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 Post subject: Valium + Suboxone ?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:42 am 
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I'm currently on 24mg of Suboxone per day.

My sleep pattern is WAY off!!
I try to force myself to sleep and it won't happen until 7 or 8 in the MORNING! I then sleep until 4 or 5 PM!

My Brain just will not shut the f$$# up.

I told my Doctor that I had like 90 tabs of Valium for severe social anxiety and sometimes to sleep. (I NEVER abused benzo's; never saw why people did!)(I'm an opiate kind of guy)

I was told by my Sub doctor that low dosing of Valium with Suboxone is "Okay".
She also told me that like 70% to 80% of the people that died using Benzo's and Suboxone together were shooting up LARGE doses of Benzo's causing them to go into repertory arrest.

I wanted to know if anyone else is using low doses of Benzo's (Valium, Ativan) while on a Suboxone treatment before I touch them.
If so... what's your,
-Suboxone Dose
-Valium Dose

I'm talking about one 5mg tab before bed.

.


Last edited by EMT-Steven on Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:32 pm 
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Anyone?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:33 am 
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First, is it working? Is the Valium helping you sleep? I know what you mean, all a benzo ever did for me was knock me out, I do NOT see the enjoyment of not being able to stay awake (when you want to FEEL something high).

Only experience I have, is my Dr. will not prescrible Sub and Benzo at the same time, but has stated its his preference, he would rather not take an unnecessary risk when there were "other" ways out there of accomplishing similar results.

Hope you get more responses... this board needs to pick up a bit! There is so much to talk about!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:35 am 
How's it going EMT? Regarding your question about benzos - My Sub doc has told me the same thing - no problem with an occasional dose of benzo with Suboxone. I am like you - never abused benzos, don't see the fun. They just put me to sleep. Which obviously is what you're looking for. Hope it works. We all need sleep! Just be careful - if you try the valium and notice any of those "feel-good" things going on, you need to be self-aware enough to flush the rest of them. Probably won't happen since benzos never affected you that way before!
Good luck!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:49 am 
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There is a danger for other reasons, such as the dependency factor.Benzo's are very difficult to withdraw from and are very addictive themselves.Most doctors that prescribe Suboxone would use less risky drugs to help with your personal issues(sleep,anxiety).
I would be very careful if you plan on continuing use of the valium.If you are not, ask your doctor about prescribing trazadone to help with sleep issues.It is a non addictive anti depressant that is used with Suboxone often to help people sleep.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:56 pm 
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shelwoy wrote:
There is a danger for other reasons, such as the dependency factor.Benzo's are very difficult to withdraw from and are very addictive themselves.Most doctors that prescribe Suboxone would use less risky drugs to help with personal issues(sleep,anxiety).
I would be very careful if you plan on continuing use of the valium.If you are not, ask your doctor about prescribing trazadone to help with sleep issues.It is a non addictive anti depressant that is used with Suboxone often to help people sleep.


Did you even read my entire post??
I DO NOT like benzo's! I've been taking them off and on for a couple years; I would go well over a month without using them even though I have some in my night stand. I have absolutely NO desire to take them. I'm not addicted to or will ever be addicted to Benzo's!!! Like I said, I'm a opiate kind of guy.

Last night... or shall I say this morning around 6AM after 7 hours of trying to fall asleep I took 1/2 of a 5mg tab. I fell asleep approximately 40 minutes later!
Guess what.... I'm still alive.
As for tonight... I'll try to go to sleep without it and if I need it I'll reduce it to a 1/4 of a tab because I felt drowsy for about 15 minutes after I woke up.

1/4 of 5mg is approximately 1.2mg's. That's a VERY VERY low dose of Valium!!

About the Trazadone... I'm one of those people that gets suicidal if they take anti-depressants. (Remember the commercials... "Some people may become suicidal while taking this medication")
In high school I was prescribed anti-depressants for depression and it made things a whole hell of lot worse!!!
I will NEVER EVER touch those things again!!!
As soon as I stopped taking them I felt soooo much better!
I LOVE life and I HATED what those things did to me!!!!!

So it seems to me... YOUR idea for me to "get some sleep" could prove to be FAR MORE DEADLY then what I was asking.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:47 am 
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The deaths occurred in people who lacked tolerance to opiates, benzos, or both. If you are tolerant to bupe, I don't think your risk with a benzo is significantly greater than anyone else's. That 90 mg of valium IS a huge dose, as you know-- I would expect a person who took that amount to have sleep problems for months and months after detoxing. The main problem with benzos for sleep is the tolerance and rebound insomnia-- that is what destroyed the great sleepers of the 80's like Restoril and Halcion.

Check out my 'other' blog from my psych practice: http://patienttimes.fdlpsychiatry.com . My last post was '12 things I hate about benzos'. The main point is that the proper treatment for anxiety disorders is always an SSRI or SNRI, and benzos are used rarely as a top-off in emergencies, or for short-term stress (like a few weeks). They are prescribed by family practice docs, and psychiatrists spend all the time cleaning up the messes of trying to get people to live without them!

I'd consider very low-dose seroquel; the metabolic effects at the low doses are not a big problem, and they tend to work when other things fail.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:41 am 
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suboxdoc wrote:
The deaths occurred in people who lacked tolerance to opiates, benzos, or both. If you are tolerant to bupe, I don't think your risk with a benzo is significantly greater than anyone else's. That 90 mg of valium IS a huge dose, as you know-- I would expect a person who took that amount to have sleep problems for months and months after detoxing. The main problem with benzos for sleep is the tolerance and rebound insomnia-- that is what destroyed the great sleepers of the 80's like Restoril and Halcion.

Check out my 'other' blog from my psych practice: http://patienttimes.fdlpsychiatry.com . My last post was '12 things I hate about benzos'. The main point is that the proper treatment for anxiety disorders is always an SSRI or SNRI, and benzos are used rarely as a top-off in emergencies, or for short-term stress (like a few weeks). They are prescribed by family practice docs, and psychiatrists spend all the time cleaning up the messes of trying to get people to live without them!

I'd consider very low-dose seroquel; the metabolic effects at the low doses are not a big problem, and they tend to work when other things fail.


I'm sorry Doc but where did you come up with 90mg's of Valium? That's a crazy amount that would kill just about anyone not used to it!!

I said I had 90 TABS of 5mg Valium. Even 5mg's it too much for me, If I need to take some I always break them into 1/2's and 1/4's.

I understand you suggesting Seroquel (used for bipolar disorder) for the metabolic effects and because of the negative effect that antidepressants have on me. One of the signs of being bipolar is turning suicidal after taking antidepressants.
And mostly because of fear I may become dependent on it. I've had valium for quite some time; and before I hit rock bottom and was sick and tired of being sick and tired, I tried to get high with them. I HATED the effects! I don't like being drowsy! I don't even drink because of the same exact reason!

I was seen by a psychoneuroendocrinologist for quite sometime due to my sever anxiety attacks and I was tested... I only exhibited one of the many many symptoms of bipolar (racing thoughts when trying to sleep), there-for he chose not to start me on any of medications for it. He chose to put me on valium help with my anxiety attacks and to sleep.


EDIT:
Doc, I just read your blog post "Twelve Things I Hate About Benzodiazepines".
I like it a lot! It was quite informative, it made me look inwards to see if the points you were making some how implies to me.
I do believe that I have sever social anxiety, I've had it for many years. It's only been recently that I've diagnosed.
As far as benzo's being the correct medication for me... I don't know. I'm sure there is something else out their that is more effective but I very rarely get in to a position where I need to take the medication because I keep myself from getting into any position that might put me into an attack. I stay home mostly, I don't feel depressed... I enjoy going out.

On a side note...
I actually laughed when you described one of your patients. The one that takes benzo's AND adderall.

Everyone should take a minute and read the Doc's blog.
http://patienttimes.fdlpsychiatry.com/


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:30 pm 
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Just wanted to share real quick, my experience. I'm going into my third week on Sub and my main complaint has been lack of sleep, to lay there in bed and watch the clock for literally hours on end is a nightmare in itself. Previously I've been taking Valium along with my Norco at night to help me sleep, in reality I know the Valium was boosting the effects of my Norco and yes I was sleeping like the dead, for about 15 hours a day, not good.

My doctor prescribed the Seroquel at a very low dose to help me sleep and slowly but surely it IS helping me get to sleep, it's not perfect yet but I'm working on it. I do not like anti depressants myself and have never done well on them so I was not thrilled when she gave me the Seroquel but I have to admit it's helping me sleep. You might give it a try? Best of luck to all of us.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:24 pm 
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Just wanted to share my experiance with sub and benzo. I've been on sub about 18 months now,currently at 8mg/day. I also take 20mg Prozac for depression,and I'm on 1mg Clonopin for my anxiety/panic attacks. This whole regimen has been prescribed thru my sub doc. Like yourself,I have never seen what the big deal is with benzos! I was addicted to opiates and eventually heroin. I take all my meds as prescibed. It all works great FOR ME. Anyone who has never had a panic attack wouldn't underestand the feeling. I know for me it is HELL! Hope you find what you're looking fore!


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 Post subject: emt
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:45 pm 
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my doctor rx's Ativan - 2 mgs to me, twice per day.

he rx's ativan VERY often, h says that while benzo's can cause problems with suboxone, ativan is one of the weaker ones... at least thats what he says.

i have no idea, bc like you I've never had a prob with benzos. i took xanax one time, fell asleep 5 min later, and never touched a benzo again - until i was rx'd 2mg ativan 2x daily with sub.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:31 pm 
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Quote:
Did you even read my entire post??
I DO NOT like benzo's! I've been taking them off and on for a couple years; I would go well over a month without using them even though I have some in my night stand. I have absolutely NO desire to take them. I'm not addicted to or will ever be addicted to Benzo's!!! Like I said, I'm a opiate kind of guy.


Yes I read your entire post, I just responded in a general sense.I do not know your entire drug history and I was just trying to offer some information.
Same with mentioning Trazodone. I would not have known you had problems with antidepressants.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:56 am 
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Well, today I called my Sub Doctor and she said that my 1/2 to 1/4 of a 5mg before bed is absolutely fine! She even said a whole 5mg is okay... but I will stay with 1/4 to 1/2 where I don't feel anything... anymore then that and I feel like shit. (From before I started suboxone)


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