do not want to take any chance even if it is 1% that he could be born with NAS. If at any point I find myself not getting enough rest or food, or anything important I have gotten back on a small dose. I have gained more than enough healthy weight and this is the choice that I want.

I was planning on getting off when I got pregnant. It kills my motivation, I isolate, am depressed, lethargic, I personally do not like the way it makes me feel. I use to be an avid runner, super active, a totally different person. I know it changes me because my Mom can talk to me for 10 minutes and know if I have started taking it again in the past.. it's the craziest thing.

If for some reason the baby were to become in distress or anything seemed to be the slightest bit wrong of course I would get back on the lowest dose possible. I am being monitored every other week, if not more, right now by my OB. Until then I want to continue to get off of it and I just hoped for an outlet to talk to others during the hard part… but it seems this is not the place for that?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:24 pm 
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Hey NorCal. I can relate with you in many ways, and understand how Sub can leave you feeling Dull, or lifeless. I also understand wanting to quit Now, Regardless of what others say or what stands in your way. I would love to encourage you through this, but knowing that you have a kid on the way puts me in a weird place . I can tell your intelligent, and you understand sub isn't for you. I'm not a Doctor, or a professional regarding addiction. I also get that strangers opinions don't always hold water, especially on the internet. I hope you make the best decision for your kid on the way, and truly take what the Dr. said seriously.

Quote:
I also have a question… after being off of subutex for 10 days (on codeine for 4 of them) and taking the .5 yesterday and .25 today AM I STARTING FROM SQUARE ONE?? I guess it does not really matter because I have to get this done but I just need some hope. (or people's true experience) I trusted the place I went to to help me and it did nothing but prolong this nightmare. I can't change that but I have to move forward and now.


That worry's me. I will be here for you Regardless. Encouragement can help relieve a lot of stress, and give a lot of hope. I know this all too well.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:30 pm 
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h0pe wrote:
Hey NorCal. I can relate with you in many ways, and understand how Sub can leave you feeling Dull, or lifeless. I also understand wanting to quit Now, Regardless of what others say or what stands in your way. I would love to encourage you through this, but knowing that you have a kid on the way puts me in a weird place . I can tell your intelligent, and you understand sub isn't for you. I'm not a Doctor, or a professional regarding addiction. I also get that strangers opinions don't always hold water, especially on the internet. I hope you make the best decision for your kid on the way, and truly take what the Dr. said seriously.

Quote:
I also have a question… after being off of subutex for 10 days (on codeine for 4 of them) and taking the .5 yesterday and .25 today AM I STARTING FROM SQUARE ONE?? I guess it does not really matter because I have to get this done but I just need some hope. (or people's true experience) I trusted the place I went to to help me and it did nothing but prolong this nightmare. I can't change that but I have to move forward and now.


That worry's me. I will be here for you Regardless. Encouragement can help relieve a lot of stress, and give a lot of hope. I know this all too well.



Thank you for your response, I appreciate it. I love the quote on your signature it is so very true, especially for me right now. Thank you again.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:12 pm 
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I just wanted to let anyone out there who is in the same boat I am in, who has doc's who want them off sub and who personally want to get off sub, it is possible.

I am feeling better everyday!! I am so excited that there will be NO chance of him being born with NAS… went to the OB today and everything looks better than perfect!!! YAY!!!!! I am still really tired and have some anxiety but it's uphill now..

Good luck to everyone on there paths and know that you don't only have one option.. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:10 pm 
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Yeeeeeeeeeeah! haha. Amazing post. :D .. It's nothing but Uphill from hear! Keep it up. I'm happy for you!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:01 pm 
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I am not going to try to talk you out of anything nor try to tell you what is right or wrong. What I will suggest is that you just be honest - not only with us but with yourself. BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF.

In one post you write: "If at any point I find myself not getting enough rest or food, or anything important I have gotten back on a small dose."

In another post you write: "I was so exhausted from 10 days of no sleep and slightly detoxing the whole time I had to get some relief."

How do these two statement square up? 10 days of no sleep is doing more damage to your baby than suboxone is. That's the point dr. j was making. You are telling yourself one thing but doing another - unless your first statement was meant to read "I've gotten back on a small dose... After 10 days of no sleep.

You now wrote "I am still really tired and have some anxiety but it's uphill now." I really hope you mean down hill rather than up hill but my point again is being really tired is not good for the baby.

By your statements, this is your third time stopping suboxone which then has to mean you have relapsed back to opiates at least twice in the past. That was while not pregnant with all of the struggles hormonal and otherwise that come along with it. What will prevent relapse this time?

Finally you write :"I personally do not want to be on this medication anymore..." That is pretty clear. It is clear what YOU WANT. It's just not only about you anymore. It's now also about what is best for your baby.

I wish you and your soon to be born baby all of the best no natter what you do. Just please be honest with yourself. Just from your own comments, word for word, I'm not so sure you are.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:28 am 
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donh wrote:
I am not going to try to talk you out of anything nor try to tell you what is right or wrong. What I will suggest is that you just be honest - not only with us but with yourself. BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF.

In one post you write: "If at any point I find myself not getting enough rest or food, or anything important I have gotten back on a small dose."

In another post you write: "I was so exhausted from 10 days of no sleep and slightly detoxing the whole time I had to get some relief."

How do these two statement square up? 10 days of no sleep is doing more damage to your baby than suboxone is. That's the point dr. j was making. You are telling yourself one thing but doing another - unless your first statement was meant to read "I've gotten back on a small dose... After 10 days of no sleep.

You now wrote "I am still really tired and have some anxiety but it's uphill now." I really hope you mean down hill rather than up hill but my point again is being really tired is not good for the baby.

By your statements, this is your third time stopping suboxone which then has to mean you have relapsed back to opiates at least twice in the past. That was while not pregnant with all of the struggles hormonal and otherwise that come along with it. What will prevent relapse this time?

Finally you write :"I personally do not want to be on this medication anymore..." That is pretty clear. It is clear what YOU WANT. It's just not only about you anymore. It's now also about what is best for your baby.

I wish you and your soon to be born baby all of the best no natter what you do. Just please be honest with yourself. Just from your own comments, word for word, I'm not so sure you are.



So, I am not sure you read my post thoroughly… I did go back on for a few days after the "10 days of no rest" so one "point" you are trying to make. I did not "relapse" on opiods I actually have amost 5 years sober, I feel off a 4 STORY roof 3.5 years ago and it was the only thing my doctors and I felt safe for me to manage myself as far as medications go, I never took anywhere NEAR the prescribed dose and when it came time to taper all the way off I did not even hold my own meds.. I was typically on a 1-2mg does.. most I was ever on was 4mg.

This medication changes the person I am.. foggy, no motivation, blah blah… However, in the last two days I have run 2 miles a day (6 months pregnant). I am feeling about 90% better...I have also been working with my OB on a DAILY basis and thanks to all the help my my doctors, sponsor and support in the "rooms" (AA) I have done this and safely. As I said, I don't judge anyone who decides to stay on it.. but getting off it can be done. They do not have any studies to show long term effects on babies and and at least now I know that I 4 more months with NOTHING in my body. It was the only medication I was on and only 1mg… he look PERFECT and I am so glad I got off that crap. If it works for others than good for you, but not for this person. I wanted a healthy non WD'ing baby and my old self back… which my friends and family have already noticed the difference. (and I have noticed a lot of others having the same complaint about it changing their personality)

No judgement to those who want to stay on it, but to me that would have been the easy way and this was my burden to bear and now it is done.

Good luck to you and I made no attacks and asked for no judgement.. so thanks for doing just the opposite. Which if you read my post I pretty much explain everything you mention.

Take Care…


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:32 pm 
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Update….

Three weeks off with a two day 0.5 "slip" if you can call it that, I just needed some relief and rest per my OB/GYN.

I go to 1-2 meetings a day, meet with my sponsor at least twice a week and am doing a lot better. All that is left are the annoying symptoms of WD that I know will take a little while longer to subside.. a little achy and some insomnia along with mild anxiety and bouts of depression (which could also be the hormones)

This can be done, under medical supervision and support from my AA family and boyfriend… everyday gets better and I know with 100% certainty that I will be able to take my baby home when he is born in June… what a miracle. This is by far the hardest thing I have ever done but so very worth it… he is doing better than great and thriving. I am so proud of myself.. I can honestly say that I now can wake up everyday with no regrets about putting a chemical in my body that could have possibly harmed my chilled for weeks to months after birth..

Good luck to everyone.. there are choices.. just so that is known!!!!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:02 pm 
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I hope all is still well with u and baby. I am 15 wks 4 days and I am 5 days off of suboxone. Yay. I wish u the best.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:12 pm 
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Hey there… How are you feeling? Good thing you did it a bit sooner than I did I am cutting it close.. I am still feeling some lethargy, anxiety, the usual PAW stuff… how high of a does where you taking.. feel free to contact me for support.

Good luck, you can do it.. I have several friends who work in Hospitals as Nurse's and Doc's and I have 2 very well known OB/GYN's an they say the majority of babies born on sub will have nasty NAS.. more like 70% or much more…

but if you find the need to stay on or your doctor wants you to of course follow their direction..

Hang in there and let me know how you are feeling..

:)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:54 pm 
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@ Norcal- I just want to congratulate you.. I agree with you, I believe your decision WAS for your baby.. At the end of the day this is your child and it is YOUR job to take care of that baby and this was what you felt was right. I think that's awesome! I have read multiple stories of babies being born and having to be put on methadone.. I couldn't even imagine... The sad part is that alot of these woman are being told that the babies are going to be just "Fine" and won't have any "Issues".. Then that's not the case at all... I'm not bashing anyone here either, I am simply saying I understand how you feel. I have been putting alot of thought into have another child. I refuse to be on anything while pregnant. When you are pregnant this is not just your life anymore. I also understand that if someone is batterling a horrible addiction and become pregnant that it would be in there best interest to stick with the suboxone vs the opiates. I just say if you believe you had the support and were strong enough to get off the subs without relapse (And you are the only one who will know that you are or are not ready) then great job on your part!! I didn't find your posts confusing, I could understand what you were trying to say. Keep up the good work and congrats! If you have the baby then decide to go back then that's a personal choice. Whatever works best for you! Keep up the good work!


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