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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:18 am 
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TeeJay wrote:
This guy's decision to get off Sub was a lot different to ours. He was using heroin and Sub ... a LOT. Every 2-3 days at the least, with periods of maybe 3 weeks of not using heroin...

His decision to get off Sub was more of a decision to "get off everything". So we can't really translate it to most people in here. He lumped all opioids together in the same boat.

Also, while he's been clean 30-60 days, he's yet to have any kind of craving. While in many ways that's a good thing, it also means his recovery hasn't really been challenged yet or put to the test. I really hope he does well when the time comes.

Merry xmas.


Hi Guys! This is my first post after the "intro" post.

I thought Sub bound itself so strongly to the receptors that a opioid with less affinity, like Heroin, would make you pretty sick if you are on regular Sub doses. There seems to be a lot of conflicting information on this, I would be curious to hear a real live account. I am definitely not interested in using illegal drugs while on Sub, but I do want to clear up the science around receptor affinity.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:21 am 
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Hey Hipo...

What you're saying is partially true. Buprenorphine has a really strong receptor affinity. It's the strongest I know of actually, even stronger than naltrexone.

Because it binds to receptors so strong, if you take other opioids while bupe is already hogging all your receptors, the other opioid won't have any effect. It won't make you sick, nor will it make you stoned. It'll just give u nothing.

However, when you do it the other way around and take buprenorphine when you've got an agonist like heroin in your body and have been taking it for some time ... buprenorphine displaces / kicks all the heroin off the receptors. And because bupe has less opioid effect than heroin, the shock-factor of going from heroin to buprenorphine within minutes is a bit like having a warm bath then jumping into an icy cold lake. It's precipitated withdrawal.

What happened with this guy (my friend) was he just used heroin after he had his last dose of Suboxone, while the buprenorphine was leaving his body. So slowly as the buprenorphine wore off and slipped off his receptors naturally to be peed out of his body, he had ample heroin waiting on the sidelines ready to slot back onto those bare receptors.

The precipitated withdrawal thing works one way. Heroin first, buprenorphine later = sick sick yuck no no don't do it.
Buprenorphine first, heroin later = not sick, but not good for your recovery.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:56 pm 
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this is what I did and I do not recommend it as I almost got fired from my work by coming in while in full blown detox. I had been taking subs for about 3 months and was having trouble taking less than 32mg a day. I tried tapering and failed every time. Always went back to 32mg to feel okay. I went off subs for two days then took oxycodone, then fentanyl...then I was hooked back on that. I went off two or three days using neurontin to help with the withdrawal. it sucked. really bad sweats and RLS. so back on suboxone 5 days at 32mgs and then 16mg for one day then stopped. I am on Day 5 and very very minimal withdrawals. some aches and pains. but the worst may be yet to come. I am sooooooooooooo happy to be off of everything right now. I go to a meeting (NA or AA) every day and that helps a lot.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:28 pm 
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magdalene wrote:
. so back on suboxone 5 days at 32mgs and then 16mg for one day then stopped. I am on Day 5 and very very minimal withdrawals. some aches and pains. but the worst may be yet to come. I am sooooooooooooo happy to be off of everything right now. I go to a meeting (NA or AA) every day and that helps a lot.



I believe you may be absolutely right, your withdrawl may not have even STARTED yet,,,,,,
which sucks, yes.....

I was on 24mg for about a year, and ran out of my meds, not enough money to get any out of the pharmacy,
the two times I was out was for 8 and 12 days I think... I didn't even start to feel like anything was different
until day 4/5
I was more tired than usual the first 4 days, that was about it.

that's great you going to meetings is helping though, maybe you can find the support you need to get through the jump,
IF that's what YOU WANT to do.

I do wish you the VERY BEST in whatever it is, you decide.
good luck

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:49 am 
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He died today ...

Fuck this disease. He was my best mate. We used together, we got clean together, went thru rehab interstate together .. went on Sub together. Then he went off Sub and he died .

We started hanging out because we had a lot of shit in common. We both had bipolar 1, heroin addiction history, and both desperately wanted to get clean. I could talk to him about ANYTHING. Neither of us were a part of each other's friendship circles, and it was good like that, because neither of our other friends understood the shit we needed to talk about. We were almost each other's sponsors, even if it was at each other's detriment sometimes.

He was larger than life ... the best value guy I've ever known. He danced to his own beat and didn't give a fuck ... and that's what drew people to him. For a crazy mofo he was awesome with the ladies. We'd joke that now we're both single we'd go nuts drinking beer pickign up women through northcote's bars. It hurts to think how many good years he's thrown away. For someone with bipolar he was always really happy, something I envied in him.

My heart goes out to his family. His time on Sub showed them what he was capable of as a son and a person ... and now his addiction has robbed them of all their hope.

RIP Mitch my mate.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:51 pm 
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I'm so sorry TeeJay

hang tough, man

don't let this disease rob you, as well

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:35 pm 
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One thing I totally forgot up to now was that he was prescribed naltrexone for his alcoholism, and he told me he'd stopped taking it a few days ago. Naltrexone resets your opioid receptors and if you stop taking it, you're at a higher risk of OD than even a new opioid user.

Be careful of naltrexone.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:47 pm 
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TeeJay wrote:
One thing I totally forgot up to now was that he was prescribed naltrexone for his alcoholism, and he told me he'd stopped taking it a few days ago. Naltrexone resets your opioid receptors and if you stop taking it, you're at a higher risk of OD than even a new opioid user.

Be careful of naltrexone.



WHOA........

I had NO idea that naltrexone did that!!!!! seriously, shocked.... I'd never heard that til now.
thanks, tj

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That's TRUE STRENGTH
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:25 am 
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Yeah. I'm really quite surprised not many people outside of Australia know this fact. It's the sole reason that Naltrexone is NOT prescribed for opioid addiction in Australia anymore. In the mid 90's some a few well known addiction docs in Australia jumped on the naltrexone bandwagon for a lil while. At one stage it was becoming as accepted as methadone and subutex (suboxone not around yet) as a medicine to treat opioid addiction.

But after a few years a lot of evidence against it began to pile up. Most frightening is the fact that heroin addicts who chose to seek treatment with naltrexone had a greater chance of dying in the short-medium term than those who didn't seek treatment at all and continued to use. Long term studies have shown naltrexone is potentially harmful to addicts whom are at risk of relapse... and let's face it, which addicts aren't? It's for this reason these days it's reserved for alcoholics, or opioid addicts who can prove they are extremely motivated, or HAVE to take it in order to keep their careers ... ie doctors, nurses etc.

The naltrexone debate appears in the media down here from time-to-time, with one group of doctors claiming it's negligent to prescribe it for opioid addiction, and another group saying that addicts are already risking their lives enough anyway ...

I used heroin once after I'd been taking naltrexone tablets, just like my mate ... and its effects floored me. Fortunately I'd read enough pamphlets in the needle exchange saying "IF YOU'VE BEEN ON NALTREXONE, WATCH OUT... QUARTER YOUR HIT" etc etc ... I wish I coulda reminded my mate of this.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:18 am 
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TeeJay I am so, so sorry about your friend. I had a really bad feeling about this thread from the beginning, but I didn't imagine you would have to come on here and post this....it is so tragic.

Please take care of yourself and your own recovery right now. I hope you have mutual friends IN RECOVERY who you can be with now, and have a proper remembrance. Be very careful, please, we really care about you here.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:39 pm 
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TJ, I'm really sorry to hear about your mate.

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 Post subject: very hard
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:33 am 
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Sorry to hear that TJ, your mate sounded like a nice guy, man it's tough.
Sometimes that feeling of losing a close fellow addict, can be a very isolating experience.
Take Care


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:04 pm 
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Yeah that's true Stargazer..

Lilly ... to be honest, since I left NA, he was probably the only guy in recovery I kept in solid contact with. So apart from you guys, there's nobody else I feel I can tell anything and everything without hesitation. Since he died I've felt more than ever like going back to NA.

I say he was in "recovery" in that, even though he was falling back into addiction a lot more than I have been, it's undeniable he was overall getting better. These last 2 years saw some of his most stable years ever.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:52 pm 
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I'm sorry to hear that TJ. That's absolutely terrible news to hear.

I feel you on the not having anyone other than these forums. Even my close friends don't understand. It's like being stuck on an island with people who only speak mandarin Chinese.

RIP to your friend and stay strong buddy. You've got plenty of people willing to always talk.

WTBF


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:23 am 
I'm really sorry man. Reading this thread from start to finish really hit me. I'm going to think about this every time i have any sort of cravings. I seriously considered cold turkeying subs at one point and switching back to oxy. But this is all i need to think about whenever i think i am going to try and cheat the withdraw. For everything i've done in excess. I deserve a eye opening withdraw. Take care of yourself and thanks for sharing this story.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:40 pm 
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Thanks Will...

I went to his funeral this morning. Wow it was hard. Despite his difficulties, he had a lot of real close mates who cared for him a lot. His family told a lot of stories about the funny things he'd do whilst manic. I think it's amazing they had a sense of humor about what was really a difficult illness for him.

Anyway I'm really saddened because he was a good friend, who I talked to about anything in my life. He was a sick guy, but in many ways so am I. Bye Mitch.


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 Post subject: My condolences Teejay
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:03 pm 
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i have been following this thread. I too was interstd and rooting so hard for him and you. May Mitch finally get some peace. Man I am so sorry to hear this dreadful news.

Scorp


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:10 am 
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Thinking of you, TJ.

Amy

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