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 Post subject: Update
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:50 pm 
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Hey guys.

I posted in the introduction forum a couple of months ago and talked about how I had tapered from 32mg, quickly down to 8mg, and then to 1mg over the previous 8 or so months. 2.5 months later and I'm down to .75. I've been at this dose for about 4 weeks now but don't yet feel comfortable dropping. I know it's time when I can actually sleep 8 hours regularly without issue. Even at 4 weeks in, there are still nights I have a hard time getting more than 4-5, but my sleep is mostly back to normal.

It's kind of crazy, but I coasted to 1mg. I started trying to go over some things in my head and realized it took me about 7-8 months to drop my dose 87.5% (from 8 to 1mg), so to go from 1mg to .125 might take another 7-8 months where I had planned to do it in just a few months.

I feel like I should be ready for another drop next week. I think I'm going to go to .625 then to .5, then to .4, .3, .2, .15, .1, .075... jump? somewhere around there. I just had a buddy jump last month from .1 after stabilizing on that for about 6 months and said he had about a week where he felt like shit and then started to feel great. He's a lucky one, but this has given me great hope.

I was planning on jumping early 2013, but it I'm realizing now that if I want to do this with very minimal withdrawal and side effects, I'm going to have to take my time the same way I did dropping from 8 to 1mg. So right now I'm planning to do all the above doses for ~a month and jump next summer. Perhaps I'll be able to do it sooner, perhaps not, but if dropping to these lower doses is anything like dropping from 1mg to .75, I know it's going to take some time.

For anyone out there still using, or trying to stop, or thinking about stopping... There is hardly anything I can write here that will change what you do. But I was once where you were. Coming here infrequently, knowing one day I would be here myself, but just waiting for that shoe to drop... Anyway, what I wanted to say is that you can use suboxone successfully and taper, even with a monster habit. I did it. I never in a million years would think that nearly 10 months after stopping that I would have gone from 32mg to .75 mg. I would have probably guessed I'd be at 4mg by now if I were lucky. But I got serious and have been able to get lower than I've ever been on sub, and definitely in a better place than I've been with opiates in 6 years. If you commit to this drug and use it responsibly, it is literally a godsend.

I plan on continuing to update this thread with my drops. They may come in 4-6 week spurts, but I'll keep you guys posted.

I'm going to do this. It's just going to take a little bit more time than I initially imagined.

I know I haven't posted around much, but I'm still here, reading, learning, being inspired. Thanks again to everyone on here, in many ways this place keeps me motivated to keep dropping and dropping. And I love this place for that.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:07 am 
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Hey broseph,

Thanks for the update and Good Job with your taper!!

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 Post subject: Down to .625
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:17 pm 
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Hey guys,

It's been 6 weeks, but I'm down to .625. My hometown was slammed by Sandy and I was out of my apartment for 3 weeks, so my plan to drop to .625 didn't happen until I was back home 2 weeks ago. I ended up doing
.625
.75
.625
.75
.75
.625 ...

I've been at it for a week and feel great. The hardest day for me always seems to be the third day when I drop, I don't know why.

I'm gearing up to go to .5 this upcoming weekend because I feel so good at .625 already. Hoping to go to .4 from there sometime around the new year. Ideally I'll be at less than 50 micrograms or so by summertime.

I kind of feel like a dick telling you guys how great things are going, but it's just the truth. The hardest part about this thing is the the mental aspect. Once you have that beat, the tapering part really isn't too difficult if you take care of your body a little bit. I really just am so done with getting high on opiates. An old friend called me a few days ago and asked me if I wanted 60 percs for free. He knew I liked them and had found them lying around, they just weren't his thing. I told him no thanks, I'm not into that stuff anymore. I had previously handed some dilaudid back to another friend, which I considered a victory, but this one also felt pretty great. I know when I get off of suboxone, situations like that will be much more challenging, but that's what is so great about a long, slow taper. You get used to not being high. With all the destruction opiates caused my spirit, I just have absolutely zero fucking desire to ever take another one. I know how that movie ends and I don't want to watch it ever again.

Thanks for taking the time to read my story. This is more for me than anything else, but if it helps someone else, even better.

Talk to you guys again when I drop to .5


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:50 am 
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Hey broseph,

Good job on your taper! I love reading the positive stories on here. Im planning on tapering the same way you are. Please let us know how this goes as you continue to move forward.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:52 am 
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Hi Broseph,

that's a really great effort, going from 32 mg to where you are now.

Gee, I can really see so many similarities with your taper.
As you said just slow it down until your ready. from my experience there is no difference from .7 to .15, as long as you just keep it slow. ie. as long as you slow it down, everything should remain unchanged.

You know when you are ready to drop dose, because you start feeling good during the days, any RLS at night stops, and sleep becomes solid, and deep from drop off to rise. I would get only 5 to 6 hours sleep for a bout 6 months, but, and this is a big but., I would always grab a napp at least 2 hours every day fom about 1pm to about 3pm.
Because the bupe in my system, like yours runs out early, (mine ran out at 4am, which woke me up)

The important note here, is I was only dosing once per day, probably like you.

In essence what was happening here was that dosing once a day caused me to get really high levels of bupe in morning, say .8mg, which made every day almost too euphoric because, I would be so strung out at 5 am, that the once only dose in the morning, created that intense pleasure pain scenario, which is probably not that good, for anyone, trying to get off that feeling.

Man, did I really enjoy looking forward to every morning, I just loved that stillness and quietness of being up alone so early in the morning,. I got all my work down, and then had a nap, because i could just not stay awake, even at .7mg.
This is all due, to waking up in withdrawl, and sleeping through the end of each dose.

After about 6-8 months of doing this, and waking up early, and single dosing, I thought fuk it, and lets try to sleep in.
As you know this is impossible unless you start double dosing.

It is my hope that I can help you, also do this, if you are single dosing.

If you wanted to drop again, I know that this should work.

Take 60-70% of your dose as soon as you wake up, and just before bed, or a couple of hours before, take the rest.
I promise you, that you sleep much better, wake up later, and not suffer from such a yo-yo ing blood level of bupe.

love an peace
Hopespring
p.s. Use your ability to drop off into sleep as an indicator of your time to drop dose.
don't worry too much about length of sleep at this stage.

I have been where you are, and as you said from .7 to .1 took me around 6 months.
Just forget about rushing you taper,slow it down, o the point, where it does not even cross your mind.

To be honest I did it so slow, from .7 to .1, I rarely gave my feelings or the taper any thought.

I think we tend to think about this too much, when we have dropped to hard.

There is no rush,


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:01 am 
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Thanks for the replies.

Hope, I actually am double dosing. It's just how I've operated since I've been at 8mg. When I was doing above 8mg I was basically taking a full 8mg strip every 4-6 hours, but this is mainly because I was coming off a 360 mg a day oxy habit. Once the oxy was out of my system, getting to 8mg was easy, and I've been dosing at 9am and 9pm ever since.

At 1mg and above, I split my doses 50/50. Starting with .75, I started doing .5 on the morning and .25 at night. Right now with .625 I'm doing .325 in the morning and .25 at night. When I drop to .5, I'll probably do .3 in the morning and .2 at night.

So, ironically enough, we both created basically the same 60-70%/30-40% system independent of each other.

I plan on starting the liquid taper method with my next drop, at .5. I've heard many people say the bioavailability is better with the liquid and they feel like they're getting more sub into their system. I was thinking (and hoping) that this would make going to .5 via this method relatively easy (or maybe I'd be able to go ever lower initially to .4 or something), but we shall see, and I'll keep you guys posted.

Thanks again for your input; I appreciate you taking the time to read my story.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:48 pm 
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Thanks, Broseph, for keeping us updated on your taper! And Hopespring, it was great to hear about your experience too! I am tapering, but still up at 3.5mg. Your information is truly helpful to me and probably a bunch of other people. Congratulations on your success!

Amy

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 Post subject: down to .5
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:20 pm 
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Amy,
No problem. This thread is a lot for me to keep myself going and motivated; to share this experience with other humans makes it infinitely easier. The fact that it is helping you and potentially other people is a very nice bonus though, and makes me very happy. Thank you.


I only spent a few days at .625 before dropping to .5. I spent so long at .75 due to the storm that I think I was ready for a bigger drop. I hardly noticed anything going to .625 so I figured I'd make up for some lost time and see how .5 felt. I dropped Thursday and have been at it since, without having to increase my dose on Friday or Saturday, and today I feel good with just .25 as a 9am dose.

I think I'm going to start the liquid taper at my next drop instead of .5 because I can still cut .25 pieces and if the bioavailability is worse like that, then really, that's better. It will mean I'll be able to go lower on the liquid when I start it in a few weeks.

With the drop to .5, I know it's going to take me a few weeks to stabilize because I wake up and feel like I need a dose and start getting a little antsy 7-7:30pm for my evening dose. It's nothing unbearable at all and is usually a short wave of discomfort that passes. If it was bad I would increase back up to .625, but although my body definitely is eager to be dosed in the morning and at night the past few days, it's nothing I can't handle. I had gotten so comfortable at .75 that I felt completely normal all the time basically and kind of forget what a drop feels like. I just look at it as paying the piper in very small amounts over a long period of time.

Each day is getting easier and better though. This morning I woke up and didn't feel like I needed sub immediately and I'm hoping to feel the same way later. Even my sleep has hardly suffered; I've been getting at least 6 hours a night since the drop. I'll probably be totally normalized on .5 by sometime next week and will drop to .4 shortly after the new year. Since measuring with the liquid can be much more precise, I think I'm going to start making my drops really small, but a little more frequent. Possibly every 10 days?

Something like..
.4
.35
.3
.25
.2
.175
.15
.125
.1
.09
.08
.07
.06
.05
.04
.03
.025
.02
.015
.01

That's 20 drops and and at ~10 days each, that would have me jumping right around the beginning of the summer, as I have been planning. This is a constantly evolving process, but this is currently where my head is at with the whole thing. Knowing myself, it will probably take a little longer, but if this time next year I'm still on but very close to getting off, that will be ok too. I just like having goals and a plan.

Christmas will be my one year clean date off of oxy. If you told me this time last year I'd be where I'm at now, I would have never believed you. Seriously. I still kind of can't. But here I am and I feel fucking amazing. So much like my old self, before this whole mess started. Like I've said before.. If you commit to Suboxone and use it properly, responsibly and put in some effort, you can taper with minimal discomfort. I am living proof of that.

If I don't check in with you before the holiday/new year, have a great one everyone.

All the best.


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 Post subject: almost adjusted
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:30 am 
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I have some time this morning, so I figured I'd update you guys on where I'm at.

Adjusting to .5 has been easy at times, kind of rough at others. It's strange. There have been probably 3-4 days in the past 3 weeks where I had to take an extra .25 dose to sleep, but I haven't in at least 10 days and am getting back to 8 hours of sleep, so I'd say Im 90% normal on .5. I averaged probably 5 hours the first 2 weeks. Bearable, but not ideal.

As Lilly has mentioned many times, when you get below ceiling (generally believed to be around 2mg?), sub acts more like a short acting opioid and the half life means less because the dose cycles out way faster. I didn't really notice this until below 1mg, with my drops to .75 and .5, but maybe that's just because I'm dropping big % under the ceiling. Looking back on my journal, I made huge drops really fast above 2mg. from 32 > 16. 16 > 8. 8 > 4. 4 > 2.5. slowed down a lot there and started dropping by .5 or .25. That was all pretty easy.

I am going to start the liquid taper with my next drop and plan on going realllly slow, but more frequent than I've been doing. Like, literally going down by .05 at a time until I get to .25, then down .03 at a time until I reach a SJB or hopespring dose of .04-.05.

I'm not in any rush though. Ideally, I'd like to be there by sometime this summer and take a week off of work and lay on the beach the entire time.

I'll update you guys again when I move to liquid to let you know my experience with preparing and dosing with it. Should be ~2 weeks I'd say. I'm planning on feeling totally normal on .5 by early next week, and usually like taking a 7-10 breather before dropping again.

Talk soon. My best to everyone.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:51 am 
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Broseph congratulations on all of your progress. It's cool to see the tapering program work so well for some people. I wish I had known about it originally. -Seriously-

I would suggest one thing when you actually jump - Sitting on the beach all day does sound quite nice, in theory...But you may be driven a little nuts by sitting around ;).

Keep us updated and stay ontrack! 32mg down to .5 is incredible. Best of luck with your future endeavors!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:00 pm 
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I just want to let you all know that I too did a slow taper 2 years ago and stayed off of Suboxone for 18 months. The problem was that I never did anything to substitute taking the Suboxone, like therapy or meetings. What happened once the suboxone was out of my system completely, was the mental cravings. And I withstood the mental cravings for a year and a half. But just recently, I made the decision to get back on Suboxone because I was tired of the mental cravings. I think if I went to meeting or went to counseling once I was totally off suboxone, I might have stayed off of it. Just want to give you all a heads up and let you all know my experience. Good luck to you all!


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 Post subject: On and Off
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:24 pm 
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broseph, Thanks for coming back and updating your thread. The way you explain it makes it sound easy, but then you haven't stopped completely yet. My guess is you won't have too bad of time with stopping it next summer. Enjoy that beach!

raudy1975, Your post totally threw me off my chair! I commend you for having the insight to go back on Suboxone instead of abusing opiates. Too bad the cravings didn't go away after all that time. I wonder if going to meetings would have helped or not. Either way, I think you made the right decision.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:10 pm 
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Thanks for the replies guys.

I'm pretty curious to see how my mind handles being opiate free when I do finally jump. I've got a little over a year clean off of my DOC and literally haven't had one single desire to use. I've seen and experienced too much to think that just doing it once will work out and I'll be able to control myself. I know I won't be able to, and have pretty strong resolve to never, ever touch another opiate again. But as you mentioned, I still have the cushion of suboxone. It's been nearly 7 years since I've had a day without opioids, so it will be a challenge for sure. I've seen too many people relapse and just generally completely fuck their lives up though. I appreciate the words of wisdom and will keep them close.

I'll update again after I sort out the liquid taper and let you guys know how I'm doing it.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:13 pm 
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I'm down to .375

Still cutting tiny pieces. I can get .25 easy and now I just cut them diagonally with a scissor. I take .25 in the morning and .125 at night. I'm going to hold off on the liquid until it is absolutely necessary because it's a little unrealistic with my living situation and I'd rather not have to explain it to my roommates. If I can get my hands on 2mg strips I'll be able to cut those into .0625 easy and even .03125 diagonals, so I'm thinking I might be able to avoid the liquid all together possibly.

I spent longer at .5 than I originally planned because it really does take a while for me to feel 100% at these low doses. The first 4-5 days the withdrawal is most noticeable, but really not too bad. After that it's a slow climb to feeling 100%. I was realizing I was almost forgetting to take my 9pm .25 dose so that's how I knew I was ready to drop. Been at .375 for 3 days now and a little lethargic/yawny/shitty sleep, but the normal symptoms for whenever I'm dropping. Another month from now I'll go to .25. By then hopefully I'll have some 2mg strips. and will go slower from there down to .03-.06.

Still thinking summertime. Still chugging along. No rush, just want this to be as smooth as possible. I firmly believe anyone can do this if they set their mind to it.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:44 pm 
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Thanks for the update! I'm glad to hear you're still "chugging" along. :)

I'm continuing too. I'm done to 2.5 mg/day. Steady and slow wins the race!

Amy

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:07 am 
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Hey Amy, that's great. Glad to hear you're still making progress.

I'm posting again because I feel like I've turned some kind of corner. I had 3 weird days adjusting, but now I almost feel like I hardly even need the sub. I used to wake up and feel a hint of withdrawal, and feel the same in the evening. Now it seems like I don't feel that at all. I think I'm going to try to drop to .25 sooner than expected. If it's as painless as this drop has been all things considered, I think getting down to a low enough dose to step off might not be too far off. I'm still dosing with 8mg strips so 1 lasts me 21 days at this point. The pieces I take are very small.

I feel more sober than ever and have only very recently realized what a fucking cloud I was in all those years I was taking heavy doses. The mask is lifting. I'm naked in front of the world again and it's exhilarating, but also a bit unnerving. I'm not totally used to it. I'd be lying if I said I still don't have cravings. As of late, I do. My brain says I should get a few vicodin to help me through the short sub withdrawal. Or that you can handle getting high every now and then. You did for years before a traumatic event pushed you into full blown addiction and you'd never make that mistake again. But underneath it all, I know this is my disease doing whatever it can to try to gain a foothold again. I don't want to put the mask back on. I want to start living my life as me, and not some emotionally vacant pill popping junkie.

I am going to see an addiction specialist within the next few weeks. I found one near me a few weeks ago who has great things written about her on the web, but have been putting off calling her. Writing all of this out makes me realize I have to go if I want to stay sober. I have to put in the work. I've made too much progress to go back.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:34 pm 
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I've found that little evil voice in your head seems to diminish almost completely once you are past any real withdrawl symptoms.

The only thing I think that could bring the little evil voice back is if someone was using in front of me. I had a co-worker offer me percocets the other day because I was kind of an emotional wreck (non sub related emotions..) - she use to give them to me all the time.

My anti opiate nazi personality kicked in, but for a split second I felt the voice... You'll feel better, you'll probably be ITCHY from how long you've been off.

Yep, fuck that. Slippery slope indeed.

You're getting into those eeny weeny teeny (Did I just take anything, or am I eating air?) doses. You should be able to coast through with relatively moderate to slightly annoying withdrawls.

Addiction specialists are great, mine is very fun to talk to.

Keep it up Broseph!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:49 pm 
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My previous post talked about the first cravings I was having in over a year and since I started sub. Those passed after a couple of days, and I've been good since. I didn't even come close to using, but it was kind of scary to actually think about it for the first time.

Anyway, I'm down to .25. Sorry I haven't been around here much. I've just been really focused on getting shit done in the real world. I'm feeling really good and really sober. Getting to .25 was a piece of cake. I think I'm getting really close to being able to step off, but I'm just going to keep going until I get to .06 and then start spacing doses out. If I can do this painlessly, that would be ideal. I'll let you guys know next time I drop and will definitely be around more when I finally jump.

Hope everyone is well.


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 Post subject: Broseph..can you help?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:35 am 
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Hi Bro, wow, I really enjoyed reading your progress..gives me hope. I found myself waking up this morning struggling if I should start my downward taper as you did from 1mg.

I have a couple questions if you wouldnt mind. I think it is important to "believe" in your system. I totally agree with you and Hope splitting the dose helps. I currently take .5/.5 = 1mg a day.
Been on 1mg now over a year..way too long.

I see you went from 50/50 dosing to 50/25? Why was that?

You took a good 6 weeks at .750 as you said you didnt feel comfortable completely so needed those extra weeks to "stablelize". Im just curious why you just didnt continue with the 50/50 split down below 1mg? that is where I am at. I know dosing with the cut up films..would be easy to take the .5 in mornings as I always do then just take half of that in afternoons however that would be a 50% drop in evenings for me.

I was thinking doing the .375/.375 route? Im wondering if that would have helped you stableize more when you were still at .75 because you would only be dropping .125 instead of .25 in that evening dose?
Just curious what made you go the .50/.25 when you were successful at the 50/50 all the times before?

Second question, I dont understand the schedule you have for when you dropped? You had given an example of the week you drop but you only listed 6 days. Im confused why you would drop (as an example)..from .75 to .65, then go back "up" to .75, down again then go back up for two days in a row at .75, then down? Especially where you went back up to .75 2 days in a row? Wouldnt that just make it harder for you as that (to me) would make my body want that higher dose again (all over again). I was always told NOT to dose up?

I get it that you may be testing the half life..and getting your body used to the drops without dropping yet (hense the reason you went back up again a few times that week) however, what is the EXACT schedule or "rule" you follow when you do that? I have seen others imply this method but it would help if you explain the actual "schedule" as I would like to try it?

IOW, can you give me an example of the entire week you drop...and why you do the latter 2 days (in the latter part of the week) at your original dose then drop again permanently to the lower? And is this a process of 7 days or longer you do this until you stablize at the lower drop?

I guess Im not seeing the logic to that.

To me, I am thinking to drop to .750 just by reducing BOTH dosing times (am/pm) by .125. Stablize then just keep doing that. I am not sure teasing my body by going back to the original dose how that works? Maybe if after a few days I feel bad but just would help to understand why/how you go about the drop schedule you use?

LAst Question, I read where it may make sense as you get lower to divide up the dose even more to accomodate the drops..so for instance...dropping to .750 (from 1.0)..would it make sense to do .25/.25/.25? Some people say that is not good as adding more dosing times is "drug behavior" but how can that be if I am just leveling the dose out in my system (same as I do dosing twice a day). For now, I can get through 24hrs without even feeling the dose (because I have been here so long) at .5/.5 But as I drop I can see the doses may not go as far in the day..so do you think it would be ok if I took the extra .25..(or maybe even when I got to .50..like spread out the .125 doses more (4 times a day) vs. splitting twice a day?

How do you feel about that?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:41 am 
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I just thought of one more question Broseph if you can answer?

When you say in your schedule that you went .625/.75/625/.75/.75/625... the days you went back up to .75 did you go back to .50/.25 or did you just add an additional .25 later in day but stayed at your new dose in mornings of .375? Iow on those days you went .375/.25 then you added another .25 later in day to help with the withdrawal adjusting to lower dose? Or, did you just go right back to .50/.25 on those days? Curious.

To me that makes a difference.

Sorry for these questions but to me dosing makes ALL the difference.


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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