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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:19 am 
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As I write this at 8am my head is pounding and my eyes very hazy. After taking my 8mg of bupe this will clear and I will live the day as an zombie. Forgetting lots of things, unable to.focus, snappy and afraid. This is groundhog day for me after 2 years on bupe.

I am a professional who got caught up in illegal prescription painkillers and benzo's after a relationship break up and being a single parent 7 years ago. Mostly Oxy and Diazepam. Plus anything else on the web. My doctor would give me oxy over the phone. I just said id broke a rib and a friend gave me oxy. it worked well. He gave me 4 weeks supply. 40mg a day. A guy I knew got 80mg a day for his leg and sold them to me for £6 each.Too damn easy. These older docs just dont know how addictive they are.

I got off oxy with Kratom and lots of benzos. The kratom withdrawels were as bad after long term use. I have tried everything and just circled. SSRI's, baclofen, preg, trams, I always thought there must be a magic cure. There is not! They all mess with your brain.

Until I admitted my problem and sort help. I was sick of it. I always had confidence issues and anxiety and the drugs were a crutch.

The bupe at first was a miricle! I never relapsed.I reshaped my life to some sort of normality. It wasnt easy but it could be done. Alcohol had no effect I never got that 2 pint buzz. I thought this was a good thing.

As time went on I noticed some really worrying side effects. Memory loss, anxiety, bad eyesight, irrational and a very foggy head. Every morning I wake up is hell. Until I take my bupe. Sleep is bad, really scary dreams, sweats, my legs ache. No sex drive.

I hardly ever see my drug worker, they never advise I taper. Im on weekly pickup. The services are poorly funded and Im just another number whos off the illegal drugs. My doc is helping taper on diazepam. Im down to 6mg/day.

I have luckily never been out of work. How, I dont know.

This bupe is really really concerning, I have researched in depth and read lots of simliar storys. I can honestly say I'm more or as unhappy on long term bupe than I was on the Oxy and benzos.Thats bad! Theres no highs and lows just a continous drone, just getting by each day and trying so hard to make things work out. Once in a blue moon I will feel emotions I used too. Love, empathy, happy, sad, excited.A song may trigger an emotion for a few seconds. A hug with my new wife or son. Then bupe strips it all and I undestand why with brain chemsitry. This is a very powerful drug that will take your soul away. if you let it!

Bupe is good I'm sure for the short term. A few months, taper and get clean for life.PLEASE DONT STAY ON IT!!!

It is awful long term. It does the same to my brain as the oxy but no high. It does stop overdoses and deaths, so serves a purpose. Its a box ticked for the goverment and drug services. Most docs know little about it. Please be careful. I am still an addict to bupe. I'm still not right and have a long way to go.

I am tapering 2mg every 2wks on my own. I want off of this soul destroying drug, no matter how tough.

Can anyone relate to these long term symptoms? Been there and came through? I'm worried Ive damaged my brain for life. I assure you this is not just in my head. Bupe is nasty!

I foolishly took a 50mg Naltrexone tablet a few months ago. Dont ask me why! It sends you into precipated withdrawels in 20 minutes. You can pay £10K to have this done by a rehab clinic for opiate addication. They put you in a coma and give you the naltrexone. It is too dangerous to do awake or at home. It is a theory to detox in a day or 2.

If a non opiate addict takes this it will have no effect.

I spent 2 days in A@E on a drip and benzos, my wife found me after 5 hours in my home convulsing, puking. My skin felt on fire. Couldnt even say a word. So so painful it cannot be explained. If I could of moved and had a gun I would of put it to my head and pulled the trigger. It was unreal!!! This was bupe only!

That alone tells you how strong, addictive bupe is. Dont think you are clean on this please. You are not! It is just a stepping stone.Good luck and please try and get off it in under 6 months and dont ever go back to what got you on it in the first place!!!!. D


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:09 am 
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Hello,

I'm sorry you're having problems. Most people ..really the vast majority...do very well on buprenorphine on a long term basis. I'm not doubting your symptoms, but I would ask you to examine some of your assumptions which I'd say are based on faulty logic.

First you mention that your were dong amazingly well on bupe. Time went on and you began to have problems. But why necessarily assume it's your medication. The symptoms you describe sound very much
like depression, which often involved a great deal of anxiety. Of course it could be something else. I"m not a doctor and even if I were there's no way I could tell you based on a forum post what's causing your difficulties.

I also think it's important to address what you refer to as your in depth research indicating many have dire problems similar to yours. These problems don't show up in the literature as far as I know (though of course I could be wrong) , doctors aren't aware of them, and we don't see them on the forum. Of course sometimes people have problems. But yours sound pretty unique (vision problems etc.).

I just want to gently suggest that you're looking for stories that match your own. And this is the Internet. YOu're always going to find scary anectdotal tales of woe ....about just about anything....if you go in search of them.

If I were you I'd make appointments with a doctor. Or another doctor if you'v already seen one. I'd also see a psychiatrist to examine whether or not you're suffering from clinical depression. Are you taking other medications? IN other words, search and search hard...to the very best of your ability before you put yourself at risk for going back on drugs.

I"m not saying it's impossible your symptoms are caused by bupe.Maybe you have some sort of rare allergy. I'm just saying that it's unlikely in my very humble opinion.


P.S. Just to add, vision problems can be caused by anxiety. All sorts of weird physical problems can.
I know this because I've had anxiety problems myself. Blurred vision is not that uncommon.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:48 am 
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Thats quite a post. We ve seen it before,heard here before. I suppose out there in the world bupe can have an effect that is unwanted.
There are issues in each persons life however. If you believe bupe is causing all these problems then yes, jump off as soon as you can. You won't have the safety net sub has given you these past two years but atleast you ll be drugfree. But how not to use afterwards, idk, thats the battle . One that is lost mostly.
If your so foggy,and i get that feeling over time,then drop your dose. You will feel better at 4mgs,try 6mgs for a week. See if it works better for you.
Ive been on Suboxone for 6 years. Many of what you ve described ive not felt. Sun treatment is loug term. Less than a year always leads to useing again.

From what ive read your not in the States. I can't know how tbey do things in GB, but talk to your dr if you can...


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:11 am 
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Hello Fresh start,

After reading your post, I really feel for you. just a guess, but you seemed extremely depressed while you were on Oxy and benzos and the depression is STILL there while you are on bup. I would try to treat your depression and then the addiction problem together.

8mg of bup seems like a lot . I would have to agree with razor and decrease your amount and then see how you feel. I also would keep a journal when you do drop your medication and check in with your self to see if you are improving.

I have always thought that the people that have Negative feelings about Subxone really do Succeed the best when getting off of it. Because, the Negative side effects decrease and you start to Feel "better" the lower mg you are on.

If you do taper off the medication, I would seriously consider seeking treatment for depression. I too suffer from it and I feel like you suffer from it too.

Just a thought... I wish you the best.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:26 pm 
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I agree with much of what you say raudy, as usual. Except when you say that 8 mg is a pretty high dose I'm not so sure.. Dr. Junig in fact recommends 16 as the best insurance against cravings. It might be 8 up to 16, but it's definitely up there. Many, many people take 8 or more and as far as I can tell do quite well, even long term.

The poster feels he's a long term sub patient, but it depends on how you look at it. 2 years in the land of recovery is still a baby. IN any case, as I also said above, this sounds like depression with much anxiety.

All that said, I agree with you and razor it's a reasonable idea to cut his dosage to see if that helps.

I too have suffered not so much depression, but anxiety. Especially when severe it can have all sorts of physical manifestations, including vision problems. Also long term anxiety is associated with
psychosomatic issues. Again I know because I've been there. (Like you when it comes to depression )

Best wishes,
G/


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:05 pm 
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Hey Fresh,
Responding to your post in order...

'This is groundhog day for me after 2 years on bupe.'
Interesting you Brits celebrate or are even aware of Ground Hog day.

'I always thought there must be a magic cure.'
There is none, takes work, takes responsibility, takes knowing you are accountable for your recovery. Bup takes you out of the horrid life of active addiction. That's it. Bup is no magic cure. There's no magic cure for addiction. Takes you accepting YOU need to do the work. That's when and where the real improvement and life improvement happens. A wonderful life awaits you and any of us that are able to make that first step, where we truly realize we are accountable for our recovery. Expecting another person or circumstances or a drug to 'fix' us will be a major fail. Be there. Done that. Recovery work while on bup yields amazing wonderful outcomes.

'I always had confidence issues and anxiety and the drugs were a crutch.'
Yep, that's why many of us got here. Until you work on your anxiety and depression issues that got you to using/abusing, they will remain and incite internal angst, cause emotional pain leading you right back out to active addiction.

'My doc is helping taper on diazepam. Im down to 6mg/day.'
Glad you're tapering.

'This is a very powerful drug that will take your soul away. if you let it!'
No, not true. All bup does is take you out of active addiction by stopping cravings and obsessions to use which in turn allowed you to remarry and keep your job. Maybe stopped you from losing your $$$ and collecting a few felonies. It cannot and does not take your soul away. Doesn't have that power. If you feel you've lost who you are - then that's on you - not bup.

'I have researched in depth and read lots of similar storys.'
No, those other sites don't count as research. Those sites are full of folks who haven't accepted responsibility for their own recovery nor taken any action to improve their lives. They're just POd that bup didn't cure them and make their life perfect. I'm fascinated w this crazy wrong perception toward bup. Why do folks expect bup to cure and make their life perfect? Why is bup expected to be a cure? No drug can do that. Not possible. Why do folks blame bup when its really addiction that's to blame? Why not work on what got them into using/abusing?

'I foolishly took a 50mg Naltrexone tablet a few months ago.'
Given you knew of its extremely painful consequences, seems like you were sabotaging yourself or administering a bit of self harm.

Great responds by the others. While 8mg is a good dose to stop cravings, that doesn't seem to be your issue. Keep lowering you dose as you may feel better.

Hope you start some recovery work soon! Its that important!! Wishing you my best, P

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:25 pm 
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Right on,right on Mr. P!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Pelican 100% right on!

One thing I want to advise u of FreshStart, it doesn't sit well to tell ppl that they aren't clean on suboxone. If u think ur not clean on suboxone, that's ok, but don't tell others "don't think you are clean on this please, you are not". We don't judge anyone's recovery here and personally I consider myself clean on buprenorphine and that's my choice, I don't think it's cool to say. So please speak for urself not for everyone else.

Also, saying that u are as unhappy or more on buprenorphine than u were on oxy or benzo is hard to understand. If ur comparing ur suboxone treatment to being worse than active addiction, then why stay on it for 2 yrs? Nobody is forcing this medicine on u. U can take another route, why stay if ur so very miserable.

I think u should educate urself about suboxone through Dr.Junig's Talkzone, instead of recommending ppl to use suboxone 6 months or less. It is recommended to stay on this treatment for at least a yr or longer to better ur chances against relapse. Like pelican said, ur knowledge is coming from the wrong places online. Some ppl have chosen to stay on this medication for life and there's nothing wrong about that.


"This is a very powerful drug that will take ur soul" do u realize this is a pro suboxone forum, I'm not sure u realize that honestly. Most of us owe suboxone for helping us have a second chance at living again. Of course this medicine is a tool, addicts still have to work their recovery every day.

I've been on suboxone for 5 yrs and I don't have any side effects like u have. I am a very functioning mother, in a wonderful relationship, I laugh, I cry when I'm sad and I'm nowhere near a zombie. The ppl in my life notice what a better place I am in today compared to how I was before. Haven't u considered that there could be other issues going on with ur health that's not related to suboxone? I don't understand how u can blame every last negative thing happening on this medicine. I really hope u can read all these comments and be more open minded about this treatment and ur opinions to ppl that it has changed their life for the better. I don't think ur brain is damaged, I understand ur scared or upset, hopefully u can find support and comfort here on this forum, just tone down on the soul stealing not clean stuff ok :)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:59 am 
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Thank you everyone and I do hear and observe all the comments.

Us brits do use the term "ground hog day" only due to the film :)

Ok, at first i was 16mg. 6 months later 12. The last few days 8 and yesterday on 6mg. This morning I feel much better! No pounding head and sickness. Ill try 6 again today.

Maybe the lower dose is the answer for me. I just need to keep an eye on tbe W/D's. I do want off.

I was a bit hard on bupe Im sorry, my life is nothing like it was before on opiates and benzos. Im also really happy to hear the sucsess stories.

One thing I am sure on and again in my opionion is Bupe does make you emotionally less reactive. It blocks the recepters where all those feelings go. Its also extremely addictive and a bitch to get off. Whether I am still an addict or not is questionable. Sorry I have to face facts.

I am very likey still suffering depression or paws. I know I need to solve that too. Its a tricky one. The bupe certianly gives me memory loss, aching legs and a foggy head. small price to pay maybe.

My job supports my family, wife and son and is mentally demanding. This is where I really notice it and I worry I cant do my job. I even forget my bosses name and Ive known him years. Like a mental block comes up. Its not age! I hope not. It could be the prior drug use.

There are medical studies with bupe for speech and memory impairment and they are concerning. It is a relitively new drug. Saying that and again in my view it beats methodone hands down.

To the poster regarding me self harming with the naltrexone I didnt do my homework on it. It was after I found out. I had researched "low dose naltrexone" helping memory etc. Like 0.01mg. I was a dick! I read it and had a box in the cupboard for 5 years. I thought its harmless Ill take a whole tab. Please do not ever do something as mindless and stupid as this.

After the hell I suffered and lying in a hospital bed my brain had been stripped of all the bupe. I was a tearful and emortional wreck. For what i'd put my wife and family through mostly. What also worried me was how strong and how addicted I really was to bupe. What is it really doing to my mind and body.

I asked the lead doctor if I could now stop my bupe and stick it out as id suffered the worst and the pain had subsiding. He said no I just restart the bupe, which I did and of course I felt better. It took a good few weeks to start to feel half normal again.I sometimes wish i had toughed it out as nothing could be any worse than that 72hrs. Bupe is just so unbelievbly strong!!!! powerhouse. They told me it wasnt addictive at the clinic. Those WD's were worse than any oxy wd or even high use benzos wd.

I also apologise about saying get off it in 6mths. I dont now I just wish I had tried. My keyworker and doc were happy for me to stay on 16mg for life really. They dont have the resource or time. I do feel like I'm just a box ticked. Another clean statistic. I will taper to a proper plan on my own.The other issue is there is very little support for people in full time employment. All the support like clubs and meetings are mid week. I can sort something I know. The services in the UK are poor, but they are free. Well there not, 40% of my wage goes on taxes to help fund.

I hear you all and thanks for not tearing strips of me, friendly and kind bunch and I look forward to partaking here. I'm not anti bupe, id say its the best there is for us at present. Whether doses like 16 and 32mg should be maintained over long periods I think not! I also do not trust the big drug companies or the system. Im a slave to bupe thats fact. But I will beat it!

Onwards and upwards peeps! Thanks again.

Keep smiling, be happy!


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:19 am 
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Interesting and make up your own mind.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3706486/



Just be careful peeps. If its bupe or another illegal opiate the choice is obvious.Bupe. I feel far from clean though,sorry. I know anxiety and depression Ive had it since I can remember. Comes and goes.The bupe helps in some ways and screws me in others.

For me I'm over Oxy and other opiates and will never go.back. Yes we hear that all the time! I mean it. I never crave, nor miss the drugs. The drugs combined with my state of mind nearly killed me on a number of occasions and I nearly lost everything.

For me its stage 2. Time to get off the bupe! I honestly feel its holding me back.It will take time I know but can be done I'm sure. I want to be truely clean, more than anything else.

Cheers


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:42 am 
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Hello Fresh,

Id suggested you drop to 4/6mgs . Now that you have tried 6mgs you feel better. This is good. It has been my experience and of many orhers i personally know, that the term "Less is More" is very ture . Mostly for thoses who have been on the med after a few months to a couple years.
High end doses ,thoses above 10/16mgs are needed in the begining. There is plenty of prove of this here .
Also, PAWs is the period After you have left bupe behind. Not during . That may come in the weeks,and months after you jump one day. This is were the relapes begin.

I wish you luck sir. The statement about "Never" going to use opiates again and you are feeling this now is BECAUSE your still on Suboxone/ Bupe.

Its good that you Hate bupe. Its fine that you feel unclean too. I have no problem with it. Thats up to you. We ve heard it before..we will here it again. It all depends on each persons experience. Im not one to put everyone in the same box. Ive lived thought that before, no thanks. You do what you need too.

However, this is the greatest tool in recovery. No medicine has helped more people and solved a worse condition than this medication. All meds have side effects that have to be lived with. Sorry.

Thoses article s posted are old and onesided. The one from Maryland ...I won't even read again.
Good luck my Brit friend. Keep tapering and you will feel better. Until you don't.
Post in the Stopping forum. Read much there,it will be helpful. They say to get off subs ya gota hate it. Well, your off to a good start Fresh.
I just hope you find the answers your looking for and find more recovery..


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:32 pm 
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It is an odd statement saying Buprenorphine is a relatively new drug. Hasn't it been around for over 30 years in the U.K. for pain relief? Somewhere, years ago I read that the Brits have been using it in micro-doses for many years with great success. That's the trick. Micrograms, not milligrams.

In order to get off it you need to taper down as low as possible. Please read our section Stopping Suboxone, or Bupe in the Rearview Mirror. Many members have got off it with very little discomfort while others seem to suffer. Sorry if you're one of the sufferers.

Either way, welcome to the forum and it is here for everyone's use. There is a wealth of information in our past posts that you just won't find anywhere else. Take some time and read them.

Good luck on your journey!

r

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:16 pm 
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Hey Fresh,

I read thru the articles. They got me fired up. The Maryland one is a rehab. its well know that rehabs believe in abstinence only. So their self dealing is obvious.

The bup emotion detector article is a bunch of hooey. crappy crap crap. Its a BAD article. I'm not a medical expert yet as part of my career life, I read medical research to see if I can reap investor profits and I can quickly and easily see the self dealing.

The first 4 authors are the developer/owners of the emotion detector. And the lead author developer E Hill, PhD candidate, also conceived and developed the experiments and contributed to the analysis. The conflict of interest is obvious.

This is a sales pitch for an emotion detector cloaked as a 'legit' medical research article. How did this study even get published? ! Sure, promote an invention that they and others can profit from, but not by claiming and making statements not supported by the data and not supported by good research design. And not by witholding how study participants were selected and screened.

In a real study, in the method section, authors would describe how and why the 36 sub study participants are chosen. There is nothing. There is NO definition of long term sub use. NONE. ZIP. They "did not ask participants any information other than gender and language". And yet they blatantly state these are long term sub users??? Head shaking. Imo, unethical and clearly misleading.
The other 2 comparative groups are bad as well. 33 in the AA and 44 in the general population group, nothing on them except gender and language.
And most importantly, "needed abstinent controls are absent". A valid study should have an accurate control group, otherwise all supposed conclusions are really assumptions and perhaps -- wrong..

Ohh and there's more... While they acknowledge that the sub group was not stable, were not in recovery and the sub group knew their urine test dates and once done, gave them a "free pass" to use their DOC until the next UA, the authors then falsely imply these are long term stable in recovery sub maintenance users. Sheesh.

They also acknowledge that "It is well known that individuals in addiction treatment ... manipulate and lie... on their emotional state" Yet somehow their study obtained the truth?

And what about their statement "Mood disorders ( inappropriate, exaggerated or limited range of feelings) and anxiety (stress, panic, agoraophobia, obsessive compulsive, phobias) are directly associated with substance abuse." So they admit that mental disorders are a significant co-factor w addiction - yet they have no idea if their study participants are affected by them! The authors (and us too) know its likely the participants have dual diagnoses, which can and will directly affect participants behavior. Any participants with mental disorders should have been screened out to claim its the sub only that causes an adverse affect.

Enough from me! I got tired of finding too many flaws w this 'study'.

Welcome aboard here! and Wishing you my best! Pelican

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:18 pm 
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AFreshStart1 wrote:
Interesting and make up your own mind.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3706486/



Just be careful peeps. If its bupe or another illegal opiate the choice is obvious.Bupe. I feel far from clean though,sorry. I know anxiety and depression Ive had it since I can remember. Comes and goes.The bupe helps in some ways and screws me in others.

For me I'm over Oxy and other opiates and will never go.back. Yes we hear that all the time! I mean it. I never crave, nor miss the drugs. The drugs combined with my state of mind nearly killed me on a number of occasions and I nearly lost everything.

For me its stage 2. Time to get off the bupe! I honestly feel its holding me back.It will take time I know but can be done I'm sure. I want to be truely clean, more than anything else.

Cheers


There are so many things to address in your posts that I hardly know where to start.

I edited two of the links out of your post because the Fix article was an opinion piece, and like Pelican said, the one from Maryland was information about their residential treatment. Most likely $30,000 a month with no insurance coverage. Do you think they might have a financial incentive to recommend in-patient treatment instead of an outpatient buprenorphine program? I do.

I left the third link because it is a scientific study, and it certainly doesn't indicate to me reason to stop buprenorphine treatment. Just to let you know, Mr. Fresh, I am currently in graduate school earning a masters in Addiction Studies. Lord knows that this doesn't make me a genius :) by any means, but my classes are quite challenging and I am used to reading through scientific research articles like the one above.

I have some reservations about the above article for at least a couple of reasons, (and please forgive me for not going into detail about every nitty-gritty aspect of the article as I am a migraine sufferer, and I'm on the 4th day in a row of a migraine cluster), although I'm not trying to attack its credentials. The first problem I have with the article is that it only includes 36 people on "long term" buprenorphine. That sample size is woefully inadequate to make a determination about the tens of thousands of opiate addicts on buprenorphine. My second complaint is that I couldn't find a definition in the study of what the authors consider "long term" buprenorphine users. I will stop there because my head is pounding and it feels like I have an ice pick in my right eye.

Just a couple more comments. You are still on buprenorphine. One of the actions of buprenorphine is to stop cravings for other kinds of opiates. How exactly can you tell that you won't have cravings when buprenorphine is no longer in your system, no longer protecting you from the permanent changes that have occurred in your brain? If you want to read about the brain changes that occur in addicts and particularly in opiate addicts, you should take a tour around the National Institute on Drug Abuse.

http://www.drugabuse.gov

Also, please remember that the reason we in The States are trying to make this drug more available is that there are so many people, and especially young people, who are dying here of overdose. Our drug programming for years and years has been based on abstinence-only treatment. Opiate addicts graduate from a 30 day program and then relapse at a rate of 90 to 95%, often dying because they don't realize that their tolerance has dropped so much. We're trying to save lives here. That's our first priority. It doesn't mean that we can't discuss other issues, but that is secondary to our main purpose here. Please try to respect that.

Amy

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:05 am 
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Hi Amy,

I had not really considered that extremly important point. Suboxone is easily avialable in the UK. Its also free. I have been spoilt really and am very lucky.

You guys dont have that luxury there and the rich/poor divide is massive. Some simply cannot afford.

We have a choice, Bupe or methadone. In comparison I feel Bupe is much safer and works much better. I have been on both. A lot of people still use whilst on Methadone. In fact they just get it free to enhance the high.Its in a shir state really. I hear the side efdects of methadone are worse.I also do not trust costly rehabs!

You cannot abuse on bupe!

It saved me! I cannot deny that. I can live a normal life in comparison. I bought up my son. Ive remarried.

Ok my concentration,memory and mood isnt the best and I get some side effects.Its a small price to pay. If some are not and its helped them. I promote it. Ive gone looking for all the negitives as I feel its now holding me back a tad and I dont feel.great. I am blaming subs. I should be blaming myself!!!!

I am sinceely sorry, i never even introduced myself. I came here and slammed bupe. I feel ashamed. The people hear seem genuine and kind.

Please delete my rants! I will rephrase at some point in bupe reduction and see if I can help and be helped in anyway.

I get what the forum is about now and understand how bupe will help many people and save many lives.

If bupe stops people re using and they have to be on it long term or all there lives then it is still safer and a normal life is possible.

I am lucky I only used opiates for about 5 years and was on off. My biggest issue was benzos. I was on those 10 years. I had a voilent father.shit upbringung (a lot here have too im sure) Ive Used drink and drugs all my life but for recreational weekend fun. Extacy, coke, booze, acid. Anything.

That changed in my mid 30's I used prescription drugs to live and get by. Day in day out. All started by hating flying as I had to do long haul for work. The doctor gave me benzos. I loved them. The made me feel normal. I was happy, confident and social for a while!!!!

Next thing I know Im on the net getting 1000 dropped through my door at a time. so called Mate then gave me oxy. Then it all really started.

I called my doc and said Id broken a rib playing squash, can I have oxycontin please. He prescribed me loads. Free! He had no idea what they were and I was blagging. 4 weeks worth at a high dose. Bonkers. Then they were easy to find.

I am the only one in my rehab group who is being treated for prescription drugs. We do not get vicidin, perecet, hydros here but our docs do give out oxy and benzos. All too easily.

In the UK the biggest opiate problem by far is herion, methadone is the biggest choice for recovery. Why? honestly? because it gets used in 70% of cases to back up a habit. False pee tests are easy. people work the system.

You just cannot do this on bupe, If you take bupe you are serious about stopping.

Bupe stops me feeling any high. booze, coke. They just dont work. Thats a good thing. I am convinced however it is stuck to my receptors and is stopping some of those nice endorphins now. Always a trade, pros and cons. In all it is worth it! yes.

My only advice and when ready, 8mgs is enough to stop most W/Ds. Do not take longer than you have too. It is very addictive!! Good luck and I hope you guys get acsess to bupe and win!!!!

I can honestly say I have never craved once whilst on bupe!

Also there is nothing else that worked for me as well as bupe. Trust me I researched and tried everthing. Kratom, herbal, legal highs,lots of other prescription drugs. They all made it worse, worse than bupe! I am also dealing with benzo addiction. Through the 2 years on bupe I have still messed about with most benzos, soma, barbs, etc. I'm not really in a position yet to say.

Take care all and thanks again I will be back with a more open minded and friendly approach.

2nd day on 6mg. I will keep you posted! I certianly feel a bit brighter! onwards and upwards and yes "less is more".

Speak soon Muckers!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:42 am 
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Hello Fresh,
Thank you for posting back. Glad that you have considered all the information here. No one can break it down like our Amy. She always make great points.

Wishing you great luck in your taper. It takes time,but most people do say they feel better on less after a good period on higher dose s.
I believe ,and this is what my experience has been,that going to 4mgs if You really want it ,can be done quickly. See how it goes at 6 for the next week or so. But remember to really slow it down when you get to 4mgs. Its not a race of course so take your time.

One more suggesttion, read Talkzone posts from Dr Junig. If you have a question also use the seachbox at the top ofcthe page.

Good luck to Fresh..we ll be here when needed..

Razor


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:03 am 
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Well, I don't know the last time I've woken up with such a smile on my face. :) Thank you so much for reading our posts with such an open mind! I so admire your ability to be very thoughtful and your willingness to be open to another point of view.

I hope you understand, too, that we are not discounting your experience. There are side effects to most medications. We have read about the experience that some have had with feeling a bit flat emotionally. Most of the regular posters here have not had that side effect. I sometimes wish I did! (Not really.) I lost my best friend from growing up last October and it still hurts so badly that I can never speak with him or see him ever again. We are 45. Far too early to be separated.

Yes, there is a large difference between England and the states in terms of opiate addiction and treatment. The stigma is huge here, dating back to when addiction was considered a moral failure. We have had to fight hard to get access to evidence based treatment and getting insurance to pay for it is also challenging.

I hope you stick around Fresh! You should start a thread in our Stopping Suboxoe section so you can keep us updated on your progess.

Again, thanks for making my morning!

Amy

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Done is better than perfect!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:41 pm 
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Thanks Amy, Razor and all!

Thanks for the advice and help. Really appreciated. I will see you guys soon on the reduction topic :)


Take care, stay safe and keep smiling
D


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:38 pm 
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Hey Fresh,

Really great posts. Thank you.

Something that came to mind given your past and current benzo use, is its possible your side effects might be from benzos: "Forgetting lots of things, unable to.focus, snappy and afraid." "Memory loss, anxiety, bad eyesight, irrational and a very foggy head."

I won't post links but if you search 'long term effects of benzo use' you'll find a fair amount of info like:
"Effects of long-term benzodiazepine use may include disinhibition, impaired concentration/memory, and depression."
"A review of the evidence has found that long-term use of benzodiazapines impairs memory."

Memory impairment, blurred vision and irritability are listed as side effects on the diazepam drug manufacturer's patient information drug monograph.

Really like your handle.
Since you're aware of our recent ground hog day, any interest in today's Super Bowl? Go Patriots!
Again, welcome aboard and wishing you my best from across the pond. P

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Did well on Suboxone. Stopped May 2011.
Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
Coming here 'keeps recovery green'.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:55 am 
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Hiya P.

Fair point and it could well be the benzos. They certainly wouldnt of helped and mixing benzos, somas, oxys with half a bottle of whiskey would certainly have taken its toll on my grey matter. Plus all the other crap and expermentation. Even the extacy.

When i started bupe it worked amazing. I thought it was non addictive. Answer to all my problems. I never relapsed. Hardly even missed the oxys. Wow!I wanted to be on 16mg. More if I could. I even got a little buzz. For a week.

I was so much better than I was. Life improved. As my life and brain started to settle and the rollercoaster of using drugs became flat. Monday to sunday. Rather than Monday to Thursday ticking over with weekends being one huge binge.

I used to be fun, a bit mad at times but in a likeable rouge way, very humble and honest. Also very emotionally reactive to others and myself. Very aware. Too sensitive.

I do actually believe that softer, more empathic and loving people have a greater chance of being addicts and use drugs to block out those deep emotions. If your a very confident hard nosed, up your own ass type who only cares about no1. Less likely.

After 2 years on bupe Im trying to start a new life. Im relocating with my wife and have a new job. I just feel emotionally numb. No sex drive, no enjoyment from the things I once loved. Sports, outdoor activities, adredaline junkie. A risk taker, to a cuddle with my wife, father and son activties. Simple, natural things. I eat well, am fit, my life is OK. But I feel dull, emotionally flat 24/7.

I know my own body and my head but am no doctor. I hate to say it and Ive looked into it heavily. I honestly believe bupe blocks most natural dopamine and other natural goodies going to the brain. I'm sure this is scientfic fact. "Dopamine, endorphins etc do bounce off bupe" It makes sense to me too, thats why it works so damn well.

Why booze and stimulants dont work anymore. Bupe is not helping my brain to fully recover. It is just a tempory plaster. Why I was so so ill when I took naltrexone. It stripped off all that bupe that had built up over 2 years and boy did it hurt!!! I would not wish that on anyone.Ive broken many bones, felt much pain. That was something else all together! That in itself tells me something. I took naltrexone years ago before I was an addict.

They say it helps alcoholics and I used to binge drink at weekends. So I took one before going out one Friday. It worked very well. I didnt feel like drinking. 2 pints no buzz, Whereas before it would have been 8 strong pints, 1/2 liter of the top shelf and a gram of coke.

If it isnt the bupe doing or aiding this Im in trouble and it means I have damaged my brain. Yes I suffered depression, anxiety but not all the time. I know it may take time. I just feel for my head to get back to itself and me to be me again, I need off Bupe. I was immature, foolish and learnt everything the hard way. I will use those experiences to grow my character and be whole again. Its there I feel it once in a while.

A drug that is this good for addiction, is so powerful. It will have a price tag. A small one to pay maybe if its a matter of life/death, losing your family, friends. Your whole world falling apart around you.

Its about that next step for me.

Taking a lower dose has really helped so far and I will give it my all.

I posted about the long term effects bupe was having on me and I stand by them Im afraid. I was also worried about others thinking bupe is a miricle cure long term. If it is great! I thought it was too.

It served its purpose on the road to recovery for me. Im now ready to come off it slowly but surely and once I am and have addressed the issues that caused my unhappiness in the first place I will be me once again.

All Im saying is be aware, be careful, be sensible with bupe. If you notice issues like I have after long term use look at reducing carefully. Know the facts! Be informed. Its a fair balance and argument I'm putting forward now (it wasnt on my first post I know, and I'm sorry for that).

If I had been told bupe was highly addictive, its a bitch to get off and can make some people emotionally numb I would of acted differently. 8mg would of been fine. I went for 16mg because of the information I was provided. I would of gone on 32! At that point I wanted as much as possible. The same as the oxy. Same addict mentality.

Now I know nothing like this comes without a price tag. i need to be honest with myself. I Thought it to good to be true.I was niave.

It is a synthethic opiate with a ceiling effect. Fair?

As I say I am in touch with my own body and mind and no one knows it like I do. Same for you all. I really hope you dont get this effect from bupe that I and many others have.

Bupe saved me! Ive moved on from seeking or needing the highs. Now I want natural highs and just to be happy. Bupe has served its purpose and served it well. For me It is a bridge, a stepping stone.

No superbowl im afraid P :( We have the 6 nations rugby going on!

Enjoy your week mates! x


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

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  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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