It is currently Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:51 am



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:21 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:02 pm
Posts: 1002
Do you guys think this is worth receiving a warning for?

TeeJay wrote:
hatmaker510 wrote:
For members who weren't here over the last year or two, Dr Junig has gone over this and has written about it in his blog. There is zero evidence that suboxone does any damage to one's teeth. Teeth issues take YEARS to develop. Like has been said previously, mostly it's due to drugs that cause dry mouth - that does more damage that most would think. That and the neglect that they suffer while we're in active addiction.


There is also no evidence that Suboxone doesn't cause tooth decay. In fact there have been no studies into it at all.

So really the jury is still out.


Also, Dr. J is instituting a rule that people cannot disagree with moderators.

Thoughts?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:12 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:48 pm
Posts: 1346
Location: oregon coast
HI TEEJAY

I clearly, I mean pretty FREAKING clearly, told you it was a PATTERN
PATTERN
of attacking ,,, not ONE POST

isnt that what I said?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


Im also pretty FREAKING SURE I asked you to act in a PROFFESIONAL manner and PM a moderator or ADMINISTRATOR if you had an issues with YOUR PERSONAL PM


And just so EVERYONE knows

the new rule from, yes DR J,,, will say something along these lines

HIS WORDS EXACTLY..........................
One thing that stood out was that all forums should have the rule that confronting, dissing, or insulting moderators should result in banning, no questions asked.


NOW,
since we are taking a POLE

do ANY of YOU think I would warn someone WITHOUT good reason???????????????????????????


thanks for your support

_________________
anyone can give up,
its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:32 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:48 pm
Posts: 1346
Location: oregon coast
I may not agree with everything hatmaker says.

I may have even been able to see YOUR SIDE of what your trying to say,, maybe even agreed with you???????????? now we'll never know

this isnt the place to discuss it.

this is just a perfect example of you doing JUST enough, to 'not do anything wrong'
and make ME look like the asshole.

thats fine


Asshole of the day,,,, goes to..............................

drum role


[marq=right]***AMBER***[/marq]

_________________
anyone can give up,
its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:50 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:47 am
Posts: 1496
That's some interesting editing there TJ.

I'm wondering what your purpose is in posting what you posted. I understand if you think it was wrong or unfair that you got a warning. It's your right to disagree. But why present a portion of the PM you received in the most inflammatory way possible?

Are you trying to prove a point?

Do you need some people to come in here and rally to your cause? Why else would you solicit the opinions of people to whom you haven't even told the whole story?

I'm really curious to know, because I honestly like you and I've told you more than once that I think your participation here is valuable. Your unique perspective has often given me food for thought and your feedback and ideas have informed decisions I've made as a moderator and as a member.

So what is it? Are you just having a bit of fun? Or is there some issue that you'd like to discuss? Maybe you are trying to test the limits of just how "free" the Freestyle forum is? Maybe you honestly want to have a come-to-jesus discussion about the shortcomings of the moderating process here? If so, do you really think this is a productive way to go about it?

I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

_________________
You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf.

-Jack Kornfield


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:21 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:43 am
Posts: 1019
Location: Buffalo New York
Lol banned for disagreeing with a mod now that's some funny shit. If that's how a forum is ran than you will never get the true help/truth you need. All it would take is one post from a mod to ruin any thread that's debate able and even if that mod is wrong that info sticks simply because nobody would say anything in fear of getting banned for disagreeing! My emotionless thread is a perfect example of what I'm saying. Since one mod got upset and disagreed more than 14 people off the top of my head sent me a message saying I agree and I'm dealing with this side effect but was to afraid to post because of how this mod and lynch crew attacked anyone who disagreed with them.

I don't see what TJ did wrong but proved a point by saying yea there is no evidence but there also was no evidence to back the other claim that it doesn't cause tooth decay. I feel like the members here found there freedom in this section but now certain people don't like it so they want to change it back.

_________________
Yes these drugs saved our life's. But does that mean we have to give the rest of our life to these drugs?


Last edited by Bboy42287 on Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:27 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:02 pm
Posts: 1002
Just wait a second now.

Nowhere did I mention anyone's name at all in this whole thing. Nor did I paste any excerpt from a PM. I just quoted the post that led to me getting a warning. I also think it's fair that everyone knows what's okay and what's not okay.

I never meant to "oust" anyone, esp not Amber. Having been a mod once I know that a warning is a group decision and the person that gives it is just the messenger.

But I think it's pretty poor to give me a warning for disagreeing with a few things Hatmaker says.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: I will bite............
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:56 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:04 pm
Posts: 391
Yes people are going to test the Freestyle and so far it is just like any other section on here...........I am not diagreeing with a moderator just saying that adding this section and say it is going to be unmoderated and then later said by a moderator to an extint............

Sounds like some people are trying to seperate themselves from the forum and is taking the side door out.........who can blame him...........anyone else notice Dr J no longer has his picture posted at the end of this forum........

I get it and understand it. I am just not sure why the modertors are ready to jump on anyone that puts something on this forum. Broaden the rules about what can and can't be posted and then we will know as oppposed to getting a PM about tooth decay.............My dentist says that there is studies being done that suboxone causes tooth decay........I will give you his name but I don't think he is a member so not sure he can be deleted. I guess I can because I told you about him........

Good day........

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:08 am 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:10 pm
Posts: 231
Location: pacific nw
Maybe TJ should have adressed this in a PM but I do think it's wierd/wrong that he would get a warning for that post. I know TJ is really into getting the facts right. I totally respect him for his drive for knowledge, sense of humor, honesty, and willingness to share it all with us.

I don't know what to think about banning people who are "confronting, dissing, or insulting" moderators. (as Amber wrote were Dr. J's terms) Who determines the definition of these words? I mean, for example some people get "insulted" if you tell them they misspelled a word. Some people get "insulted" if you say "Jesus is my Lord and Savior." Its also easy to insult people over the internet who can not see your body language, facial expression, or hear tone in your voice. I guess if there are going to be new rules about what you can say to a moderator, they better be very clear or they will be bullshit.

And Amber, for your poll, I think you are awesome and would never ban anyone unless you had a good reason! I know being a moderator is hard and thank you all for the work you do.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Rules
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:14 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:04 pm
Posts: 391
Here is a copy of Subdoc's post on the new Freestyle section............Nowhere does it say disagreeing with a moderator in this section is reasong for a warning or banning........

Freestyle


I've been noticing the general increase in tension throughout the forum. I suppose conflict is inevitable, wherever you have a large group of people from diverse backgrounds, with a wide range of opinions an personalities.

I don't know of a way to eliminate conflict. But I want to make a few general points-- and introduce a new section of the forum. The new section, 'Freestyle', is a place where people can go to discuss issues without concern for 'rules'-- with a few general caveats. As people know, my primary goal has been to keep the forum from degenerating into a cesspool of anger, where arguments are fueled by negative stigma or misinformation. The main 'rule' for the forum has been to respect each other's positions, including each individual's decision regarding treatment of his/her illness. Unfortunately, this rule-- which is intended to OPEN discussion by encouraging free expression-- has been blamed for squelching discussion in some cases.

The new section is for open debate-- including taking positions on whether long-term Suboxone treatment is a good or bad idea. I encourage people to take those discussions to the new area- and try to keep the other areas RELATIVELY free from turmoil.

Other points:
- realize that the moderators are unpaid, under-appreciated volunteers, who try to keep the peace only out of interest in maintaining a place for discussion about buprenorphine treatment.
- Nothing here is meant to substitute for medical care. Discussions here are intended to provoke discussions with your physician. Do NOT take anything from the forum as 'medical advice.'
- Avoid cuss-words, including in the unmoderated area. Excessive profanity WILL be removed, as it is discovered.
- Be nice. Try to write as if responding to a friend. That will help keep the forum busy, happy, and healthy. Nobody wants to read threads that are filled with angry, personal insults.

Thanks!


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:06 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:47 am
Posts: 1496
Here is what Dr Junig had to say:

suboxdoc wrote:
Today I read an article about maintaining forums. One thing that stood out was that all forums should have the rule that confronting, dissing, or insulting moderators should result in banning, no questions asked.

I am fine with that; people are doing too much arguing, and your job is tough enough. If you want to give a warning, that's fine too-- but don't stoop to the level of arguing a point if you don't want to. Let's just say 'arguing with moderators results in permanent banishment-- please stay on topic'.



Notice it doesn't say that DISAGREEING with a moderator will get you banned. We have had plenty of discussions around here where we've all voiced differences of opinion about things and it's been fine.

My take on what Dr J is saying here is that if I have to come into a thread and moderate - ie, tell someone that they are violating a forum rule - and then they get confrontational about it or argue with me about it, I can ban them. I don't HAVE to ban them, but I could.

I agree with Orange doll that the rule needs to be stated more clearly and that is something we are working on in the mod forum. If you guys have suggestions, I'm all ears.

I would also like everyone to know that banning members is not something that I take lightly. I am all for giving people the benefit of the doubt and I often go to bat defending people or advocating taking a wait-and-see approach when things get intense on the forum. I really don't think this new rule is going to change that.

_________________
You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf.

-Jack Kornfield


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:18 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:02 pm
Posts: 1002
I just wanna reiterate that this thread is in no way an attack on Amber or any moderator. I really hold no bad feeling anymore for getting the warning. I was a bit angry at the time, but I actually think posting about it on here has helped me vent. If anything it's a post just like any other vent post about what's happening in a persons life.

I kinda think it's important that people know where the line is drawn. Repeatedly disagreeing with one moderator is not acceptable, but I'm fairly sure occasional disagreements are okay.

I also just wanna clarify that when I said in another thread that I suspected bad mouthing a moderator in the Freestyle forum would be canned ... that's exactly what I meant. I wasn't aiming that comment at any one moderator, or threatening to do it. I just was unsure whether such a comment would be moderated in what's labelled as an "un-moderated forum". Nothing more needs to be read into it. It's as if people have read some kinda meaning into it that isn't there, and taken that interpretation and put it against a few disagreements I've had with one moderator's posts and rolled it all up in one package.

I personally think that overall Hatmaker is an asset to the forum. This is why when I felt like there wasn't enough room for both of us moderating I chose to bail and let her take the reins. I honestly couldn't be stuffed greeting all the newcomers like she does, which is a real important part of this forum and sometimes can feel futile given so many come and go. So props to her and all the others who put in effort to do this.

It's pretty obvious now that this forum is not a democracy. I don't know where I got the idea it could be, given it's privately owned by someone and he sets the rules which are enforced by the moderators. If the mods wanna make Dr. J the final authority on all topics, then who are we to argue?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:16 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:45 pm
Posts: 833
i just got "1" question". why are my teeth healthy'r on suboxone :lol:

_________________
Humor is one of the best qualities in life of intelligents breeze1.wmv utube untitled 26 (2) utube just me and my music


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:26 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:03 pm
Posts: 1545
People.... c'mon! I feel like Rodney King-- Can't we all get along?

I am not a professional forum runner; this forum is completely home-grown, and I am learning, as we go along, what might be helpful and what might be harmful to the community.

Understand, first, that I have no agenda other than finding the truth. I do not want to be the 'final authority'. But at times, if I see things that are truly harmful to others-- such as scaring people away from a treatment that works, for fear of things that are not an issue-- I will speak up. I do not claim to be smarter than anyone else-- but I do have a couple resources that are helpful at distinguishing internet rumor from science. My primary tool for that is access to the medical library at the Medical College of Wisconsin, where I can use OVID and other science databases to search the current literature, online.

The tooth issue as an example--- there is a difference between the opinion of one (or even 20) dentists, vs. what information has been reported to the FDA and analyzed for accuracy. I don't write off the opinion of the dentists-- but I know that ANY person, myself included, can and is fooled, often, by one's own experience. We also tend to see what we expect to see, which makes individual observations even less valuable.

I've said this before-- I will try to state, when I chime in, whether the info is my opinion, guess, experience, etc, vs something reported in the literature. I really encourage everyone to think in those terms; after all, that is how anyone creating policy, deciding on drug approvals, or appealing lawsuits is going to come to the truth of those matters.

On the moderator issue... as I said, I am new to this. I did not even know what a 'troll' was until reading an article last week-- for those who don't know, look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forum_troll

Please, when posting, ask yourself-- 'am I a troll?' The people who run large forums-- much larger than this one--- emphasize that 'trolls must be dealt with harshly.' In other words, the advice from successful forums is that if someone attacks the forum, or anyone who represents the forum, that person must be banned-- otherwise the entire forum becomes over-run with petty arguments. I've been reluctant to 'go there'; the freestyle section was an effort to allow some steam to blow off. I didn't realize that people would attack each other.

Please help me stick to the purpose of this forum-- which is to educate people starting buprenorphine, to support people starting or STOPPING buprenorphine, to provide a database of the problems with buprenorphine or Suboxone, etc. The interpersonal stuff is a distraction for the people who need help.

I have NO interest in defending Suboxone. Most of you should know, by now, that I am no big fan of Reckitt Benckiser. I have NO interest in keeping people on Suboxone; my practice is full, and frankly, I wish I could take on some new patients, as there are many people out there in need of help. At the same time, I do not want to be part of spreading false information; after all, that type of thing has real consequences. Read the story of silicone breast implants and how the entire industry was brought down by rumor alone.

If people have questions about where I stand, send me an email and ask. and again-- can we TRY to get along, and keep on topic?


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject: LOL!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:21 pm 
Hatmaker an asset to this forum?!?! U most definitely dont know the real hatmaker.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Freestyle
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:16 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:04 pm
Posts: 391
To the moderators and Dr J

More than likely when we saw this section come up we thought perhaps this was an area where we could talk freely and unmoderated. It is clear that we can't do that. You know we all have egos and some think I know way more than that person. But the bottom line is I found this site and spent an entire weekend reading post on here to determine whether suboxone was right for me. I chose to do it..........I got on sub 3 1/2 yrs ago. I have flipped flopped about where I stand on long term and some of the side effects. I have disagreed with some members and even some moderators but the bottom line I have been a support to this site.I have had 3 sub doctors and in all three cases I have sent them to this site to understand sub the way I understand it.

This forum is part of my recovery........just like AA. It has saved me many times from making bad decesions and we have seen people come and go over the last couple of years. Some are passionate, some just want to play games and some are just haters. The bottom line is I take sub for my disease. This is the only outlet I know that I can share my experience with others that have some of the same issues.

Whatever the moderators or some say on here that I disagree with ...........really is none of my business on how they feel. It is just like AA...........You take what works for you and leave the rest for everyone else. I believe Dr J had good intentions on starting this site and that some of us including myself have made it difficult for the moderators to do their jobs. I am not going to do that anymore........If I have nothing positive to offer.........I am going to move on. If I do without hurting or dissing anyone then that is my goal. I am lucky to be alive .....I have read some threads lately that just break my heart most recently laddertripper. That could be anyone of us on any given day. It is just not worth it to try and be right..........Who am I anyway. I am an alcoholic and drug addict. I should be humble in the back of the room and work on me...........

We are lucky to have this site to our disposal.........let's not blow it with our own or my EGO...........

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: LOL!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:21 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:02 pm
Posts: 1002
nemesis wrote:
Hatmaker an asset to this forum?!?! U most definitely dont know the real hatmaker.


Trolling by definition.

Image

I'm kinda over this topic now. But on the topic of tooth decay. It's been said by Hatmaker and Dr. J that tooth decay takes years to develop. How can we know whether Suboxone plays a role when there's virtually zero studies on Suboxone that go for longer than 3-6 months? There really needs to be a long term study looking into it before anyone can say one way or the other.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:12 pm 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:01 pm
Posts: 34
They need some extensive research into this before saying for a fact wether or not suboxone makes ur teeth fall out. I sure hope it doesnt!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Trolls
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:50 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:35 am
Posts: 2803
Location: Southwest
We have dealt with nemesis for now. If he/she changes user names hopefully we'll catch it.



Rule

_________________
Don't take yourself so damn seriously


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:31 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:45 pm
Posts: 833
whats this tooth problem any way!! every one knows that suboxone can cause a sweet tooth.
i think taking better care of my teeth help a lot.
so i'm getting along with suboxone as we all should, and what we are on for the first f'n place :o

_________________
Humor is one of the best qualities in life of intelligents breeze1.wmv utube untitled 26 (2) utube just me and my music


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: tooth decay
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:57 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:03 pm
Posts: 1545
Just to clarify.... I did not say Suboxone does not cause tooth decay; I said that there is a difference between anecdotal reports vs studies, or collections of reports-- such as what the FDA does for every medication.... and to date, there is no meaningful evidence that Suboxone causes tooth decay. If I worded it differently three years ago, forgive me-- but this is what I MEANT to say. I would say this, by the way, in response to many of the issues that come up about Suboxone... or about SSRI's, or other psych meds. For some reason, every psych med has a huge gallery of people claiming to be harmed from taking the medication.

I do suspect that in some cases, people take poor care of their teeth for years--- and don't notice the cavities until going on Suboxone and having the time, money, and interest to pay attention. People actively using tend to overlook tooth problems, and other things-- for a severe example, go to google images and enter 'krokodil'.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group