abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stable

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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by BlueLight » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:42 am

owlcrow wrote:There is no way I can afford or would consider going to inpatient treatment. Been there done that. I had gone to a place called Narconon a few years back and it did not help. Just like all other places I had been to. They have you go to meetings hear old war stories and I have never had any productive results from that atmosphere.
Hence suboxone, which has worked in the past and will work again.
I totally disagree with you saying treatment is the only way. The treatment centers don't work for everyone.
I would rather get back to a place where I take more pride in my life get back to some good clean fun and leave the drugs behind. Not all people get the same results from treatment. I had poor results and find that by setting goals reaching them and reaping those benefits work best for me.
Ok since I got that covered. (no treatment center for me). I had another decent day. I woke feeling tired although I worked hard yesterday at work and after work. I got by on 2 mgs. and did not use anything else! I think I will stay at 2 mgs for a week or so and then see how it's going before moving ahead.

Will continue to post as the future unwinds.

Can't wait till the long weekend I'm going drag racing with a few buddy's, I made plans that I know won't involve any drugs I am already working on lifestyle changes. And feel much better about things than just a couple of days ago. I am coming around
No worries. At a minimum you need to get into a recognized Suboxone program, get on 8 mg or 16 mg and stay on them for 12 to 18 months minimum before even thinking of tapering given your 10+ years abusing full agonist opiates. That’s not my opinion, that’s what all the medical and scientific research has shown to be effective. In addition, psychotherapy is required. Again, this is the MINIMUM it takes to have a shot at long term clean time from opiates. Otherwise, you’re facing a 90% - 95% relapse rate.

You went to Narconon? I don’t consider a Scientology “rehab” facility a top notch inpatient program. In fact, it’s nothing more than an insurance scam meant to appeal to 12 step haters. Is this the rehab you made it 4 days before checking out? L Ron Hubbard’s “detox sauna” didn’t work? I’m shocked! LOL! https://www.thefix.com/content/narconon ... n?page=all . It’s good you got out of there in 4 days before they shipped you off to their planet Xenu. I wonder if they have heroin on planet Xenu.....hmmmm?

Suboxone is a great tool to help you in your recovery. My insurance company has joined a few others that now strongly insists that inpatient treatment needs to be followed up by a several month long IOP program that utilizes MAT of Vivitrol, Suboxone/Sublocade, or methadone otherwise they won’t pay for IOP. Simply attending a inpatient program without Suboxone and psychotherapy and IOP has an equally dismal relapse rate (91% relapse according to this study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20669601 ).

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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by SisterMorphine » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:28 pm

i realize treatment centers aren't for everyone, but i can't stress enough how important having a therapist or counselor is in addition to MAT.
i will be off for 2 years in oct, but i'm still seeing my therapist. at first she helped me figure out why i used, why i relapsed after 5 years and how to avoid that. now she's helping me get back into some of the hobbies and activities i gave up while in active addiction.

so what i'm rambling about is there are many benefits to therapy. i've never been to any kind of group session or a treatment facility. it seems it would be hard to make headway on healing yourself in a room of strangers. i could imagine other personality types really liking it though.
Get your shit together and live your life." Black Snake Moan

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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by owlcrow » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:54 pm

Been doing pretty good until today I woke up ill as hell and subs would not bring me out of it. Dam it I used again and have to get this right. I need to be able to be on subs alone and have been having a hard time doing this. I am going to wait till I feel sick again and try again and that is that. I know some of you think I need treatment and I can't do that I do not have the resources and have to get to work take care of my dog etc. And every time I've been to treatment it never works anyhow the best I have done is on my own which I am trying again
I feel I will be criticized for breaking down again but I am being honest about my situation so be it what may. I may have to wean down on heroin and wait till I begin to get sick and then try induction over. Perhaps if I let the subs clear from my system for a couple of days and then try it would work better. I am at a place I don't want to be and I am not sure what is going to happen I just know I want out so badly. I guess I have no choice other than to try try again. Sooner or later I will win the battle thanks for the reply's sorry I don't have any great news but hopefully tomorrow will be a better day I can only keep plugging away and striving for sobriety. Even if it means I am on maintenance for a good long time. Once I make it to that point I would not have a problem staying on subs for an extended period. I just need to get there. I will keep trying and sooner or later I should be able to make it.

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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by SisterMorphine » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:34 pm

hey, you can do this. treat your ill symptoms. take advil and imodium, melatonin to sleep, take a hot bath, walk your dog, keep yourself occupied. when you try again could you take a dose right before bed? or wake up early take one and go back to bed?
Get your shit together and live your life." Black Snake Moan

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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by razor55 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:58 pm

I understand not wanting to go to a treatmentcenter, but reread Bluelights post. The begining is all ture bud. The problem lies in the dosages of Suboxone you are playing with. 2mgs aint cuttin it.. Get to a doc, Get on a real and stable dose, at least in the 6 to 10 mg area. The cravings for your DOC can be gone with a higher dose and hopefully some kind of other help from a pro, hell even a meeting here or there. There free at least. This up and down could turn out to be a down of no return. Ive seen it myself with others many time s the past 8 years. I feel badly that you are struggling but give yourself a real chance, your plan isnt working, trust someone elses maybe. We are pulling for you !!! rr

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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by Amy-Work In Progress » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:57 pm

OC, we are not here to criticize, but to help.

We try to use our own experiences plus scientific evidence to offer suggestions and guidance.

So many members have tried to reach you with good information and you haven't let any of it in! You say, I've had bad treatment experiences and I don't have the money for it. We give you alternatives to residential treatment that are also effective, and it's like you don't even hear us.

2mg is obviously too low for you, like Razor said. You continue to try the very same process of doing it all by yourself and taking too low of a dose. What do you expect is going to happen?

A therapeutic dose of buprenorphine is the amount at which your withdrawal symptoms and psychological cravings are gone! If you are still feeling ill and craving heroin, you are not taking enough suboxone. Period!!

Listen to us owlcrow! We care about our fellow addicts and we want you to have a great life!

1. Find a doctor who will prescribe you buprenorphine.

2. If you can't wait to see a doctor, wait until you are having moderate withdrawal symptoms. Then take 4mg of suboxone. Wait a half hour. Do you feel much better physically and mentally? Then stop there.

3. If you're still feeling yucky take an additional 2mg and wait a half hour. Repeat until you get to the dose that makes you feel significantly better. That's your therapeutic dose!

4. Spend some time on Google and find resources in your area. There are places that will provide psychotherapy for free or with a sliding fee scale. You need this, whether it feels like you do or not!

5.Come back and report to us how well you are doing!

Amy
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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by owlcrow » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:30 pm

I'd like to thank everyone for suggestions and support. I am struggling I will try to increase my dose tomorrow today , well let's just say I did not do well "again". I am done playing around I know better I am going to have to miss work again and that's taking a chance on my job but my life is more important at this point.
I will report a play by play tomorrow about what I do. For today I have used as well as taken 6 mils of suboxone throughout the day. I am not reacting well with the mix and am going to wait 24 hours before taking anymore subs unless I get really sick I am not ill just temperature problems and not real comfortable. Oh well I got here now I have to fight to get out. I believe I have come to the realization that I have to take the bull by the horns at this point or things are not going to get any better.

Will post tomorrow morning

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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by owlcrow » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:05 pm

Have taken 6 mg today and am feeling a bit better I will hang in there and either take 4 or 6 tomorrow or if needed later add 2 mg today I have nothing around to screw up with and won't get anything I am trying this with good intentions and hope to pull through in the next couple days it should only get better from this point I hope

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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by Amy-Work In Progress » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:41 pm

Good job! I hope this induction works well for you! I'm glad you are bravely trying a new way of induction! Let us know how it goes.

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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by jennjenn » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:21 am

I’ve been saying since my very first response that your dose isn’t high enough. I don’t think 6mg is high enough either.... maybe it is but I personally don’t think so. You need a higher dose to completely eliminate cravings and any withdrawal whatsoever and since you have a tolerance to heroin 6mg probably isn’t high enough. You were already doing around 4mg on some days so 4-6mg just isn’t enough. I really hope you listen because doing things your way is not cutting it. Taking the dose you believe is right is not doing it. Things aren’t working so well on your terms right now so please listen to us.

There’s something triggering you to where you’ll be doing ok and boom you immediately go buy heroin. You have to break the cycle my friend or this roller coaster will go on forever, just like it is now. What I’m afraid of is you not getting out before something worse happens. Just buprenorphine alone isn’t going to keep ya from certain things and if you truly are serious and ready to stop using then you need to do this the legit way & get a doctor and a counselor and work on some recovery time. Buying the suboxone is obviously going to be too tempting because you’re still in that routine of picking up heroin if you want to. It’s there so why not, I totally see how that could be a complete sabotage before you even take your first dose of suboxone. Too much temptation and not enough separation of ppl, places and things in the using world.

I know it’s hard and this treatment is expensive but if I can pay for it any one can. I’m going through a huge financial struggle right now and getting bk into the working world after being extremely comfortable financially but the one thing I’m making sure of is that my treatment comes first. There’s a way you can do it and not have to buy from a dealer. I think that’s a huge issue that could be causing you to pick up. Regardless of any of that, please increase your dose..... there won’t be anymore feeling bad or anymore cravings.

Keep being honest, don’t think we’re judging you or disappointed in you, we will be here to support you no matter what! We’re all in this together and nobody else knows how you’re feeling better than us :)
Jennifer

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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by razor55 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:06 am

Totally agree with every word Jenn just said. Ditto..rr

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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by owlcrow » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:58 am

Today I am starting to feel like I am going to make it. I think by tomorrow I should be feeling pretty good since today I would say I am about 70 to 80%. I am still at 6 mg but will increase if I feel the need. Meaning before I do something stupid like use again I would add 2 mg and wait to see if that takes care of it. If not I will add again. But I am thinking I am beginning to stabilize now. I will check in later again.
Thanks for all the support suggestions and replies it helps more than you know. I really like this forum the people here are great! Thanks again
OC

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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by Amy-Work In Progress » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:49 pm

Try the 8mg! Remember, you can always go back down once you're stabilized, if you think you're on too much.

Your cravings should be completely eliminated! Your withdrawal symptoms should be completely gone! Only then are you on the correct dose!

Keep up the good work!

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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by owlcrow » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:59 pm

Amy,

Thanks for reply. Shortly after the last post I got to thinking and decided to add another 2mg today which makes 8. I do feel better, I even think I can go to work Thursday. I am going to try 4 mg in the morning and split dose (if needed) 4 mg evening or night. Maybe a 4 / 2 morning night dose. I will see how I feel and go from there. I am going to use the lowest dose that keeps me stable as soon as I fine tune this in the next few days. If I wake and feel like crap I will dose more I will play by ear so to speak. I am doing much better I ate food without having to force it down today which is a good sign things are making a turn for the better. I will have to see how sleep goes but I am getting tired and it's rather early. Will keep posting hopefully my screw ups will help someone down the road.
I want to add I can state from experience "do not mix any other opiate with suboxone" it does not pay the transition is much harder. Stop using , wait, induce your meds and move forward. For me easier said than done but the advice is solid since I know what happens and it is a rollercoaster ride you don't want to be on. I know cause I am just getting off that coaster, the ride sucks.

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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by owlcrow » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:19 pm

I was able to get by with 7 mg Wed. and Today I was able to go to work and only took 2 mg upon waking. (The last couple of days I have been adding every few hours as needed till I got stable). I took the 2 mg at 4:30 am and another 2 mg at 4:30 pm. I feel very close to normal although I struggled through work it is a physically demanding job. Got home shortly after 2 , (start early leave early) and finally got to sit down. I felt better in a few minutes I was a bit worn out from working.
At that point I was contemplating what to do with my dose since I have not developed a schedule yet but am thinking on lowering dose quickly, especially if I get through tomorrow at 4 mg with no issues. I don't think I should have any at that point I will be day 4 since using.
I am usually past acute withdrawals by day 3 or 4. After a week to ten days I start to get my appetite back which is at about 50% now I can't wait to be hungry again. I plan to stay on subs for a few months maybe longer but at a very low dose once I can get there I am planning to reduce immediately.
If at any point I begin to get urges to use I will increase my dose I can get subs a lot cheaper than buying dope on a daily basis. I also want to put using behind me again I was doing so much better before the relapse I was saving money etc. And not having to worry about being ill and all the crappy stuff active addiction brings.
I know I will hear the what is going to keep me from another relapse. I have been contemplating seeing a psychotherapist to explore underlying suspicions as to why I do well sometimes for very long periods and then fall back on old very bad behavior.
Knowing I know before I relapse it's something I will regret, there has to be a reason I would repeat and relapse again and again. I am getting too old for this shit, Also if I could get my shit together I may be able to afford to live and retire at 62 or 65 not having to work till I am much older than I want to because I couldn't fucking grow up.
Ok I will save it for therapy sounds kind of funny when I say it to myself but in all seriousness I think some therapy may be helpful even if it's bi weekly or even monthly I will have to see what it is going to take to stay clean this time around. But I think I got this and am developing a plan that may actually work if I work it.

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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by BlueLight » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:09 pm

Stop trying to reduce your dose! Stay on at least 8 mg for the next several months. Book an appointment with a Suboxone doctor so you have a steady, affordable, legal, prescription. Then make appointment with mental health addiction counselor.

I’ve lost 6 friends so far this year because they kept thinking they could control their recovery, usage, and pick and choose their Suboxone dose daily. They ultimately relapsed, overdosed, and died.

All I can tell you is what I have seen work first hand for me and dozens and dozens of other opiate addicts, that are still in recovery today. All of our recovery programs are very similar, with some slight differences here and there. I can also tell you what I’ve seen not work. Does that mean your way can’t work? No, but I haven’t seen it work yet.

I don’t think you realize how close to the edge of the cliff you are. You think you’ve got this thing almost under control, and I see someone just one or two bad decisions or cravings away from possible tragedy. You deserve a decent life in recovery!

Now take your 8 mg of Suboxone once daily when you wake up, and book those appointments!!!

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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by jennjenn » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:35 am

I agree with Bluelight, you’re bouncing around from dose to dose trying to get by with as little as possible and even though I do understand what you’re doing, it just isn’t very reliable in the midst of a heroin relapse.

I get it, this treatment is expensive for a lot of us and I get not wanting to be dependent on a medication for any longer than you have to BUT in order for this to work, you have to do it the right way or else you’re still spinning your wheels, just at a slower pace but still spinning nonetheless. You won’t ever stabilize by just taking what works best for you that particular day. If you don’t stabilize then your body is just winging it each individual day. I totally understand what you are trying to do and it does make a lot of sense for someone without a doctor and trying to get themselves picked bk up after a relapse and like Bluelight said it could work, but I haven’t seen it work yet either. The way you’re using it by only planning on a few months then stopping, it’s just risky especially not taking a stable dose and working on your recovery. I don’t want to lecture you because you seem like an extremely smart person and I have to say that the way you’re resisting the temptation to use heroin every single day since you’re buying the suboxone off the street is pretty powerful to just go one day in that temptation. I’m just afraid that this is going to all just fall through one day when you’re having a bad day not feeling well and -boom- bk in the middle of a dangerous relapse. That’s just my fear for you.

I won’t lecture ya anymore because I don’t wanna sound preachy and you get mad at me :) I just wanna see you succeed in every single way!
Jennifer

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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by Amy-Work In Progress » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:37 pm

I second what BL said. Stop trying to reduce your dose!!

It doesn't seem like you are listening to anyone here but yourself. But listening to yourself is only leading to constant relapse back onto heroin. You need to be at a therapeutic dose so that your cravings are gone and all withdrawal symptoms are gone. And then you need to STAY THERE!! Not taper!!

I honestly don't understand your stubbornness about reducing your dose. We are telling you that doesn't work and it feels like you are there with your fingers in your ears going, "LALALALALALALA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!

Why come here for advice and then not take advice???

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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by BlueLight » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:25 am

It’s been a week since we’ve heard from you Owlcrow, I hope you are doing well. Let us know how you’re doing. Cheers!

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Re: abusing subs with h and having a hard time getting stabl

Post by owlcrow » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:51 pm

Hi, Thanks for asking how I am doing. I have to say I am doing quite well. I am stable on 4 mg and taking it at night just before bed say 10 to 10:30. Don't want to begin fluctuating the time by too much. I am able to sleep, work, eat etc . I have returned to a normal state. No cravings or urges and all is well.
I must admit I have had such a poor experience with rehabs and detox center that I am sorry to say that, is not going to be a part of my recovery at this time. I am watching myself very carefully and started a notebook and write down some daily thoughts and have been making plans to get some neglected aspects of my responsibilities attention.
This will make me a very busy person for the rest of the summer. I have a house to paint which needs scraping in the worst way as well as fixing 3 window sills that have rotted. I have two yards to take care of that both have trees and bushes that need to be pruned. I have to repair my riding lawnmower to make things a bit quicker and easier. I have a "straight" nephew to help me with the paint job, after work and weekends, although that is on hold for the next couple of days the temperature is in the mid 90's making it unbearable due to the humid climate. Next week it is supposed to cool down to the mid to high 70's so those days will be used accordingly.
I am looking into seeing a therapist I was seeing a couple of years ago to help keep me focused as well as accountable for my actions. (I did very well when I saw her bi weekly) I actually have an appointment next week to see her. I talked to her on the phone and told her about my current situation and she was ready and willing to discuss the whole thing with me.
So for now this is what is going on. I also am planning a long slow taper from the suboxone over the next 6 months to a year depending on how I am doing. I am in no hurry to quit but cannot afford a Doctor so rely on an alternate source for medication. It is not from a dealer but from a group of friends in recovery that sell a part of their meds to pay for theirs.
I know that many may say/think going on without a Doctor is unwise but My insurance will not cover it and a cash doctor and meds is $400 bucks for the first week then 3 more weeks at 150 for visit and very close to a hundred for a weeks worth the meds which will end up costing around 1200 for the first month alone. I can get the subs for less than the pharmacy and with no visit costs not to mention the weekly urine tests that are very costly as well adding another 300 to make 1200 1500.
So with that being said that would literally leave me with about 200 bucks a month for food electricity, auto insurance, water bill, etc. I do not have the luxury those on state insurance have where the meds are like $3.00 and no cost at the clinic. That is what people I know are paying.
The whole thing downright pisses me off, I work have insurance through work which I pay weekly for at 45 dollars the deductible for the year is $5,000.00 so I can't afford to go to the doctor.
Ok I will go on no longer but I wanted to try to make clear some of the reasons I am against going to treatment. The counselor is $40.00 per visit twice a month I can handle that.
So all in all I am doing well have a plan to stay out of "trouble" and wanted to shed some light on my reasoning to reject a detox center or rehab facility. I don't like the meetings around here it is nothing other than hearing old war stories and people who want to go party afterwards and I have tried several of them within a reasonable distance from my place.
I will check in again soon and relay how things are going. At this point I am headed in the right direction with a positive outlook into the future!

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