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 Post subject: need help with induction
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:44 pm 
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I relapsed last week on heroin. I use about 5 Philly heroin\fentanyl bags a day IV...after 2 overdoses I'm 2 days in a row i needed to get back on subs I was on them for about 7 months 8 mg a day. I have subs...and xanax and withdrawal medicine. I waited 23 hours until my pupils were big and I was tearing AMD yawning and sniffling and then took 2 mg and sat in the tub for 3 hours. Things didn't get better I Just felt the sAme.. I then took another 2 mg and an hour later was hit with the worst precipitated withdrawal and freaked out and screamed in terror and agony from The pure pain and hell i was feeling...I used heroin all day today..I wanna get back on, but Idk how. I have to wait at least 24 hours probably even mpre...I have 3 more bags too...


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:38 am 
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Frank, you know the right formula. You know what you have to do. And we know that you can do this! It's just a matter of seeing it through.

One of the biggest problems with heroin is that we have no idea if it was cut at all with fentanyl. If it was, that means that you are in for a longer withdrawal, because it stays in your fat cells. In that case there is nothing you can do besides spend a couple days in withdrawal and then keep moving forward with the buprenorphine even if there are PWs. I wish I could be more helpful, but this is the reality.

I want to know what you've been doing to work on your recovery during the time you were on suboxone. Relapse happens, it's true. But when you look back on this will you be able to point to any lessons you learned? What led to your relapse? What was going on in the couple weeks leading up to it? It's important that you really analyze why you are back in this position. Of course, that can wait until you are back on a safe dose of buprenorphine.

Let us know how you're doing and whether you have started the induction process again.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:57 pm 
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Amy-Work In Progress wrote:
Frank, you know the right formula. You know what you have to do. And we know that you can do this! It's just a matter of seeing it through.

One of the biggest problems with heroin is that we have no idea if it was cut at all with fentanyl. If it was, that means that you are in for a longer withdrawal, because it stays in your fat cells. In that case there is nothing you can do besides spend a couple days in withdrawal and then keep moving forward with the buprenorphine even if there are PWs. I wish I could be more helpful, but this is the reality.x
I want to know what you've been doing to work on your recovery during the time you were on suboxone. Relapse happens, it's true. But when you look back on this will you be able to point to any lessons you learned? What led to your relapse? What was going on in the couple weeks leading up to it? It's important that you really analyze why you are back in this position. Of course, that can wait until you are back on a safe dose of buprenorphine.

Let us know how you're doing and whether you have started the induction process again.

Amy


yes my heroin was definitely cut with fentanyl. i took my last shot at around noon today. i have xanax and suboxone and ambien. i am trying to get into a detox and see if they can properly induct me back onto suboxone..i am staying at my family's house (two brothers and my two parents) in the meantime...i am having lots of trouble getting back onto suboxone...didnt know it was from the fent because i thought that meant it has a shorter half life


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:47 pm 
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No, unfortunately fentanyl is lipid soluble, which means it stores in the fat cells of the body. It actually can take several days of withdrawal before you can take buprenorphine without going into precipitated withdrawals.

I'm sorry that's the case and that you were misinformed. It is unfortunately a matter of being uncomfortable for a few days. The only thing you could do, and I am definitely not suggesting it, because it's illegal and potentially dangerous, is to take a true short acting opioid like oxycodone for a few days while your body has time to clear the fentanyl. Then you can do the 24 hours of withdrawal and induct with a bit more confidence. I'm no doctor, for sure. I have seen this technique suggested before to folks who were transitioning from methadone to suboxone. You have to use your best judgment or consult a physician or pharmacist.

I'm sorry that you are in for some discomfort. I hope that you can use the memory of this discomfort to keep you from a future relapse.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:06 pm 
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Hey frank.

Amy and I are always warning ppl about the heroin possibly having fentanyl in it. It's becoming more and more frequent seems like. I actually scanned over an article the other day about this big heroin bust in Nashville and turned out it had fentanyl in it or something like that (I didn't have time to read the whole story). Fentanyl is probably the most powerful opiate out there.... if not the most powerful it's pretty dang close.

Because the H had fentanyl in it, that makes ur induction a little different than if u were just coming off H because now ur going to have to wait longer than u would have initially. But that's ok, u can do it, it will be well worth it in the end.

U definitely don't need to have anymore H around ya. Don't have the mindset that u may need it around in case u get sick or whatever. Be done with the H as of now. That's the only way u can do this correctly. If u feel like it'd be better for u to enter an inpatient facility then do whatever u think is best for u. But plenty of ppl have induced from fentanyl (or H with fentanyl) successfully, so don't be afraid.

U can do this frank! Relapse happens to a lot of addicts. To keep from another relapse u need to start counseling and meetings of some sort, u have to get the tools to keep this from happening again.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:51 pm 
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Hey Frank, I know you're having a rough time but you're doing the right thing by coming back to the forum. The information Amy and Jenn have given you is spot on. The PW is from the fentanyl and it's going to take a little time to get it out of your system. You need to get rid of that junk right now, and I don't mean putting into your veins. Get that H out of your house and out of sight. Don't think about how much you paid for it. Don't think about how just a little will help ease your suffering. That's a lie and it will only prolong your misery. If you need to, give it to someone you trust and tell them to dispose of it right away.

This is also very important Frank... Stop taking the xanax immediately unless it's prescribed and you've been taking it for an extended period of time. Every treatment center in my area prohibited me from entering their program because I had benzos in my system. I was taking them as prescribed and could prove it but it didn't matter to them. They told me it was "policy" and wouldn't bend the rules no matter how sick I was. One treatment center told me to come back in 30 days and this was when I was at the peak of my withdrawal. I couldn't believe they would turn someone away that wanted treatment but facility after facility did exactly that once they found out about the benzos. I would hate to hear about that happening to you. Just giving you a head's up.

Hang in there and keep fighting the good fight. Recovery is possible and you know from experience that relief is just around the corner with the subs. Let this be a powerful reminder how fast you can lose control over your drug use. But at the same time, don't beat yourself up over and over and feel like you failed. Relapse is part of the journey and so is getting back up after falling down. You hear me? Pick yourself back up and try again. You deserve better than how you feel right now... don't forget that Frank.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:54 pm 
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i used to take about 20 mg of immodium and it would stop me from withdrawling. this worked like a charm..however it would fuck up my heroin high. say i take 20 or 30 mg of immodium (sometimes only needed 10 mg) to stop my withdrawal, and then 8 hours later i try to shoot up heroin..i will get high as fuck for about 15 minutes, and then i get thrown immediately into withdrawal.

my plan is:

use immodium and xanax (if xanax is needed) for 2 or 3 days to help get me through and get the fentanly out of my system. and then take the suboxone. i am just worried the loperamide will not let the bupe bind

i am so fucked...its gonna hurt real bad


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:57 pm 
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OpenMind wrote:
Hey Frank, I know you're having a rough time but you're doing the right thing by coming back to the forum. The information Amy and Jenn have given you is spot on. The PW is from the fentanyl and it's going to take a little time to get it out of your system. You need to get rid of that junk right now, and I don't mean putting into your veins. Get that H out of your house and out of sight. Don't think about how much you paid for it. Don't think about how just a little will help ease your suffering. That's a lie and it will only prolong your misery. If you need to, give it to someone you trust and tell them to dispose of it right away.

This is also very important Frank... Stop taking the xanax immediately unless it's prescribed and you've been taking it for an extended period of time. Every treatment center in my area prohibited me from entering their program because I had benzos in my system. I was taking them as prescribed and could prove it but it didn't matter to them. They told me it was "policy" and wouldn't bend the rules no matter how sick I was. One treatment center told me to come back in 30 days and this was when I was at the peak of my withdrawal. I couldn't believe they would turn someone away that wanted treatment but facility after facility did exactly that once they found out about the benzos. I would hate to hear about that happening to you. Just giving you a head's up.

Hang in there and keep fighting the good fight. Recovery is possible and you know from experience that relief is just around the corner with the subs. Let this be a powerful reminder how fast you can lose control over your drug use. But at the same time, don't beat yourself up over and over and feel like you failed. Relapse is part of the journey and so is getting back up after falling down. You hear me? Pick yourself back up and try again. You deserve better than how you feel right now... don't forget that Frank.

- OpenMInd



i didn't take the xanax yet. i just have it just in case of precipitated withdrawal or things get terrible...

i am thinking of going and copping some oxycodone pills...


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:08 pm 
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i am thinking of going and copping some oxycodone pills...



That is not smart Frank. You've been here long enough to know we are all about recovery so you'll get no support from us if you walk down that path.

Have you read the blogs about PW written by Dr. Junig yet? Time to do some research on the subject. If memory serves me right you need to up your dose of Suboxone to override the other opiates you have on your receptors. Like up to 24 mg's or thereabout. Yes, you'll feel like death warmed over for about 3 days but each day will get better if you just stay the course. I may be off a little on that one but you can verify the results yourself first. It's your recovery and you need to do the work to get where you can get off the H/F and back onto Suboxone again.

You are a perfect example of why we say addicts need to be on Suboxone for at least a year before doing any tapering or jumping off. Misuse of the drug tends to lean towards a slip, like in your case. We want you back on Suboxone and maybe this time you'll consider staying on longer and seeking out a good recovery program.

Please do not continue to listen to that little addict vampire on your shoulder whispering death thrills into your ear. Do what is right regardless of how much it hurts. Choose life Frank. Please.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:33 pm 
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I did offer that up as a possibility because I read a couple of articles about doctors prescribing short acting opioids to take while waiting for the body to rid itself of the fentanyl. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it. I did say that I couldn't recommend it because of the inherent dangers of adding another opioid to the mix. It's something that should only be done under the supervision of a doctor.

Frank is seemingly doing everything on his own. I guess that is what he will end up doing, despite our advice and good intentions. I guess, it's just better if you keep it to yourself, Frank, if that's what you end up doing. Not that there's much difference with Frank getting sub on the street.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:59 am 
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Frank the only thing I want to stress heavily to u is if u do more H at any time, ur putting urself bk at the starting point over and over again. The H ur getting has fentanyl in it so ur waiting time is going to be longer than someone who's been on H without fentanyl in it. It's already hard for u to wait through this induction, so doing H is putting u bk at the starting line every time. Just remember that when ur tempted.

Why on earth would heroin have fentanyl in it anyway, I mean really? Taking something that's already powerful and putting an opiate in it that's extremely powerful is insanely dangerous to me. I know, I know these ppl obviously aren't thinking of anything other than $$ but what a recipe for disaster.

Frank I hope u see how dangerous that can be and stay away from the heroin at all costs. I know the risks we take in active addiction mindset, I used to chew the fentanyl patches because I couldn't find anything else but that. Knowing what I know now, I'd be scared to touch it. But bk then I wasn't thinking of anything but getting relief and getting high. I truly hope u can just saddle up and wait the extra time and induce bk to buprenorphine. If u don't, ur life is going to be chaos until u do. Good luck man, I'm definitely going to be thinking about ya!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:20 pm 
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I have an idea about that, Jenn. Why would drug cartels be adding fentanyl to heroin? I think it's because of people like Frank.

Suboxone is finally being more and more accepted as a legitimate way to treat opioid addiction. What might prevent heroin users from using the medication? Make it difficult for them to start on buprenorphine! Start cutting their short-acting opioid with an opioid that causes precipitated withdrawal to occur when an addict is trying to shift to the stability of suboxone. It's actually pretty genius from their perspective. Because how many heroin addicts will know about how fentanyl sticks around in the body? They might try to transition on their own, like Frank, but it feels easier to the addict to keep taking heroin instead of completing the transition. That's what I think at least.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:58 pm 
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I just have no idea what the reason could be. U make a very good point Amy. There's probably a lot of thought behind why they do this, like u said.

I just assumed they possibly did it to make the heroin stronger so they could use less heroin? But that doesn't seem right because that sounds like it'd be more costly to do that. Maybe it doesn't cost much to do that. And how do they get the fentanyl in the heroin? I mean there's so many questions. I'm sure someone has answers or ideas too. It just seems so dangerous to take heroin with fentanyl.

I remember awhile bk, someone on the forum said that it's not very common to get heroin that has fentanyl in it. But honestly I'm seeing it more and more. I've heard two different ppl this week needing advice that's tried to induce on buprenorphine from heroin that had fentanyl in it. I saw that article about Nashville police had busted someone with huge amounts of heroin with fentanyl. All that in this past week. It's catching on and it's happening more than ppl think.

Now there's a big thing about pills from China. I watched a tv show where ppl are able to order pill press machines from china to produce their own pills and sell. I have no clue what exactly was the pills, possibly fentanyl, but the dose being measured out to put into this press by someone with no education. These ppl are probably getting paid to do it for pills. Even if it hasn't gotten to our individual areas yet, it's coming. They're finding these machines every day being shipped to the US.

All these know it all ppl talking negative about buprenorphine while this is going on. It just amazes me. Addiction is even more dangerous than it was two years ago and I didn't know it could get much worse.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:54 pm 
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in my city, philly, most of the methadone patients get high on fentanyl. some blocks just sell pure fent, and it keeps the methadone patients as clientele. I am getting on methadone on Tuesday. ive tried many times even waiting 3 days to get back on subs, no success.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:46 pm 
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Well, good luck with the methadone, Frank! If you ever taper down to 30mg or so, maybe you can look into trying suboxone again. I wish you the best!

Amy

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:05 am 
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Good luck frank! I honestly believe that methadone is a good choice for some. It will also keep u in line as far as drug testing goes, if u use they'll know.

Sounds like ur area is full of fentanyl and that's really sad. That's taking someone's tolerance very high.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:54 pm 
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I usually use in Camden, where fentanyl is not as accepted by the users...and I have been using there for 5 years with 0 overdoses...after just 3 days of using in Kensington (Philly) I overdosed twice..

its all fent...dealers will even tell u "I put some fent in there..but not too much..just a little bit u feel me..." like yeah it sucks trusting 15 year old Puerto rican Lord FLocco Rico Churi with handling my carfentanil in the ug range...


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