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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:56 pm 
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hello everyone and thank you for taking the time to read this. i will make this very short and simple...been on subs for almost a year, started at 8mg and stopped recently around 2-3mgs. This isn't my 1st go around so i knew what to expect but i didn't remember it being this bad last time. I went and bought all the otc meds but none of that stuff helped at all. The first 4days were miserable but i could tolerate it enough to stay strong. On my 5th day I couldnt take the feeling anymore. All the stomach pain, sweats, etc. is very mild and tolerable compared to full opiates but the restless legs and this feeling that i have to stretch and move my body constantly is UNBEARABLE. anyway, on day 5 i decided to get some oxycodone to help me through this. Now I know what your thinking...relapse! But I am and have been in the mindstate for a very long of being pill free. I have no intentions on abusing these to catch a buzz just take minimum anounts to take away that miserable feeling. Anyway, I have searched and searched and can't find an answer to if the oxycodone is just stretching out my w/ds. I am on my 8th day today without any sub and still can't sleep much or get that feeling out of me. I dont want to continue taking these oxys too long to where my body feels like it needs those but does anyone know if 5-7 days of small amounts will be ok as far as not prolonging the sub w/ds. please dont feed me answers like....that isnt smart, bad decision, blah blah...i know it isnt smart, very risky, but i have been doing great as far as not wanting to catch a buzz. I just want to be pill free off everything so bad i can't stand it....PLEASE HELP!!!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:22 pm 
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Ok, I'll just answer your question with no further commentary.

An opiate is an opiate is an opiate. When one occupies the receptors in your brain, it doesn't distinguish between them (suboxone, heroin, oxy, etc). So in a way, yes, you are prolonging your withdrawals - IF you are taking the same amount. If you are using lesser amounts and still withdrawing then you're using oxy to continue tapering off. Again, this is just my opinion.

Good luck and I hope you feel better soon.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:35 pm 
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Thank you hatmaker, and thank you for also not judging me. So it sounds like I am just making this misery last even longer. I figured that was the case but when your sick as hell your mind tends to play tricks on you, im sure you have some knowledge of that as well. It tricked me into thinkin I made the right decision but I guess thats not the case. I am just all out of options, I dont know what else to do.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:16 pm 
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But there's nothing wrong with still tapering/weaning! I surely did NOT mean to discourage you in any way. I certainly don't feel that you are in a discouraging situation. It will ease your symptoms and you will feel better. Will you feel uncomfortable for longer? Probably. But will you feel LESS uncomfortable? Yes I'd say you would.

So don't think so much in black and white - there are gray areas. Weigh all the variables and figure out the different pros and cons. One way is not "right" while the other is "wrong". It's what works for YOU. Like with Suboxone - doing a long slow taper works for some, but for others, they can't do that. They do better just jumping and getting it over with.

I hope I'm making sense. I feel like I said something wrong and I feel bad about it.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:28 am 
outofoptions wrote:
hello everyone and thank you for taking the time to read this. i will make this very short and simple...been on subs for almost a year, started at 8mg and stopped recently around 2-3mgs. This isn't my 1st go around so i knew what to expect but i didn't remember it being this bad last time. I went and bought all the otc meds but none of that stuff helped at all. The first 4days were miserable but i could tolerate it enough to stay strong. On my 5th day I couldnt take the feeling anymore. All the stomach pain, sweats, etc. is very mild and tolerable compared to full opiates but the restless legs and this feeling that i have to stretch and move my body constantly is UNBEARABLE. anyway, on day 5 i decided to get some oxycodone to help me through this. Now I know what your thinking...relapse! But I am and have been in the mindstate for a very long of being pill free. I have no intentions on abusing these to catch a buzz just take minimum anounts to take away that miserable feeling. Anyway, I have searched and searched and can't find an answer to if the oxycodone is just stretching out my w/ds. I am on my 8th day today without any sub and still can't sleep much or get that feeling out of me. I dont want to continue taking these oxys too long to where my body feels like it needs those but does anyone know if 5-7 days of small amounts will be ok as far as not prolonging the sub w/ds. please dont feed me answers like....that isnt smart, bad decision, blah blah...i know it isnt smart, very risky, but i have been doing great as far as not wanting to catch a buzz. I just want to be pill free off everything so bad i can't stand it....PLEASE HELP!!!


2-3 mg/day is still quite a bit to jump off of. I am on a slow taper plan. I am on 1.25/day right now and plan to stabilize at 1 mg, and in a couple months decrease to .5/day. I will not completely discontinue Subutex until I am totally comfortable taking .25 every 36-48 hours.

Oxy will not help you much. The half life is simply too short..and because of that, it is very easy to get addicted to.

If you have more Sub, I would take .5-1 mg every 24 hours or so. I would then get down to no less than .5 every 36-48 hours for at least two weeks and jump at that dose.

If you've already been eight days off, you could even try dosing every 48 hours..but I wouldn't screw with the Oxy. It isn't going to help you for more than a couple of hours and it will leave you worse off.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:39 am 
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you need to listen too". hatmaker was rite on the point the first time!! we all know that we are taking chance on the other stuff!!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:37 am 
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Hi outof, I feel for you and I have been where you are. And yes, I used oxys at one point to help come off 2-4 mg Sub. This time around, I got cut off from my Sub abruptly, but instead of going CT I cut up what I had left into 0.5 mg pieces so I could ease the fall. Ultimately I did end up getting a new script, so no I'm hoping to get down to 0.25 mg before going off completely.

Do you have or can you get any Sub? If it is at all possible I would get some 2mg films and cut them I to 0.25 mg pieces. Then when you really need to get out of the WD or you have something critical to attend to, you can take a tiny dose of Sub rather than oxy. The reason I say this is because as you continue withdrawing your tolerance is dropping. At some point you are going to take that oxy and it's going to make you feel good. That's where the danger is. Even though you have strong resolve, once you feel that feeling all bets are off.

One thing you need to know is that those small doses of Sub take a while to work, unlike the oxy that gives you pretty quick relief. So if you have an important business meeting at 9:00 take the Sub about 7:00 and give it time. Don't give up and think it's not working and take more.
I wish you all the best, and however you decide to proceed keep posting and we will be here to support you .
Lilly


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:59 am 
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I'm not judging you because I been in ur position hundreds of times. Only I had no internet to ask people for answers. So will keep it simple.

Quote:
nd move my body constantly is UNBEARABLE.


Opiate detox doesn't kill you, so it's not unbearable. You can bear through this!

Every time you take an Oxycontin, you are restarting your detox. Back to day 0. You can't use full agonists to help detox. Even low doses will pretty much restart ur detox. Things can get a bit more complicated, but in my years of using I realised that this is pretty much the way it goes.

So u got these options:

- Keep taking oxy until you have an oxy habit, then eventually end up back on subox if ur lucky.
- Stop taking oxy and push through the detox.
- Go back on Subox, regroup, screw the head back on straight and try to stop subox later with more of a plan, and knowing what to expect.. Next time use the assistance of doctors and detoxes instead of dealers / oxys to get through it.

Don't wanna be rude. I just been in ur position so many times. I'm not being judgemental either. I recently came out of a relapse myself.

I don't think you've relapsed, but what decision u make will ultimately tell.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:41 pm 
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@ hatmaker....You didn't say anything bad, and i took no offense to anything you said so no worries on that. I stopped my subutex 9 days ago and don't plan on ever gettin back on it, the w/d's are just too long and I am 1 of those ppl that coulnt taper below around 2mgs. I took a very risky move using the oxycodone to help ease my w/d from the subutex and even though oxy was my doc i didn't misuse it at all, i only took small amounts and now that i am out of those im just going to hit these sub w/d's head on and get it over with,i shouldnt have too many rough days ahead, i will keep you updated as i go along with my process, i just want to be clean soooo bad that i can't stand myself, even though i had my doc i didnt even think about abusing it thats how bad i want this sobriety.

@ Ironic....I slowly tapered from 8mg to 2mg but just couldnt get below that so i decided to just take the jump, i am never going back to subs so there will not be anymore tapering for me. I did use oxy for the last few days to help with my w/ds but u were right, very short half life basically a waste of money and a very dangerous move as im flirting with disaster. Tomorrow im back to cold turkey though so I will keep u updated.

@ Lily...No i don't have any subs left and I could probably find them on the street or go back to my dr. but honestly i don't even want to. I am so tired of relying on a pill to control my day. I took oxy the last few days and tomorrow will ct again until i am over this. If i keep on with the oxy or the subs i will never quit i know myself too well, but thanks for the advice and i will keep u updated.

@ Tearjerker...I hope you are not right on going back to day 0...i did take pretty small doses of oxy for the last few days but I am not going to continue that. I will not be doing anything from here on out. If you don't mind me asking, is it your opinion that you start the w/d all over at day 0 or is that an actual fact. My sub dr. that i went to years back told me that full opiates will knock the sub off your receptors and actually speed up the w/d. which was basically the reason i did them the last few days. I dont know about starting back at day 0 but i think i may have just stretched them out. But anyway i will keep you updated and its back to feeling miserable tomorrow, gotta man up and get it done though i want my life back and no pill is going to keep me from that.

Thank you everyone and if you have anymore info on this please keep the comments coming, i will keep everyone updated on my progress.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:43 pm 
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@ Lily....i forgot to ask you, when you say you used oxy to help you come off subs. what was the outcome did it help you or start you over again??


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:12 pm 
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What is a "small amount of Oxy?" Because to me a "small" amount is like 15 mg.Please tough this out without Oxy,you are putting yourself on a slippery slope.I would feel like I was at day 1 because Oxy is my doc and if i ingested it for one reason or the other I would consider it a relapse.I know for a fact I couldnt even take a small amount,it would only escalate from there.I would be miserable and take enough to get high "just this once" then get back on the sub to get off.Wouldnt take much to trigger me,hope you are not the same.Cold turkey is the way to go.Good luck!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:47 am 
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Hi, outofoptions. How are you feeling?

I do think the Oxy will just prolong the w/d.

A lot of people say they cannot get below 2 mg or 1 mg. Some decide to just stop Sub altogether at that point and then they feel pretty crappy. The thing is that if you cannot get below 2 mg without feeling bad, you are going to certainly feel bad going from 2 to nothing. I know you want to bite the bullet and just be done now. You can do that! There are people on here who jump from crazy amounts, like 8 mg! If it gets too rough on you, I promise you that it is possible to taper low enough on Sub to where you don't feel too bad stopping. It just takes a while. :D

Good luck. Please keep updating!

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:12 pm 
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I'm sorry to say this but if your Sub doctor told you that he is an ass. Sub has a higher affinity for the opiate receptors than any of the full agonists. That's why Sub is used in addicts to block the effects of opiates. Conversely, if you are on full agonists and take Sub, the Sub will knock the agonists off your receptors in a big way.

In resonse to your question, (and I'm not recommending this to ANYONE!), I tapered from about 45 mg to 7.5mg of oxy over about a 10 day period starting on day one off of 2 mg. I pretty much avoided any serous physical WD's but when the oxy ran out I had an emotional break down of epic proportions. Epic. I completely could not function, and having two kids to take care of I ended up getting back on Sub and waited until I was more ready and could taper lower.

I don't personally believe that the oxy puts you back at day one (unless you were taking around 60 mg/ day). But I do believe that there is no easy way out of this. You WILL feel some physical or mental pain. It sounds like your resove is strong, you don't want to go back and taper and you're out of oxy. So all you can do is keep moving forward. Take whatever comfort meds you have like immodium, Clonidine and maybe a sleep aid. Try to eat and rest as best you can, and try ot get some exercise or at least get out in the sun. When it gets unbearable get into the bathtub preferably with Epsom salts, which are widely reported to help WD, but if you don't have any just the hot water helps. If you have a partner, skin on skin contact can be helpful.
It's weird, one minute you feel like you can't stand it then a short time later you might even forget about it for a bit. I haven't gone all the way yet myself, I've been taking 0.25 mg doses so I have to bite the bullet and face this thing myself soon, too. We can do it. There are a lot of folks here who have done it. They may not have liked it, but they got through it. I wish you the best,
Lilly


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:52 pm 
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When I quit Suboxone, I made it 18 hours or so and remembered I had an OLD bottle of Lorcet Plus (hydrocodone 7.5mg) upstairs. I believe there were 24 left in the bottle. I took 2 Lorcet at 18 hours and they knocked the wd down nicely. I decided I would take 1 pill every 4 hours or so just to "help" with the Suboxone wd. I took the rest of the pills in the bottle over the next several days and it did help. The problem is, Suboxone wd is so long lived and peaks so late that I wasted my tabs on what would have been the easier days, by the time the hard days hit, I was out of Lorcet and had to claw through the wd on my own.

Looking back, I wouldn't use Lorcet again like that. It just wasn't worth it, to me. I wouldn't use them, period. What I would do is get some Clonidine ASAP. Clonidine makes a big difference in severity of wd, it's non-addicitve and it won't set you back to day zero OR prolong your wd.

As far as your Oxy use setting you back to day zero, I don't buy that for a minute. You would have to be taking enough Oxy to get stoned out of your mind to set you back to day zero, IMO. But, I think you may be prolonging your wd by using them.....it's hard to say.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:28 pm 
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I also do NOT think taking the oxy set you back to zero. Just wanted to throw my opinion on that as well. Again, like I said earlier, if you were taking less than the amount of the sub you were taking, then you were still dropping the amount of opiates you were taking so you were basically still tapering. I don't believe it set you back one bit. Hang tough, my friend! Try to put this behind you and move on from here.

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 Post subject: Stay Safe...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:12 pm 
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I'm not going to put words in tearjerkers post, but, to keep all the withdrawels away and feel "normal" it wont be long until your back in the squirrel cage, it will just naturally happen.... oxy will make you feel so much better than Suboxone.. Read the last post Dr. J put on his talk zone... if a little oxy makes you feel better, so be it, but DONT stop taking your Suboxone, Suboxone will keep almost all the euphoria away... Sorry to say this but using oxy alone will most likely set you back, as an addict I know it would set me back... DONT STOP TAKING YOUR SUBOXONE FOR NOW, BE SAFE !!!!!

PS: I know Dr J's post is about when people have real pain while on Suboxone


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:04 pm 
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Well everyone I used the oxy for a few days, stayed strong, didnt abuse them at all and didnt go back for more when i was out!!! I am very very proud of myself because oxy was my doc by far!!! The next 2 days after taking them I still felt horrible though and I believe that it did NOT set me back but i wouldnt say it helped much either. I think i may have taken to much per day though. I was takin a 15mg ir every 8hrs or so. The next 2 days I didnt sleep 1 minute through the night, the restless legs were terrible. I am just thankful that I didn't relapse on the oxy though, I do not recommend anyone trying what I did just because if you don't have enough oxys to ween yourself completely off of them I dont think it does much good. Now to fill everyone in on my new plan ;)....As I said when the oxys were finished I went 2 days cold turkey. I had used up all my vacation days at work and had to return back, i knew i couldn't go the way i felt so I picked up some methadone 10mgs. I started at 50mgs the first 2 days, then 30mgs, and now i am on 10mgs for the next 2 days then I am going to attempt to stay clean! I know all this doesnt sound good and probably sounds as if i relapsed but like i said, i will be staying in touch with everyone and letting you know my progress....and btw just to let everyone know, the reason I had to stop taking my subs at 2mg is because my gf is the one who was gettin the subs from the dr. but she is due to have our baby girl nov.11 and i didnt want her to be born in w/d so we have decided to return to the sub dr. after the baby is born.


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