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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 3:16 pm 
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Hey everyone, I have read many stories on this site but have never posted my own until now.

I'll keep my history brief. I started doing opiates when I was 14. It became much more regular when I was 15 or 16. By the time I was 17 I was addicted to my father's percocet. I then began buying 10/325 Norcos. I would take nearly 14 every day. By the time I was 18 or 19 I had found that buying Suboxone was not only a cheaper option, but the best option to prevent me from moving on to dope. I was on it for just about 3 years.
Year 1: 8mg-12mg of suboxone daily
Year 2: 4mg and then 2mg of suboxone daily
Year 3: 1mg then back up to 2mg of suboxone daily
Last two weeks: I was having a bad time at work and wanted to quit. I have a really good paying job for what I do and I love my boss and didn't wanna quit. I started taking an extra half each day to take the edge off. So for the last two weeks I was taking 6mg

I took my last dose on April 30th
Yes, I quit cold turkey from approximately 6mg and I am here to tell you to stop reading bad experiences because you may get lucky like me.
It's nearly impossible to desperately want to quit doing something, but you are too afraid to quit because of how you will feel.
I was that way for so long.
I prepared for the worst and maybe it helped, but I know I was very lucky.
I used a multi vitamin, vitamin B, St John's Wort, advil, immodium, Ensure drinks, coffee, and my prescription klonopin. Before anyone assumes that this was an easy experience for me because of the klonopin, understand that I only took it to help me sleep. There was only one day that I took a very small dose (.25mg) for actual anxiety.
I'll keep each day's experience brief as I never had too many symptoms anyway:

Day 1: Tons of yawning, a little bit of lack of motivation, RLS was minor and would come and go.
Night 1: Yawning, a little bit depressed, restless for about an hour. Slept pretty good.
Mentally: Not bad at all. No cravings or racing thoughts.

Day 2: Yawning, very minor RLS, mild headache, a few sneezing fits, minor diarrhea.
Night 2: Yawning, RLS got bad for a bit but came and went in waves, bit more uncomfortable than night 1, got about 8 hours of broken sleep.
Mentally: No cravings or racing thoughts. Felt much better than the day before.

Day 3: Woke up tired which went away pretty quickly, bad headache for about 10 minutes, minor stomach cramps, RLS felt worse but still came in waves, felt very energetic.
Night 3: Woke up around 2:45 and felt incredible, fell back to sleep around 5:00. Had minor RLS and some sneezing fits.
Mentally: Same as day 2.

Day 4: Woke up very tired and lethargic which went away after about 10 minutes, minor hot flashes, I can feel the RLS is beginning to go away, felt really good and energetic. Had some minor anxiety at one point.
Night 4: Arms and legs both felt a little restless at bed time, woke up around 4:00 and couldn't fall asleep for about an hour.
Mentally: Felt great. No cravings. Excited to see how I feel when this is all over.

Day 5: Minor RLS upon waking up, pretty much no other symptoms for the day besides a minor fit of anxiety.
Night 5: Woke up around 3:30 and couldn't fall asleep for an hour.
Mentally: Felt great. Still no cravings.

Day 6: Minor headache, minor sneezing, very minor RLS which came and went, was cold for most of the day.
Night 6: Woke up and couldn't fall asleep for about an hour.
Mentally: Had my first craving but I attribute that to talking to my mother about how opiates used to make me feel. Craving went away after about half an hour and never came back.

Day 7: I made it a week! Minor headache, lots of energy but then crashed hard. No other symptoms.
Night 7: Woke up several times and took about an hour or two to fall back to sleep each time.
Mentally: Good mood. Happy to see my family. No cravings.

Day 8: Lots of sneezing, yawning subsided, diarrhea came back for a little bit. First time in 3 days.
Night 8: Felt so good I actually chose to stay awake until 3:30. Fell asleep easily.
Mentally: Very hopeful.

Day 9: Only slept for 3 hours because of the excitement of my new energy, felt incredible. Minor headache and lots of sneezing.
Night 9: Minor restless arms and legs. Got about 8 hours of sleep.
Mentally: No cravings. A few dwelling thoughts.

Day 10: Minor headache, minor anxiety, lots of sneezing.
Night 10: Slept fine.
Mentally: Hopeful, no cravings.

Day 11: Excited to be returning to work. Yawning and sneezing. Had a bad headache for a while and lost my energy for about an hour.
Night 11: Arms felt a little restless at bed time, woke up twice but fell asleep within twenty minutes.
Mentally: Clear minded for the most part. Still very hopeful.

Day 12: Sneezing, a bit tired for most of the day. Day 2 back at work. DEFINITELY the beginning of PAWS.
Night 12: Woke up many times but fell back to sleep immediately.
Mentally: A bit depressed but very hopeful.

Day 13: Mild headache, tired again, sneezing subsided a lot.
Night 13: Slept straight through the night.
Mentally: Drained, but still hopeful.

Day 14: I made it two weeks!! A bit tired, not a lot of motivation, had a good day until I became very tired for an hour, went to bed early.
Night 14: Slept for about 9 hours.
Mentally: Still drained but very hopeful.

Day 15: That's today, May 15th 2017! Lack of motivation and a bit tired. Less tired than yesterday but less motivation as well.

While the PAWS is beginning to kick my butt, I'd rate the initial withdrawals a 3 out of 10 in terms of difficulty. It was like having a very minor cold. More of an inconvenience than a hell.

I hope that people read this and it inspires them to take that step and quit. I know everyone is different and I truly got lucky, but maybe you will too. Do not be afraid to better your life!

For those wondering, I took about .5mg of klonopin each night for sleep for the first 4 or 5 days. Now I don't need it for sleep.

Would be glad to answer any other questions.

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:03 pm 
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Hey wilch....

Sounds great so far. Just because your WD symptoms aren't all that bad doesn't mean it's easy
I give you much credit.

In terms of the most acute symptoms, I most frequently hear about a month. Not wanting to discourage you, just communicating what I frequently hear.

The bigger issue it seems to me is what you have in place to safeguard what will be your hard won sobriety.
Again, not wanting to sound discouraging. Just to remind you that you're an addict for a reason, and that reason...more likely reasons plural.... aren;t generally just going to spontaneously disappear by themselves.

You can and apparently are quitting your medication and that's fine, but you can't just quit being an addict. Recovery takes time and effort.

But you already know all that. Keep posting. We all want to hear your progress!

Best wishes,
Godfrey


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:39 pm 
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Yes, you can not act like you defeated it and you are golden for the rest of your life. No matter what you are still an addict, there is a reason you became addicted. I work hard on my recovery every single day, because I know I have not defeated it.. I have won the battle but not the war.

I am 3 weeks off of Bupe, and I paid the price big time during my tapering. When I look back I am very shocked at what I went through. But, I didn't use any narcotics I used gabapentin for 10 days. Good for you that what you experienced wasn't bad. People should not be afraid to get off of Suboxone because the end result is worth it, but they should be aware that it is not easy. The person keeping themselves strong and their guard up will have an easier time when things do get tough, than someone that thinks it is sunshine and rainbows.

I am not saying that is what you think, but I still think people should have knowledge with their tapering, and that they could have a tough time as I did. If I would have been oblivious to the tapering process, and jump I don't think I would have made it through. Great job, and remember to keep your guard up that way when things get tough mentally you have the strength to stop it in its tracks. :D


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:14 pm 
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Wiichongo, I appreciate your remarks. So many people drop by this site to describe horrible experiences, often writing things that have been shown to be completely untrue-- for example that 'it is harder to stop buprenorphine than heroin', etc. Such comments are simply ridiculous from any objective perspective; there have been studies showing the lower severity of withdrawal from buprenorphine compared to agonists; the ceiling effect of buprenorphine limits tolerance, making it impossible for the severity of buprenorphine withdrawal to be near as bad as agonist withdrawal; for years, abstinence-based treatment programs (no friends of buprenorphine) have used buprenorphine as a bridge to abstinence; and anyone who has worked with patients detoxing from opioids knows the difference in severity of withdrawal in patients stopping agonists, compared to buprenorphine.

Yet people keep spreading the nonsense that stopping buprenorphine is 'more difficult than the six times I stopped heroin.' A bit of thought explains why those impressions persist; people have very poor recollections of the past, especially when comparing emotional or painful experiences; and people tend to blame others for experiences rather than take ownership of them, making it easier to blame a medication than to take responsibility for misery caused by use of heroin.

I often point out that detox is but one step in the journey toward abstinence. But I appreciate a description of withdrawal from buprenorphine that appears similar to what I witness in my own patients. About 10% of my stable patients stop buprenorphine each year, and most miss a week of work at most. The longer people have been on buprenorphine, the easier the taper-- in contrast to the baseless comments that 'the longer you take it, the harder it is to stop'. And those with a positive, optimistic attitude-- like the initiator of this thread-- clearly do better than the people expecting doom and gloom.

So yes, people-- don't psych yourself out. Is it easy to taper off opioids? Of course not. There are physical and psychological sides to tapering off opioids. The physical side with buprenorphine is not nearly as severe as detoxing off heroin or fentanyl, when in my case I couldn't walk for a few days. And if you are really struggling with the psychological part, you may just not be ready yet. Give it another year, and give it another try. But don't buy into the nonsense, that buprenorphine withdrawal is uniquely difficult. There is simply no basis for those statements, beyond the human tendency to blame anything other than our own behaviors for the challenges we face.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:43 pm 
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Well getting off of Bupe is not harder in certain aspects like mentally. Here is the thing and this is from my experience. Full opiates are harder when we look at this physically yes you are hit hard with the withdrawals, but hey you go through that hell for about a week. But, the mental part is so tough that you end up back on your doc. Now, with Bupe the physical withdrawal is less severe, BUT.. it goes on and on and when you think it is over it will be there to say hey what's up its not over yet.

The mental part is much easier because you have been clean from a full opiate because of Bupe. I consider Bupe withdrawals worse because I went through debilitating pain for months, no matter what anyone says this is the truth and I stick by the truth. I think I had it much worse than most, and maybe I was an unlucky person. But, I do not feed anyone crap I say the truth even if it isn't sunshine and rainbows. Most people will give up on coming off of Bupe, before they will with a full opiate because it goes on and on.

But, you are 10 times more likely to stay clean if you were on Bupe. Although I went through a lot during tapering, I still consider Bupe great and the only thing I would change is to have gotten off of it earlier. Not after a couple of months on it because that is not enough time to help the recovery of full opiates. I would have stayed on it for a year instead of 6 years. And the suboxdoc is right no one should be afraid that is the worst thing you can do it will make it way harder.

What I am saying is stay positive but know where you stand and have knowledge of the process. Do not go into it thinking it is easy or you will not make it. Stay positive and know that it may take time to heal, especially mentally. If you think you are recovered from being on Bupe you are not. Bupe is still feeding your rewards system, therefore work hard on your recovery not just the withdrawals.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:26 am 
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I
Quote:
consider Bupe withdrawals worse because I went through debilitating pain for months, no matter what anyone says this is the truth and I stick by the truth. I think I had it much worse than most, and maybe I was an unlucky person. But, I do not feed anyone crap I say the truth even if it isn't sunshine and rainbows. Most people will give up on coming off of Bupe, before they will with a full opiate because it goes on and on.


Of course I respect your personal experience. But I don't think it's fair to generalize based on solely
on what's happened to you. YOu've just had a first hand report from OP which differs significantly from
yours. You've also heard from Dr. J. who's an expert in his field. Honestly, there comes a time when a person
has to think, well, maybe I'm wrong when there's credible evidence that in fact he is wrong.



Edit: Just to add, I reread your post and you do seem to be conceding that your experience isn't everyone's.
So I apologize that I got this wrong. It's early in the a.m and I should have read more carefully!


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:43 am 
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Hi Wiichongo, great going this is and never underestimate the potential you have. Once you are sober the rest is past just keep doing the good work and stay away from the bad stuff. It not the same in every case but glad you made it...


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:54 am 
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Hey guys, I just first wanna say thank you for all the responses. I would like to clarify, however, that I was not implying that people should just quit cold turkey. I know that everyone is different and therefore a cold turkey jump could be way too much for some. My point was to make people aware that every horrible experience they read is just going to make things worse. I wanted people to see how minimal my symptoms were in hopes to inspire those who wanna quit, but are afraid.
Another thing I'd like to clarify is that I don't think I'm out of the water yet, the PAWS are a struggle, but I know I can do this.
I appreciate all of the support and information. Although I agree that yes, I am an addict, I was a different kind of addict. I was reckless early on in my life, but during my second and third year of suboxone I knew I was on my way to quitting. I smoked cigarettes for 8 years and weed for 7 years and quit both of those cold turkey a little over a year ago. I've never been interested in most other drugs and I don't drink often for many reasons, albeit, my goal isn't to never have a drink again.
But again, thanks for everyone's responses.
Here is where I left off:
Night 15: Slept pretty good, although I woke up several times, was able to fall back to sleep pretty fast each time.
Mentally: Was a bit depressed but never lost my hope

Day 16: Woke up feeling like I had no motivation again. That went away after about an hour. Felt amazing again, finally had energy again. No symptoms other than sneezing and a half hour period of low energy.
Night 16: Fell asleep almost the second I laid down! Tossed and turned a few times but fell asleep almost immediately each time.
Mentally: Happy and extremely hopeful

Day 17 (as I'm posting this) Unfortunately I woke up at 4:30 and couldn't really fall asleep again. Fortunately it's only an hour before I usually wake up to get ready for work. I feel even better than I did yesterday!

I know I'm not out of the water yet, but even if I have 4 or 5 good days for every 2 or 3 bad days, that is a victory in my book.

But yes, for anyone who wants to quit you should definitely go with a good tapering plan to help keep the withdrawals minimal. Again, I know I got lucky, but I can't be the only one, so keep a clear and open mind and don't expect good or bad. Just let it happen.
Just so everyone knows why I stopped cold turkey, it's because shortly after taking my increased dose (as I said I went from 2mg to 6mg) I would get what is called "pseudo dyspnea" or "fake shortness of breath". I can't really describe it too accurately but basically I felt like I couldn't take a deep breath. It's like halfway into a breath, it would just stop. This led to panic and I even went to the ER. All tests and x-rays came back fine which is how I narrowed it down to the subs. I was afraid to take even a really small dose as my last dose was actually 2mg and not 6mg, and that was the worst I ever felt the breathing thing. It has gone away since I quit. It is also a great reason to discourage me from ever wanting to do an opiate again. I'm way too afraid of feeling that breathing thing. It was horrible.

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So, is there a way where I can find peace while still numbing my pain?


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:09 pm 
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The sleep is tough, I know I kept getting up all through the night. I have to be very active during the day that way I can sleep better. At exactly 3 weeks I have started to sleep better, I am not waking up during the night. I also had restless legs to the extreme, and finally they are gone. Exactly 3 weeks after my jump the restless legs are gone, and my sleep is good. So things will get better soon with sleep. I am looking back at your thread and I can see you tapered down over the years.. so that makes complete sense why your withdrawals were not bad.

Sorry that I missed that. I tapered from 8mg to 0.12mg in 3 months. Like I said that makes complete sense why you didn't have a difficult time. I have to say overall even with all of the pain I have been through I know if I would have tried to taper off of a full opiates I would have been right back on it. Suboxone has made my life stable, and I was able to do great things during that time. It is hard to get past not needing that pill though I will say that. I know only time can rewire my rewards system.

I have a hard time getting motivated in the morning as well, and I know if I do not get out of my bed quickly it will feel 10 times worse when I finally try to get up. Just push yourself I know it is hard, fake it til you make it.. if need be. Music is my stress relief, but I have been trying to avoid stress the best I can until I can get better. But, I am noticing that I feel kind of numb.. idk like unless something is going on I feel blank mentally. I am trying to keep my intelligence going, because I can not afford to have a brain fog.

I know if I feel depressed I force myself out of it, I will pretend like nothing is wrong not to anyone else but to myself. And I will keep myself busy to get away from those feelings. Do not give it life, pretend it isn't there. If you feed into it will only trigger PAWS even more. I am doing everything in my power to stay healthy, mentally and physically so I am not having a very hard time with PAWS.. yet. I may not have many problems, but who knows. I know what is going on, and I have the strength to stop it because I have the knowledge of this process finally.

Omg, did you experience this when trying to sleep? I know when I would try to sleep sometimes I would breath, but I wouldn't inhale the whole way and it felt like I was suffocating.. weird, I thought that was only me. It was almost like my brain was not signaling my lungs to breath fully it was only half way.. idk its weird. But, I do not know if that was even the Bupe though. I am not one to blame something unless I have tried to find a diagnosis in every aspect. So who knows, but great job and keep up the good work just keep working on the PAWS and try your best to over power it.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:35 am 
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Here is something that will make you laugh.. which helps PAWS that's for sure.

I am not sure if we are aloud to post funny videos, but this is one of the few things that have made me laugh hard. Now, most of us have felt the same way at the DMV but of course we keep those feelings to ourselves haha.. It reminds me of when I was a teenager trying to get my drivers license. It is so funny.

Here is the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvodVyUGuM4


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 11:39 am 
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subtaperingnow wrote:
Here is something that will make you laugh.. which helps PAWS that's for sure.

I am not sure if we are aloud to post funny videos, but this is one of the few things that have made me laugh hard. Now, most of us have felt the same way at the DMV but of course we keep those feelings to ourselves haha.. It reminds me of when I was a teenager trying to get my drivers license. It is so funny.

Here is the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvodVyUGuM4



Thanks for the laugh. That was a good video!
Similarly to you, music is my go to for anything and everything and it has helped me on my darkest days with the depression. I sing my heart out and feel so much better. I too have to keep busy otherwise I think too much and give myself anxiety or make myself more depressed.

I do have a question for you or for anyone else who's gone through withdrawals. Yesterday started off as a good day, but while I was at work I noticed a fit of low energy coming on. Usually it lasts an hour and I fight through it. Well, this time it was different. Started around 2:00 and by 2:45 I not only felt like I was 48382929lbs, extremely fatigued, and lethargic, but my heart would start racing any time I got up or walked outside. At my job I mostly sit around but have to constantly get up and walk to help customers. By 3:15 I legitimately thought I was going to pass out so I had to go home. I got home and slept for 40 minutes and woke up feeling a little bit better. Went to talk to my therapist and felt fine for the hour, and after I felt fine too. Felt fine when I went to sleep. Woke up today feeling pretty good but after an hour or so it started again. Now, it's not as bad today for sure, but it started earlier than it did yesterday, and I'm also sitting at home and skipped work. I know fatigue and lethargic are common during PAWS but is the increased heart rate common as well? At rest my heart rate is about 85bpm which is about normal for me, but even something so little as getting up, it'll jump up to 118bpm and then go back down once I sit down.

The only thing I've done differently is on Tuesday I started taking more of my Klonopin because I was advised to do so. The reason is because about a year ago I was taking 3mg a day. I got myself down to about .5mg a day. My father was concerned that I was maybe having withdrawals from that because I didn't really taper, it was more of a jump from 3mg to 1mg to .5mg over the course of 8 months maybe. I've had withdrawals from the klonopin so I know what they're like. Nothing has made me think I'm having any withdrawals from it, but to make my dad happy I increased to a consistent dose starting on Tuesday. I went from taking .375mg a day to a little less than 1mg. Is it possible that the increase in a drug that makes people tired plus the fatigue from the PAWS could cause me to get this fatigued where my heart races with little movement? Or is this just normal during PAWS?

Like I said, Tuesday was the first day I increased it and the next day (yesterday) is when I first experienced the fatigue with heart racing. I took the increased amount yesterday, and here I am today with the same thing.

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 6:41 pm 
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I did the same thing, when I couldn't sleep or was having RLS bad I would sing as loud as I could haha.. I really did feel better. I had a tough time sleeping last night so I think I spoke too soon. Not really RLS, but I was moving around a lot I guess it was RLS but nothing bad. I hate how things start looking up, only for you to fall back down again. Oh well, I am so used to it that it doesn't even phase me anymore. I guess going through a rough time is normal for me at this point.. how sad.

And again overall I feel great, this is the most normal I have felt in about 8 years, before I ever started on opiates. So, you will start feeling better probably within the next week or two. I know when I stop moving I feel like crap.. my hands and feet start sweating it is gross. So, I believe your job doesn't help you any. Even if you are moving here and there, but overall if you are sitting most of the day you will definitely feel the fatigue.

I do not really notice my heart racing but I do not notice something unless it is extreme. I do drink coffee through the day, but still I do not feel like my heart is racing. I experienced that during tapering. It may take you longer, because you did jump at a dose that I consider high for a jump. I do not think the benzo is good idea to keep taking. I am not sure how long you have been taking it, but that could be the result of your problems. My advice is to taper off of it asap. The faster you get off of it the less you have to worry about if you will have withdrawals from it.

I have never been a benzo fan I have only taken it when I would do other drugs (in active addiction) to calm myself down I will not say what drugs I did, but I have heard the withdrawals from benzos can be tough. And benzos help calm a person down, so in my opinion it seems to be the cause plus add the Bupe withdrawals it explains why your having a difficult time. Feeling run down is normal for Bupe withdrawals, but would think you would be seeing more improvements by now..

Idk though, I am not a doctor so I can not really say, but I do not think the benzo is good idea at this point. Especially, if you have been taking it for more than a week.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 8:49 pm 
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Appreciate the response. I hope your RLS gets better really soon! Mine wasn't too bad. Even at its worst, I was still able to fall asleep.

Like you, I do feel great. I am 22 years old and have been doing opiates since about 14. So if you wanna be really technical, this is the first time I've been totally sober in 8 years. Apart from the fatigue which is kicking my butt a bit, I do feel amazing. My mind is clear, my memory is back to being good, I smell things with such clarity, even things I feel with my hands just feel so different. The best thing about it in my opinion though is the bursts of energy I get. It's been many years since I rememeber waking up extremely energetic and motivated to get things done. It's such a great feeling.

As far as the klonopin goes, I definitely do plan on tapering off of it as soon as possible. However, I don't think it would be a good idea for me to do so until most of, if not all of the PAWS go away. I just don't wanna add more discomfort or more withdrawals to this. I am very knowledgeable when it comes to benzos so I know what I am doing. I went through 3-4 days of severe benzo withdrawal a couple years ago and those 3-4 days were a thousand times worse than these 18 days of suboxone withdrawal. I have been on klonopin for about 4 years due to my anxiety disorders (derealization/depersonalization).

So I did a lot of research and I think I found the issue. On the first day of my detox I started taking St John's Wort. 300mg capsules 3 times a day. I noticed a couple days into the withdrawals I was extremely bloated. No matter how much I ate I would feel enormous after. This led to extreme discomfort and led me to believe that breathing issue was still going on. It would also give me anxiety. But I noticed when I took gas-x and a little klonopin and burped it would help a lot. Anyway, I read that St John's Wort can cause a lot of gastro problems including IBS symptoms, diarrhea, cramps, gas, and of course bloating! I only found this out today. I took 900mg for about two weeks straight. On the 15th day I forgot to take all 3 and only took 1. On the 16th, yesterday, and today I forgot to take any. Yesterday and today I had the severe fatigue but the bloating wasn't nearly as bad. Evidently people do go through withdrawals when they suddenly stop the St John's Wort and one of the most common symptoms is (you guessed it) fatigue and dizziness. So I think it's been causing my bloating for the past two weeks and then I stopped taking it and the bloating went away, but the fatigue sky rocketed.

So the good news is I think I figured out my problem and now I'm gonna properly ween off of the St John's Wort. So the fatigue should be gone or not nearly as bad when I wake up tomorrow morning. Once the fatigue goes away this will be so much easier!

Keep up the good work, buddy. I'm glad you feel the best you've felt in 8 years. That's a long time. You have a good attitude and I'm excited to finally gain back that appreciation for quality of life!

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 12:54 pm 
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Oh ok, I thought you were taking the benzo for the Bupe withdrawals. Well, if you are on it for a medical reason then that wouldn't be the cause. Especially, if you have been on it for years. Unless you have been experiencing this other than during the Bupe withdrawals. If not, then I would think the st john's wort may be the cause. I remember trying it, and I just felt tired when I took it. I have tried so many different supplements, and some just made me feel worse.

St john's wort was one of them, and the only one that didn't cause me to feel very tired was DLPA. I had no problems last night with sleep, so hopefully that was only a one night thing. I am sleeping pretty well surprisingly. I didn't think I would heal fast, because of everything I went through during tapering. So, it is great to finally be doing good. 3 weeks is when I saw major improvements with my sleep.

And thank you, you have a great attitude as well. Things will only get better, even if it is small improvements. :D :D


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 7:13 pm 
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subtaperingnow wrote:
Oh ok, I thought you were taking the benzo for the Bupe withdrawals. Well, if you are on it for a medical reason then that wouldn't be the cause. Especially, if you have been on it for years. Unless you have been experiencing this other than during the Bupe withdrawals. If not, then I would think the st john's wort may be the cause. I remember trying it, and I just felt tired when I took it. I have tried so many different supplements, and some just made me feel worse.

St john's wort was one of them, and the only one that didn't cause me to feel very tired was DLPA. I had no problems last night with sleep, so hopefully that was only a one night thing. I am sleeping pretty well surprisingly. I didn't think I would heal fast, because of everything I went through during tapering. So, it is great to finally be doing good. 3 weeks is when I saw major improvements with my sleep.

And thank you, you have a great attitude as well. Things will only get better, even if it is small improvements. :D :D



I really appreciate you responding to me still. I feel like I am going through this with someone else and that is refreshing. My sleep has been good for the most part. I wake up a few times each night but I can usually fall back to sleep pretty quickly. What I don't like about the sleep is sometimes when I wake up I almost feel like I'm either still dreaming, or maybe experiencing some minor sleep paralysis. The reason I say that is because I wake up and feel like I'm being ripped out of my bed and my thoughts are different depending on how I am laying while that is happening. It's very strange. But regardless, I know it'll get better.

As for my klonopin, yeah I have been taking it for years so I thought maybe it wasn't the issue. Like I said, I increased the dose recently and was wondering if it was making me more tired and adding to the fatigue.

As far as the St John's Wort though, last night I took just one capsule for the hell of it to see if I felt strange or anything. Aaaaand what do you know? About an hour after taking it, the fatigue subsided a bit, and I felt very bloated again! This morning I woke up and my stomach was very upset and I won't go into more details (lol) but I can tell that the St John's Wort definitely has been messing with me all along. Once it is completely out of my system which should be in an hour or so, I should see improvements again. Tomorrow I plan on not taking it to see if I get the fatigue bad again, that way I can 100% determine that it is the cause of my PAWS misery.

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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 7:13 am 
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thanks for sharing your story. its good to know others experiences when it comes time to taper or quit.

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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 11:58 am 
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SisterMorphine wrote:
thanks for sharing your story. its good to know others experiences when it comes time to taper or quit.


Thanks for the reply. I just want people to know that reading a bunch of bad experiences is only going to make them think the process will be much worse than it actually is. I read so many horror stories on my first day and I was certain that I was gonna get hit late with the peak withdrawals, but it never happened. I am now officially 3 weeks clean. 3 weeks. I can barely believe it. I haven't been sober for more than a day in YEARS.

Anyway, for anyone wondering I am still doing good. The PAWS are still a struggle but I am slowly beating them. My sleep got a little better. I am just trying to fight the low energy and low motivation. I know that because I made a big jump that these symptoms will probably linger for longer than most people, but I think it's so worth it. Even if that means another month of low energy. Because I know that my energy will come back and with a vengeance!

So the only major issue I've been having recently is sensitivity to light/slightly double vision. From things I have read, evidently Saint John's Wort can cause both of those things. I am hoping that is the cause of this because when it happens, it almost makes me feel as though I am light headed. I want to stop taking the Saint John's Wort but the withdrawals were actually kicking my butt! I was taking 900mg a day and then for one or two days I only took 300mg. Yesterday I went about 36 hours before I started feeling chilly, fatigued, and very emotional from the SJW withdrawals. Now, I know that these are also symptoms of sub withdrawals, but the fact that when I took 150mg, they went away, tells me it is definitely the SJW.

It's almost funny to me that I prepared for the depression of the sub withdrawals by taking SJW, and now I am going to have to taper from the SJW to avoid withdrawals from that.

So for anyone wondering if SJW can cause negative side effects, I assure you it can. Here is what it has done to me thus far:
- Bad bloating
- Diarrhea
- Upset stomach/cramps
- Blurry vision/double vision
- Sensitivity to light
- Withdrawals including chills, fatigue, and becoming extremely emotional. There were things that made me cry yesterday which were so ridiculous.

I hope anyone who wants to quit subs and wants to use something to keep a positive mood at least reads what SJW did to me. Hopefully it will discourage them from wanting to use it, and instead find an alternative.

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 7:52 pm 
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I do think the st. john's wort is the cause for the most part. But, I do have to say that some of these are Bupe withdrawals. I think the st. john's wort probably made them worse though. I have had sensitivity to light, and this can be from a lack of neurotransmitters which happens when you withdrawal from opiates. And I also have blue eyes, and blue eyes are sensitive to light unfortunately.

Some supplements can cause major side effects, and who knows what they even put in some because most are not even approved by the FDA. Very few have I found to actually help without the side effects. I was having a little trouble with lack of energy, and motivation the past couple days. Therefore, I started taking L-tyrosine, and it has helped me so far. I only take a small amount though 200mg because it can make you hyperactive if you take too much or are sensitive to medications. But, 200mg was perfect for me. I have only been taking it for a couple of days though.

Keep up the good work, it is worth it! :D


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 8:49 pm 
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Yeah it is very difficult sometimes to decipher what is bupe WD and what isn't. The good news is that all of the negative things I am feeling, I wasn't when I was taking subs still. Which can only mean it is from the WD's or the SJW. I do think the SJW is doing some damage though.

Sensitivity to light is normal for sub withdrawals? I read that because opiates make your pupils smaller, when you stop taking them and your pupils dilate it can cause sensitivity to light. Which makes total sense to me. It's just sometimes the sensitivity can be really intense and it almost makes me feel light headed. Oh well.

I know in a couple of weeks I will feel amazing so I am very excited. 22 days clean!

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 11:48 pm 
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Yes, the depletion of neurotransmitters during withdrawal can cause sensitivity to light. Actually, when I am out in the sun I will try my best to get used to the light, but I can not so I will wear sunglasses. And I remember there were times where too much light would make me feel sick, but that was during the worst part of withdrawals.

It does get a little better it did for me, but I also have light colored eyes so I expect the sensitivity to an extent. And yea I have heard some bad things about the st. john's wort only after I told someone about how it made me feel. It just made me feel really weird I didn't like it. And it is very difficult to know what is the Bupe withdrawals, I agree with that.

I had to dig deep to figure that out during my acute withdrawals. I share my story on here, and I did not want to give information unless I knew for a fact where the problems were coming from. There are supplements that will help you without the bad side effects. Like I said L-tyrosine is one of them. You want a supplement that will help your body produce neurotransmitters.

I think you are doing great when I think about the dose you jumped off of. Honestly, you got very very.. lucky. So, if you look at it in this aspect you are doing great overall for the dose you jumped off of.


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