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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:32 am 
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Hello one and all. I realize that I have an addiction. A bad one. That being said, I know that I need to do something about that addiction, because if I don't, I won't survive or I will end up in jail or any other consequences you might think of. I want my life to be normal again. I want to feel normal again.

My DOC is oxycodone. My favorite version of OC is the IR, which can be crushed and snorted...which is what I typically did. Line after line, and popping them like pac man. It became my favorite feeling in the world, but quickly I learned that the feeling wasn't going to last forever. I started having to buy more...and more...just to maintain myself. It became a really expensive habit.

So, I got a Subuxone strip from my uncle. Just one 8mg buperenorphine / 2mg naloxone. My uncle is a recovered addict of like 20 years, and pretty much has to take subuxone daily because he cannot control his addiction. And rather than throw away 20 years of my own life...already losing my fiance of five years and the first whole year of my two year old sons life...( We seperated....I had to get an apartment by myself and have pretty much spent that last few months barely seeing my kid and choosing drugs and sex over him...I am ashamed to call myself a dad, knowing I betrayed my son, asking where his dad is...typing this through tears spilling on the keyboard).

I won't keep on with the sob story (I am really sad and having crying spells, likely due to beginning signs of w/d, no more endorphins flooding through my brain constantly making me "feel good" and "forget the physical and emotional pain") but pretty much my uncle said I can have as many sub strips as I need to get off. I have one of two choices. I can get a few strips from him and taper down, or I can see a sub doctor and start a maintenance regiment. I would really rather get off all the way so I can go back to the life I had. Maybe go to the gym, get back in shape...I lost all that weight because all I did was oxy...for breakfast lunch and dinner. I went from a happy (a bit hefty) 220lbs to 160llbs the last time I checked. Everytime I would be really high seemingly enjoying myself...I would see my little boy out of the corner of my eye walking, or hear him say "da-da?"..or roll over in the bed and put my arm over a woman who isn't there anymore. A woman who I loved very much, but threw it all away. I have these...memories that haunt me. They visit me at night the most. I am alone and afraid. I am scared.

Other than all the sadness and depression and burden of all my sins that I suddenly feel...I was really wondering how much suboxone to start with and when I should start. This question has been asked a hundred million times, I realize that...but take into account, even on my worst day, my oxy use was UP TO 100+- mg, which is not WAY too much, but its more than most.

I ran out last night, around 6ish PM, took my last dose of roughly 30mg oxycodone. I have run out of money, and no one has any OC in my area. So all I have is that sub in my drawer that I have been saving for a couple months.

So if I ran out at 6pm last night based on my habit, how long should I wait? I already feel chillbumps, have crying spells, nose is runny a bit, mood swings, and general aches, lack of energy. I have gone two days without and felt far worse, so I sort of have an idea of what the w/d feels like and my God...I do not want to endure it. I am at work and figured I could possibly make it one day through work...but the second day? 36 hours in? I just don't think there is a way in hell that I could make myself get up through all that pain. Today obviously is monday around 9:30 am central time, which means its been roughly 14-15 hours since my last dose. I didn't bring subs to work....for fear of taking them to soon.

And then there is the big question....how much of the sub should I take. I have seen recommendations in similar cases to be 0.5mg which would be like....1/16th of the strip? Which is totally fine, I read bupe is really powerful. So is that okay to start with? I don't want to start with anything higher than I need. Any advice is appreciated. I am absolutely frightened to start this "new drug". Also I should mention I take 3 x .5 klonopin a day for anxiety, which I am not going to take so that I can try and correctly guess my symptoms on the COWS.

Sorry to be a bother, but I am scared. Lonely...lost...just a shell of who I used to be. Anyone's advice would be appreciated very much....


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:52 am 
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Hey Feelin,
Your new life will begin soon. Pasted hurts and deeds can be fixed. Your dark clouds can go away. .mine did. ..
Welcome to the best forum on opiate addiction on the net. I Highly suggest you take a look at Dr Junigs Talkzone blog here too. Everything bupe is discussed there too. The facts....

Its best imo to have a dr Feelin. Someone to be accountable to If you can afford it or have ins. Just taking sub without help most likely just turns it into another street drug and the treatment is lost.

Please, don t be scared. And for a time your uncle can help you. But try looking for a dr too..


We have all been in your shoes somehow. Its painful, it is scary as hell. But once on a stable dose of suboxone you will feel normal and pretty dam good. You can rebuild everything. Its possible then. Not now when useing.

It doesn't matter really what we were useing, how much, addiction is addiction. 100 mgs 200 mgs, whatever, it kills all the same.. It does matter when inducting though..
Yes, be in moderate to severe wd, start at 2mgs, wait 30 mins to an hour an see how your simptoms are. If wd isnt gone, try another mg or two. Once wd s are gone, then we see how much will be needed for the Cravings! Most important. This is where Buprenorphine works the best and keeps us from wanting to ge high Feeling..you can do this.

You used the word Betrayal, the worst of the worst imo.. We ve all done plenty of that. It takes time but you can fix some of that too..Once on your feet Feeling, you can work on these things..

Remember, you want to have a feeling of normally on sub, and dont get to caught up on mgs later. Or "when to get off this stuff". If its working for you ride it as llug as needed. Just like uncle.

The World wants us Drug free..well good for them! Theirs nothing wroug with being on maintenance. Its so so very easy to slip back into addiction once off sub treatment. Ive seen it .i see it here at home with many. Some die..
Anyway,..

Your post really reminded me of, well me four years ago. Ive rebuilt, so have many others here. Your at the first step Feeling. We are all here to help and support you man.

Ok so you took a 30 15 hours ago?!. Im not a doc, but with your tolerance low and all these hours going by, id check your score on cows when you get home from work and take it from there. You may be able to dose this evening .

Your very close imo Feeling..hang on..

Check back to us please as soon as you can.

And.....You are NOT A BOTHER..BROTHER!!!

ITs going to be alright Feeling. .it is, and uno, its ok to be afraid of something new..it is..


Ok, so we will see ya later..hmm?

razor


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:07 pm 
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Thank you....for your really positive reply. It's great to hear that there is a way out and it gives me hope, which is all that I need right now.... Right now, I am not feeling so well. The only reason I haven't gone to a sub doc today is because I can't afford it right this minute.

And while I took 30mg at 6pm yesterday, that was just my last dose. My entire dose throughout the entire day, was something toward 90mg (just sniffing rails throughout the day). So my daily dose...is spread out....and usually never all at once. Just got high when I started to feel sick again.

The biggest thing that scares me is the dosage of the subs. I have read about people taking even 2mg like you were saying and pretty much projectile vomitting, getting dizzy, feeling sick for hours and those were properly inducted people who just had side effects like that. Just don't want to be throwing up for like 24 hours your know? I really need to be able to go to work. Should I start with a very tiny amount....say 0.5mg then re-dose every couple hours to see where I am ? I know redosing oxycodone ALWAYS brought me back to normal, but will suboxone do this for me?

Since suboxone is synthesized from thebaine just like oxycodone, will the effects be similar? (i.e. - speedy, energetic, but relaxed at the same time?)

If I get too jittery after my first dose can I take a klonpin 0.5mg to calm down? I am easily prone to anxiety/ panic....


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:43 pm 
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Use your COWS scale. The louer you wait an the more uncomfortable you are the better. Ya, sounds great huh?. But it is the surest way to avoid PW s.
Also,some people are given to much sub at induction , i think this what may have happened to thoses people your read about, cant be sure, but that kind of sickness is sub overdose. Tolerance to low for dose given.

Since you were taking a short acting opiate ,and your last dose was at 6 pm yday, with a fairly low tolerance at this point, continue to score on cows and hopefully you may begin tonight.

For me, i was at a low dose of viks at the end. I dosed at 4mgs that night, and i was fine the next morning. Like a kid at xmas really.
Not saying 4 mgs is for you tonight, but the effects of the sub were better than imagined.

I dont know much about benzos. Id stay away from them if possible till you have inducted. Just feel what your going to feel as is. Uno..then maybe reintroduce them later..just an opinion. .

So ya, take it slowly in the begining Feeling. A mg or two at a time till your stable.The effects may seem similar, without the big high feeling..uno, its kinda hard to explain just how it feels..A well feeling i think..with energy. .sure..

You may get a bit sweaty, but take it slowly at first. .and please go check out dr junigs TALKZONE, read over there too. Really good stuff...

Razor


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:21 pm 
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Hey Blues :)

My drug of choice was also oxycodone and I took as many 30's that I could get my hands on. At the very least took three a day but sometimes up to ten or so....crazy high tolerance. When I inducted on sub, I waited 32 hrs I think. I was highly sick. Now I'm sure u could go quicker than that, just do as razor said. Rate urself on the COWS scale. Google it if u don't know what this is. Once ur at the right level of withdrawal, take two mg. Wait thirty min and if ur still feeling sick, take another mg or two. The best thing to do is get a doctor as soon as you can. I used for six yrs before I started sub, and I haven't looked bk since and that's been three years ago. I did go to jail, issues with my children, lost my home.....on and on. Now my life is a blessing, I highly recommend u give this a chance. U sure will be glad u did it. Good luck man, keep us updated.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:33 pm 
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jennjenn,

by highly sick you mean you were sick from plain withdrawal or sick from the subs causing precipitated w/d when you inducted? sorry, precipitated w/ds honestly scare the shit out of me.

by 7pm...that will be 24 hours...i am hurting bad. i think i will take it at 7, see how i get by with a small dose. but every hour that goes by..shit just gets worse and worse. im so COLD then im so hot i cant stand it. i hate this....HATE IT.

i am getting really anxious and irritable...trying not to rip my own head off. its just getting worse and worse.....i just want to die....i just want to go to sleep and not wake up.

I really hope the subs dont give me precip w/ds the first time i induct, because that will most likely scare me away....and i dont want it to. i want to be a success story....i want to feel normal. take a 4-5 subs and then quit forever.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:06 pm 
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Hey Feelin',

Score yourself *honestly* on the COWS worksheet so that you don't have any PWs. Similar to Jenjen, I had to wait 48 hours after my last dose before taking my first dose of Suboxone (actually 50 hours by the time all the paperwork was finished). In about 30 minutes it was an amazing relief. Based on the somewhat lower amount of Oxy you were taking, I would *think* you wouldn't need any more than 4mg max.

I too would recommend seeing a doctor as soon as you can. Also, you do need to be committed to recovery. I know you said you were out and there wasn't any Oxy available in the area. You need to get on the Suboxone so that you can squelch the cravings before the area's stock is refilled. One good thing about Suboxone is that if you were to take Oxy after you're on Suboxone, it won't have the same old effect...you won't get the high you are accustomed to.

Personally, I don't think 4-5 days is practical (if you were going to do that, then you'd be better off just going cold turkey from the Oxy). Once you determine the optimum dose, you need to use the stability Suboxone brings to you physically, mentally, and emotionally to work on issues in your life. I would suggest that you probably need to be on Suboxone for an extended period of time while you work to bring your life back into balance. Only after that would I consider tapering off Suboxone.

You are in a great place for support and encouragement. Please keep us posted.

Thanks,
Morphing


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:24 pm 
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Blues,

I meant by 32 hrs I was sick with withdrawal. I didn't go through any pw's at all. So ur almost at 24hrs....I would think that u will be ok to go ahead and dose, but I'm no Dr and I'd really hate to tell u something and u end up sick from pw. But in my opinion only, I'd think u will be ok, especially if ur already feeling horrible.

The anxiety and depression ur feeling right now is completely normal for what ur going through. Just remember, start with 2 mg and wait 30 min and see how u feel. Like morphing said, I'd also think that 4 mg should be enough of a dose for u. Hope that helps u some and good luck.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:44 am 
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Feeling

How are you today? IMO you need a recovery plan, sub is just one tool to help you change behavior etc. If you only want to use 4-5 strips that won't be very long to have you get your recovery plan in place. The best thing about sub is it takes those cravings away. I would literally tear my house or car apart looking for a pill or piece of a pill and with sub i had no desire to do that.

Hoping to hear good news from you today...


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:47 am 
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Hello all, and GOOD MORNING!

So I get in my car...struggling to drive home last night from work, my body is in that much pain....
I lie down as soon as I get home, fully clothed, but you know the chills are screwing with me hardcore at this point. I keep taking the blanket on and off etc. 5:30 rolls around, and I simply can't take it anymore. I prayed, scared and anxious...took a leap of faith and stuck roughly 0.5/0.6mg under my tongue. My current girlfriend was very supportive...she kept asking if I was okay or needed anything, so far so good...

Not long after I put the piece under my tongue it dissolved, surprisingly quickly. For some WEIRD reason, I had this fatigue feeling (normally I am WIRED and cannot for the life of me sleep in w/d) and shortly after taking the subs...I fell into a mini coma. Some notable weird side effects was that my heart skipped a couple beats, but I just chalked this up to being normal?? When I awoke around 7:20PM, oddly my shirt was covered in sweat. But as soon as I sat up...there it was. My back no longer hurt. My joints, sides, and bones didn't hurt. I could walk freely and comfortably. To be honest, as it came on...the more time that went by...I had this MASSIVE upsurge in energy, like energy to SPARE...it was astounding. I wasn't "high" like some people say you get the first time or two, but I felt all the benefits of opiates without being "high" if that makes any sense. You know how you snort a good 30mg of oxycodone or two in one sitting and suddenly....that intense rush comes over you and you feel almost superhuman (apply that to your DOC obviously if your not an OC user). That's pretty much how just that tiny piece of the sub worked for me.

I became very talkative. I even felt good enough to drive and listen to music! I drove (speeding in my car, it's turbo charged hehehe) and appreciated the power, shifting through the gears like a fine "tuned super-sonic speed machine". The whole drive, I talked to my girlfriend, and I mean a lot, I was really witty and had a lot of things to say! It was almost too much. But I made her laugh and smile a lot and remember every second, whereas when I was high I didn't or don't remember much of shit. I attribute that mostly to the klonopin...lol...which I plan to taper down on (I have the wafers that taste like strawberry...mmmm....) and manage my anxiety normally. I met my girlfriend on oxycodone. We went on dates on while I was high on oxycodone. Did everything together...high...on oxycodone. It was like I couldn't enjoy activities unless....I was on oxycodone. And When I didn't have oxy, I took massive...massive amounts of hydrocodone...which were cheaper but went by quick because they weren't as strong.

Anyways, CLEARLY I am on suboxone right now. I am cool, calm, and super collected. Doing my work with ease and obviously typing this out with ease. Sorry I didn't post sooner, I was too busy enjoying myself. I ended up having to take a klonopin to sleep though, subs gave me way too much energy for nighttime. Took my dose this morning with 100% courage, no doubts. 0.5mg again today, might try 0.5mg again this afternoon. Thinking I may slowly taper up to 2mg a day, then once I am steady on that, go see a doc. My uncle says there is a doctor in my area who specializes in sub taper, claims he can get you off with minor to no withdrawals from suboxone in one years time. I just might take him up on that offer.

All I can say is....THANK GOD. Thank you...for everyone who reached out to me. I don't know the future...and I can't tell you the few times I went to my local inpatient facility, stayed for ONE DAY every time...and was like FUCK THIS IM GONE, and within minutes of getting out I would be driving down the highway after a rail of OC listening to Warren Zevon's "My shit's fucked up" or some other intense pink floyd or zepplin song.

Thank you all. You are all so kind to a person you didn't even know. Brings tears of joy to my eyes, to know that there could be people like you out there.

I am 23 years old. I want to have a future. I want to have a life. I don't want to be the next statistical junkie who died on OC. I am young, good looking, and I have a lot more going for me than I realized. I have an AWESOME job, the greatest kid ever, and a really loving beautiful girlfriend. Why throw all that away? What for? It's like.....I HAVE BEEN AWAKENED. I now see what I couldn't before. I admit humility and defeat and I give up. I am tired of chasing that up and down feeling. Besides....do you have any idea how much money this will save me???????? Lol


THANK EVERYONE OF YOU!!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:08 pm 
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.. AHAHAHAHH..I LOVE IT WHEN THIS HAPPENS!!!!!LOLOL.WONDERFUL!!!FEELING!!!

So so glad for you man..I was blown way by your post an.

This is what happe ed to me wnen i inducted..same kinda deal.
Took my fjrst dose, when to sleep, woke up, and as soon as i ope ed my eyes I knew my life had just changed!!
Same feelings..Everything was better.. est day at work in 5 years that day, and it continues today...
Talk talk, ..the feeling that i could do anything without being High..Congrats Feeling..

Ya, find that dr asap get on maintenance dose a d take it from there ..

Life can be great again..

Onward an Upward...Welcome! !
Reading your post made my day so far....


Razor


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:10 pm 
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I understand you feeling almost giddy at the effects of suboxone. I would venture to say that mostly what you're feeling is what if feels like to be a non-addict. The obsession to get more oxy is gone, right? You have all this other room in your life for living, for other people, for your work!

I would recommend finding a daily dose that holds you for 24 hours and then take it in the morning, once a day. This keeps you from the addict behavior of constantly seeing how you feel and responding to tough situations by taking more bupe. Many new bupe patients try to test out what taking more feels like. Try to avoid this, because it will just lead you into running out of medication sooner and you won't feel a high from taking more. Your friends that were vomiting, etc. when starting bupe were probably on too high a dose. Those aren't typical side effects of bupe.

Listen carefully to this next part. There have been studies of opiate addicts who taper off bupe before a year has gone by and over 90% of them relapse! Take your time on bupe! Use this time to fix your relationships, your finances, etc. Go to therapy! Figure out some of the reasons you were vulnerable to addiction. Work on figuring out your triggers to use. Really work on being in recovery. 12 step groups help some people and not others, but there are other groups out there! Try a SMART Recovery group. Above all, don't forget that bupe allows us the illusion that we are healed, we are better. But it's only an illusion! Bupe is a tool. Use the stability that it provides to work on your addiction. If you try to taper too soon and without working on recovery, you will relapse. I can just about guarantee that.

Congratulations on using this tool! Reap the benefits by taking your time with it and working on recovery!

Amy

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:37 pm 
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Congrats Blues!!

Glad to hear everything went well. I knew it would. Keep in mind though, u need to find u a sub doctor and start a recovery plan. Also, there are lot's of doctors that won't give u sub mixed with ur klonapin. Benzo and sub is tricky. The Dr u go to could be ok with it but my Dr absolutely will not allow it under any circumstances. U need to get urself on a dose and stick with it. Like Amy said, short term sub use doesn't have great outcomes. U should definitely think about staying on sub long enough to get urself together mentally. If u just use sub to get through the physical part, what will u do when ur hit with the horrible cravings?? Will u be able to battle that so early in ur recovery? So many of us could get clean, the mental part is what will get u every time I promise u that. So it's definitely time to get ya a sub Dr if this is the way ur planning to go. U will not regret that decision. Again, congratulations and keep us posted :)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:48 pm 
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Quote:
.. AHAHAHAHH..I LOVE IT WHEN THIS HAPPENS!!!!!LOLOL.WONDERFUL!!!FEELING!!!


Yep. I can't seem to get the smile off my face. I don't know if bupe is causing the sudden upregulation of my endorphins (this is most likely the case). Today at work, I felt like it was my first day at work. All the things I like about my job seemingly returned. Weird. I wonder if this feeling will last or if it's just some initial effect?

Quote:
I understand you feeling almost giddy at the effects of suboxone. I would venture to say that mostly what you're feeling is what if feels like to be a non-addict. The obsession to get more oxy is gone, right?


The feeling is literal. And since I dosed the sub, I am not fiending or "craving" anything. The thought of my addictive behaviour like "man, it sure would be nice to score some 30's right now and rail the FUCK OUT OF THEM" will be there in the back of my mind forever. I just need to learn how to let go of that. Psycological addiction never leaves contrary to popular belief that someone with the right counseling and steps can be "healed". Any well advised and experienced medical psychiatrist or very experienced addictionologist/psychologist on the subject should and will tell you very point blank: The addiction is something you will live with for the REST of your life. The minute I started abusing opiates, is the minute I gave up control. It's like I said to myself: "I am okay with this new struggle and accept it into my life as normal." That being said...let's be definitive about what's "normal". It is also a well known fact that the brain can be "rewired". I "rewired" my brain to accept the abuse of opiates as a normal, acceptable daily routine. Given that my brain was rewired in that fashion, I created an addiction, and what an addiction REALLY IS ...is a hypotensive reward system. Essentially, I abused the brains reward mechanisms through behaviour and substance abuse, so the brain responded promptly in return by saying "Well. Since you've got me feeling this good all the time, and obviously plan to continue this behaviour, I am going to generate more opiod receptors" and this is literally what the brain does. And as time marches on, your nervous system sprouts up more of these receptors over time, giving way to tolerance. Many people who abuse opiods of any sort, tend to always rely on maintenance medication simply because, they have more opiod receptors than their brains can NATURALLY produce endorphins. So maintenance on say, suboxone is required, to modulate and saturate all those extra receptors, bringing in what you could call a "new normal".

I will say this. When you abuse drugs for any prolonged period, you WILL NEVER return to normal. You have modified the brains behaviour and while you can go into recovery, you will never be what you could have been had you continued to move through life naturally. Being a human being is awesome, because we have all these reward systems in the brain and the ability to feel a wide spectrum of emotions and have many neural defense mechanisms and so on. But that's a double-edged sword. Since we have these systems, we can abuse these systems for pleasure.

I am no medical expert, I am just a highly intelligent drug user. I was a high functioning addict. Many times, I would discuss this very topic in an inpatient facility with a psych doctor and every single response I got back was: "You are trying to intellectualize your drug abuse, and thereby the very fact that you believe you understand how your addiction works physically, and you are correct, it still won't save you from relapse."

And they are right. There is NOTHING that can stop me from relapse. Except me of course =) The whole goal is to get off everything if I can. I called a doctor today and left a voice message in the hopes that I can start an appointment in the near future. He is only ~200 a month cash. Which is a STEAL compared to what I was paying. I checked with my insurance and for 60 sub films would only cost me 10$ for the entire script. So 210$ a month vs 1600+ a month? Lol. It's just a matter of economics at this point...


I had another question though. I have been having slight headaches. I suspect this is the naloxone. Would anyone recommend subutex vs the regular films/tablets? I could care less, and realize that bupe has a much higher affinity for the receptors and out-competes the naloxone for the seat in the opiate receptors and really doesn't even make a REAL difference if taken properly, but at the same time....naloxone is STILL in my system and therefore still active at some level.

I know insurance won't pay for it, so it will be around 6-7 bucks per subutex which will still be cheaper and safer than the alternative. Thoughts on this?

And apparently..this supposed doctor doesnt care about benzos. Which is great, so I can ask my regular other psych doc to wean me down. Kind of tired of benzos anyway.

:mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:28 am 
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I'm so glad to hear your story and I know exactly how you're feeling right now. I'm also glad to hear that you're getting with a doctor for on-going Sub treatment. One thing some people on here do to avoid the headaches is to spit out their saliva after the medication has been absorbed. That keeps the naloxone (spelling?) from going to your stomach and being absorbed. That seems to help a lot of people who are sensitive to it. My headaches went away after 2-3 weeks of starting Suboxone (I didn't read about spitting until after I had adjusted).

I think some of the great feeling (non-high euphoria) is our psychological reaction to the benefits of Suboxone, and as a result a little bit of it fades after several weeks as we get into day-to-day living and repairing our damaged lives. It sounds cliche' but you really do just feel "normal".


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Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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