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 Post subject: Day 38 and Counting
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:24 am 
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Good Morning All,
Started my jump off sub on Aug. 5, so day 38. Just wanted to comment on the fear associated with withdrawal and my experience so far. Almost as a guide for me, though Dr. J said there is no magic recipe, I looked to Dr. Steven Scanlon's piece on how he detoxes people off subs at his South Florida office. Ironically part of his Title is "Fear is Caused by Lack of Knowledge". Yet his piece brought on the unnecessary fear and anxiousness I anticipated. First, I believe he tapers people way too fast. Once at 2 mg he lowers by .25 WEEKLY-not the 5% Dr. J. recommends every 10 days to two weeks. BTW I am not a pt. of Dr. J. Also he says the watershed amount is 2mg. when people experience PAWS--not for me, it was .25mg. Secondly once the jump is instituted he has you on clonidine every 4 hours, on librium, and a sleeping agent (not benzos). He states you go through two distinct phases-mu--typical for physical flu like symptons for approx 10 days or so. But, he says between generally days 10-28 you go through depression, anxiety, get in"dark places", etc. Then by day 30 you sorta turn the corner and by three months you are much more comfortable.
I only took clonidine at bedtime, never any librium, and I use benzos for sleep and have for years, but that's another story. Folks, I guess I was one of the lucky ones, but to this day I haven't experienced the anxiety, depression (Paws) that Scanlon speaks of. This experiences has NOT BEEN EASY, with crazy fatigue, insomnia (getting better for last week) but I feel I have turned that corner. No, not 100% by any means but clearly there is light at the end of the tunnel. By week 8 I expect to be there. So, buckle up. If this old guy (70) can withstand the hurricane you fearful ones starting out, be strong, chin up, it can be done. Taper as low as you can, be very patient, TAKE your time with the taper (5% every two weeks) and yes, not easy but doable.


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 Post subject: Re: Day 38 and Counting
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:11 pm 
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Thank you Woody! I'm really glad you are giving us your perspective! It is too bad that Dr. Scanlon's article induces fear while purporting to reduce it!

I, too, think that Dr. Junig's recommendations for tapering are far superior to what you describe from the other doctor. It gives people hope that you were able to taper down your dose and then step off in a way that didn't cause you too much pain and discomfort. Yet, as you say, undergoing this process is not easy. That's how the process should be known, as doable but not easy.

I hope you experience continued progress!

Amy

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 Post subject: Re: Day 38 and Counting
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:38 pm 
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Dr. Scanlan says a lot of things which sound scientific, but are in fact, very unscientific. One of his earlier articles suggested that 80 percent of feelings are blocked on Suboxone. While this may or may not be accurate, there wasn't a citation to a study that explained how this number was determined, so I have to put it in the pseudoscience category, or say that it is merely hyperbole. That same article began by mentioning the weight proportionality of Suboxone compared with morphine. It is stronger when comparisons based on weight are made, but as many know, there is a well-documented ceiling effect with Suboxone, and it is only a partial agonist at the mu receptor. So, that article comes off as dishonest and poorly researched. The second article he wrote, published about four years later, comes off the same way, in my view, which I think I brought up in another post.

I was also baffled at the "every four hours" recommendation for clonidine, which was completely contrary to my doctor's recommendations. Clonidine makes me extremely tired, albeit not always sleepy, when I take it once a day, so I couldn't imagine taking it six times a day, especially given the taper described in that article has a relatively low jump off point.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear you are improving! I've been following your story, and like others, it has helped give me the extra steam to push through the toughest moments. Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: Day 38 and Counting
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:05 pm 
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Hi woody,

I am glad to hear your fairing well! I am about two weeks ahead of you and I have been improving slowly. My energy level is growing although I still have sleep issues, but don't know if it is related to suboxone at this point. I am documenting my experience so time will tell. I have had trouble sleeping for years so it may be that. I had gone to a methadone clinic very early in the morning to wait for the place to open to assure a front place in the line up for about six years so I could get to work on time. I think I may be accustomed to waking early because of those days. I am sleeping about 5 or 6 hours each night and I am fine when I wake so I am not sure.
Going forward I am taking things in stride and see you are doing the same, I wish you the best on your journey keep posting the information will help others.


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 Post subject: Re: Day 38 and Counting
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:43 am 
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Im on day 34 and I feel better too. Finally RLS and sneezes went away. Still have loose stool though. Im def Looking forward to Day 38. Keep up the progress woody!


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
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