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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:36 am 
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This sounds pretty stupid, but hear me out. One of my old recovery / using buddies recently did exactly this. He stopped taking Suboxone then used IV heroin for 1 week. He then stopped taking the heroin and detoxed. The withdrawals only lasted a week, what you'd expect from a heroin detox anyway. It was as if using heroin cut the buprenorphine withdrawal in half.

Now it's 3 or 4 weeks later and he hasn't used. Good for him! I really hope he makes it. It's definitely a risky way to go about it, however he wasn't exactly clean all the time while he was on Sub anyway.

What do you guys think? Stupid?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:01 pm 
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I'm no expert, but there are some things that are just common sense. I would HIGHLY suggest, NOT doing that. For more reasons than I could possibly name. First and foremost, heroin is a street drug, unregulated, bought from street drug dealers, of which there is absolutely zero controls on its production. Every time you use heroin, you are playing Russian roulette. Plus mixing a suboxone detox (which will include opiate cravings) with heroin use seems to me like a recipe for disaster. I've heard of some of my "friends" doing dumb things to, and claiming that they "weren't so bad", but that one is pretty close to the top of the list of "things NOT to do".

Seriously, you use Suboxone to get off of heroin, a drug that absolutely wrecks people's lives, rips families apart, and kills people every single day. Why on earth would you go backwards? And being an opiate addict how do you really think you are strong enough to use heroin to ween off of suboxone and not go into a full blown relapse? You could be dead in a week if you do that. Like I said I am no expert, and there are much more informed people in this forum, and honestly I rarely reply to other people's issues but the title of this post just jumped out at me. Use some sense, that is a completely irrational idea.


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 Post subject: makes sense to me
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:27 pm 
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Heroin's half life is only a few hours. So you can drop your dependance on sub very quickly. It does work, you can go from 12mg to 2mg in less than 2 weeks, with out any W/D.
Sorry I'm gonna go back to the o'l days when Temgesic was being used by renagade Dr's to treat opiate addiction.
This is how it went as well as I can recall, valium untill withdrawal sets in, then 0.6 mg bup daily for one week,then 0.2mg for a week,,,then valium or serapax for a month. No repeats for six months and drug counselling.
It was a good way to detox, and there was a massive waiting list for the MMT. A lot of friends who had heroin habits and used that process, gave it away for good and vanished into the woodwork of normalization, ( granted their habits were less than 2 years). My Dr was deregistered, and MMT became what it is today, and the war goes on bla bla bla,,,,


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:41 pm 
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I think the only benefit for him was that his period of using gear reduced the number of days he spent in withdrawal by half. I was a lil bit surprised to hear this. While I used to believe this was achievable, I've heard on this forum a few times that when you're withdrawing you're withdrawing from opiates, so using another opiate doesn't change the withdrawal at all. So when I called him at 7 days post-detox to see how he was going, to hear he was "over it" I was pretty surprised. Hence me bringing it up here.

Now last I heard he'd been clean for a lil while and was exploring long term rehab, or naltrexone. I might drop him a msg and see if he's still kickin ass. Once upon a time, both of us were in and out of rehabs like it was our hobby... and he's had 30-60-90 days clean before. What's great for him about this time was that he did it at home by himself, managed to stay clean, so things are looking great. I'm kinda counting on him to show me that people like us (bipolar / addiction dual diagnosis) can stay clean after Sub.

He said the only residual issue has been temperature regulation stuff, kinda like what many people speak of on this forum after Sub.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:07 pm 
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I've also heard that saying, "an opiate is an opiate is an opiate", but I don't buy it. I clearly remember running out of OxyContin and having to switch back to Hydrocodone and no matter how much Hydrocodone I took, I never felt right.....not until 4 or 5 days later anyway. If an opiate is an opiate is an opiate, I should have been able to get enough hydro's in me to kill the OC wd completely, but I never did.

I also remember reading 2 or 3 stories on here of how people used their old DOC to get off of Suboxone and were successful. Now, did they eventually go back to using, I have no idea, but they seemed successful in getting off Suboxone with their DOC.

When I quit Suboxone, I used Hydrocodone for the first few days, but it probably didn't really do me any good because I only used it for about 3 days. I had no idea Suboxone wd peaked around day 7 - 9.

Anyway, I most certainly do NOT recommend anyone use their DOC to get off Suboxone, it's a slippery slope, no doubt about it and it's too damn easy to end up back in the gutter.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:41 pm 
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Romeo wrote:
. If an opiate is an opiate is an opiate, I should have been able to get enough hydro's in me to kill the OC wd completely, but I never did.





Anyway, I most certainly do NOT recommend anyone use their DOC to get off Suboxone, it's a slippery slope, no doubt about it and it's too damn easy to end up back in the gutter.



Romeo,,, I have experienced, what you wrote there, AS WELL......
After I started eating methadone like they were m&ms,,,,
NOTHING else would work,,,,,, unless I got enough "time off"
I remember being in withdrawl SO BAD,,,, I was just on the bathroom floor, crying....... I kept taking vicodin and percocets,,,,,, they were both the "tens"
I must have taken 30 all together,,,
all it did was make my eyes heavy for 20mins, then it was back to contemplating suicide.......

AND,
I really like the last part I high-lighted there^^^^^
it is definitely a slippery slope,,,

and I guess it would depend on the person, , ,
How bad thier addiction got, what they lost, ETC ETC ETC..........

Me, I'd be SO FREAKING SCARED,,,,,
seriously,,,,,
I've NEVER been able to take ANY opiate "as perscribed"
suboxone, if you want to count it as an opiate,,,,
has been the FIRST....
In a long list..... So without a doubt, for ME,,, it'd just be the "gate opening"
for the monster to come out and play..........

people that ARE ABLE to do it, well congrats to them!!!
I really won't judge ANYONE for their choices,,,,, or the WAY they get off opiates.......

~~~ Good Luck ~~~

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 Post subject: trials
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:45 am 
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If I could legally get a SAO to cover sub w/d duratation, and then get low dose short term sub, 0.4mg 0.3mg 0.2mg over say 8 days, given only when you score X on the cows, I'd go for that.
Really low dose sub [yeah I've abused that too] is not what you'd call full blown W/D.
I haven't touched my sub for 2 days, cause I wanna get that half life down. and I cover it with a SAO, but not enough to get high,,,,for better or worse, I just want out,,,but not via heavy W/D,,, not up for that anymore!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:46 am 
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The only way I would consider doing something like this ... is if I could legitimately use MS-Contin to help taper off buprenorphine. Reason is that taken as prescribed and at the right dose (not chewing them) it's the simplest, most straight forward opioid to get off buprenorphine. Taken as prescribed at the right dose, not snorted chewed or injected, it's difficult to catch a buzz off. I've also taken opioids as prescribed successfully since my addiction. I think it's because I was only a heroin addict. I never associated pills with getting high, and only took Oxy once to no effect. Heroin was my only drug.

I would not use heroin to get off Suboxone. It's playing with fire.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:19 am 
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Hi Tj,

Yes, a true grey area, a double edged sword, for sure..

I have gone through this thought maze a few months ago, this issue of cross tolerance.

The medical evidence based on patients states that opiates of different receptor affinity(ie Mu or kappa or Delta) don't show cross tolerance.

What this means in english, is that a mu only opiate is for all intensive purposes a different drug than a kappa opiate. Yes, it goes against all common sense and assumed knowledge, and 99% of what is accepted via the net).....

If this fact was not true, then bupe would not work getting you off heroin......

That is the single fact that should be used as evidencece.

It is not that simple though, as some mu drugs may change into kappa drugs on digestion, etc.
But I am sure the argument can be made that if one was to taper with heroin off heroin, over the same time period as with using a bupe taper... Then you could say, there is no difference, except will power and slight receptor manipulation of the agonist/antagonist principle, whatever that means.



With that in mind, would I risk doing this,........NO
Because in most cases, it has the prob. of risking old habits, maybe.

Maybe is just too risky for me.
But in my heart, I know that a codeine taper after low dose bupe would work. Say 6 week codeine taper.
This would probably at most, make the 6 hours of sleep per night for the first 2 months, turn in 8 or so.

I would dearly love to be strong enough to use this type of crazy exchange, and test it for ya,.
But.....


Hopespring
Have a look at 'kappa agonist' or delta agonist' or mu agonist, in wiki.


I guess this is why kratom works, and why bupe helps with H etc.
And why codeine helps detox from morphine etc.

Quote:
Ref:
Cross-tolerance implies that subjects tolerant to one opioid will be tolerant to another and is
limited to drugs acting the same receptors. Thus, animals tolerant to mu opioids do not show
cross-tolerance to kappa or delta drugs. Complete cross-tolerance implies identical receptor
mechanisms of action, while incomplete cross-tolerance suggests some differences.Within
the mu opioid family, preclinical studies show both complete and incomplete cross-tolerance
(Fig. 1.3). In mice made tolerant to morphine, codeine shows complete cross-tolerance but a
number of other mu opioids, including methadone and heroin, do not.102 These preclinical studies
are similar to observations made with patients who often show incomplete cross-tolerance,
helping to explain the utility of opioid rotation


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:36 am 
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Actually I forgot to mention,

I looked into finding out what Bupe was, it is a Mu agonist, mainly. Like morphine and fentanyl.
Except bupe will actually stick to receptors stronger than even fentanyl, which is no surprise to me, when i had gallbladder surgery, whilst on 10mg subutex.

It just did not matter how much fentanyl they gave me, nothing worked.....Except guess what worked.
It should be no surprise, if you read my previous post...........

It was a kappa agonist that cured me, and stopped the pain, during and after surgery.
And that kappa agonist was OXYCODONE.

Yes, i realize this is building further weight to the nonsensical fact that not all opiates share cross tolerance,.

but back to my original motivation for this post.
Guess what is also a natural kappa agonist, ?.....
Menthol aka tiger balm, aka horse gel, or bengay .

I can see possibly why RLS are annihilated with a ultra high % menthol gel.
Do a search, and you'll find some guy who swears by menthol, but did not know exactly why.
He was dissed by so many people, but I think I can see the magic behind this type of madness.

Even better to topically apply the menthol, and get it to where you actually need the kappa agonist.
Very clever I thought.

Also then it would make sense that ibogaine, and salvia are kappa agonists, which they are.....

very intersting,,,...

hopesprings


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:49 am 
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I'm pretty sure Suboxone is a mu agonist, but an antagonist at the kappa receptor (I don't know what it does at the delta?)

Like hopesprings is pointing out, I think the fact that certain opiates only activate (or are antagonists) at certain opioid receptors would mean that an opiate is not necessarily an opiate is not an opiate? I'm certainly no medical professional, this is just my non-professional take on things.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:36 pm 
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I tried that method 2 times during the last 6 years, needless to say they made things worse for me. I was feeling the withdrawals of both bup and heroin, and it was lasting weeks, so jumped back on the sub train. I can't figure out how can heroin cut bup withdrawals. Sub withdrawals from what I have been told and read last a very long time so someone would have to take heroin or anything else for several months, then there is the situation that your mind was not clear of opiates so when it does not have any opiates mentally you can feel worse off. So in my opinion and experience it's a very bad idea.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:37 am 
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things i wish i knew sooner

suboxone withdrawals are so so long. why didint i just detox off the pain pills. i have heard of a lot of others who did something similar to this. and there is actually real research showing it cuts the length w/ds down. im not saying go do this. it can be dangerous switching from subs to another opiate. but who really knows seems like all the drs and all the research seems to just be a guessing game. you cant know it till you lived it is what me thinks.


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 Post subject: there's gonna be pain
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:07 am 
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If your on a high dose of sub, and do what I did, use an SAO, initially there is no high, scratching an itch or nodding off, cause the stack up of bup block's it.If your determined to be opiate free and had a Dr on side, I think it could be a good thing, you never get off any opiate scott free, but if I can avoid the fish out of water flipp flapp bullshit and get some sleep durring the first week, by the use of very low dose bup for four or five day's,that would really give me some momentum in my recovery.
I really don't like the sound of a week long build up to full W/D. Time goes as slow as fuck,anyway!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:10 am 
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Stargazer wrote:
I really don't like the sound of a week long build up to full W/D. Time goes as slow as fuck,anyway!


ha i thought it was only me. but the first week felt like a year.


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 Post subject: tick toc tick
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:17 pm 
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Hey Downtime, some interesting points regarding, RLS. Thanks to hopespring for that codiene info too. Gonna have to stock up on tiger balm.
But you know there are good times during the process too, like how sweet music sounds, I kind of like of how color seems to resonate and thing's in nature, bring back good memories, and certain fragrancies, arouse you. But generally your a bloody basket case, hoping for the dust to settle ASAP.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:08 am 
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He's still kickin on. Got on the naltrexone the other day. He gets it cheap too because it's covered for his alcoholism. Double bonus that it works for opioid cravings, and acts as a stronger blocker than Sub.

I know it's still early days, and I think it's fantastic that he's doing great ... but how is it a person can use heroin to get them off Sub and stay clean so far with relatively few cravings and no worries?

I said to him that if he's 6 months clean and not looking back ... I'm taking myself off Sub. Fuck this shit.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:03 pm 
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It does work if you can maintain some self control which is hard for folks like us is the concensus i came to among the people that have used this method or any other SAO to get off sub or reduce there tolerance and use of sub.....thought of trying it myself actually.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:59 pm 
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Suboxone has given me a TON of SPACE to seperate myself from my addiction......

I mean I am in a COMPLETELY different place..... I don't have anyone's phone number even,
from back "then"
I've moved, I'm working at the same job almost two years now, longest EVER to hold the same job.
crazy,, yes I know!!

I think the bottom line is, ALL OF US come from different places,
we all have different addictions, and hit our "bottom" at different places/times.

while some people might be sucessful at this "approach"
Im not so sure I would be. and that's okay, right?
LOL

I know it "sounds" completely insane, but whatever works, is really how I feel.
IF someone can do this, well then, they should write a BOOK in my opinion......
you'd have to "record" all the usage and all that the tapering of both (if any of sub, I mean) and
how things go....
seriously,
imagine how MANY books would sell!!!!
well I think they would anyways, if anything just out of pure curiousity.......

ONLY YOU
know if you could even attempt this,,, approach...........
each one of us knows ourselves and especially our addiction and what 'stage' it's at, even in recovery from it.

that's all I got
merry christmas all

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anyone can give up,
its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:11 pm 
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This guy's decision to get off Sub was a lot different to ours. He was using heroin and Sub ... a LOT. Every 2-3 days at the least, with periods of maybe 3 weeks of not using heroin...

His decision to get off Sub was more of a decision to "get off everything". So we can't really translate it to most people in here. He lumped all opioids together in the same boat.

Also, while he's been clean 30-60 days, he's yet to have any kind of craving. While in many ways that's a good thing, it also means his recovery hasn't really been challenged yet or put to the test. I really hope he does well when the time comes.

Merry xmas.


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