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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:25 pm 
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Hey man thanks for your response, I was not implying that anybody should pretend, but not to assume others will get discouraged if you had to speak about any symptoms you may have been feeling, or to think you cannot admit you can be feeling symptoms as it will scare others, this might be the case but I personally would rather people spoke their mind and not hold back..Please I am not implying you are going through any symptoms, I am speaking in general vibes here, that anybody does not have to think they cannot speak about withdrawals as it will deter others, I do not think anybody should hold back for these reasons alone.

I implied that a jump from doses above 2mg can be doable because there is the stacking affect theory, meaning the long half life can taper the sub out of our bodies and receptors instead of tapering down by taking small doses, which many people have reported are stronger.

Many people do not get any withdrawals while they are reducing suboxone, my conclusion in this is that any suboxone you are taking whether that be .125 or 1mg is blocking the withdrawals from coming out of our system, it can be holding it in the receptors, and the only way to experience withdrawals is stop taking the suboxone, I believe this is why those who taper down still experience long lasting symptoms or withdrawals. Please bear in mind people this is simply my own take in this theory, judging from other people's experiences tapering down it seems many still do experience symptoms, even worse symptoms then those who simply stop at 1mg and above.

I also have not experienced any symptoms while reducing my sub intake at all, now there could be few reasons for this, but I would not rule out the theory that withdrawals are being blocked out because of the tapering, and taking any sort of dose of sub is pushing the withdrawals back in our system, so when I do eventually stop all the withdrawals will release themselves.

Many have said tapering merely reduces the intensity of withdrawals but does not cut out the duration or the post acute symptoms, yet others have gone far as to say it can extend the duration of withdrawals or make them feel as though they are Hydrocodone withdrawals, again I think this may be something to do with small doses acting like Hydrocodone or other opiates. It is an interesting debate and judging from other people's experiences nothing is set in stone. I have seen the charts and half life, but that does not mean people will experience it exactly like that, nor does it mean it is fact that people experience less withdrawal symptoms reducing down. Surely everybody who tapered down would not experience withdrawals? surely those who jump from a high dose would experience very bad symptoms? but many do make it to the other side and claim a high dose jump or even cold turkey of bup is much doable then stopping from low doses, so I think we need to be objective about this.


Last edited by Robert on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:26 pm 
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All in all I am interested in people's experiences and hopefully they will keep updating. I think everybody's experience is different to each others but it does make you wonder why 5 or 6 months down the road you see and hear people claim their symptoms got worse, or still feel uncomfortable a year later considering they did a slow reduction too. I do not think a taper can eliminate PAWS, if someone was to claim 6 months down the road they had PAWS then would a taper of any sort rectify that? to me it does not make sense, when you do not feel that much different tapering down it does make you wonder if there are much benefits in the long run tapering your suboxone dose. If you only feel different when you stop suboxone then you may as well jump from any dose or cold turkey.

If someone is going take a certain amount of time to recover from suboxone symptoms whether they do a reduction or not then you have to question whether a long slow taper is really worth it.. I just hope and wish there were concrete studies on suboxone and any data that clearly shows tapering down cuts down withdrawals, even PAWS, and speeds up recovery time.. From reading suboxone stories the time limit of recovery seems same for those tapering or not tapering..

One can even claim speed of recovery can stack in the favor of those who either spent a short time on suboxone, stopped from 1mg and above or simply did the cold turkey way, again the point comes back to whether tapering just postpones withdrawals, or adds them or simply gives the same result as those who jump cold turkey or just stop from 1mg and over.. We just have to wait and see for any information and date to made public.


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 Post subject: Re: YEWWW
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:35 pm 
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SouthJaxBeach wrote:
Awesome job Broseph! I’ve been looking forward to reading this success story from you for months now! Your symptoms(or lack thereof) seem very similar to what I experienced jumping from .05mg, after a slightly more accelerated pace than your taper. It may be a couple weeks before you get a GREAT night’s sleep and you’ll probably need some time to get use to day-to-day life of opiate free living…BUT it’s no big deal, I doubt you’ll feel any real W/Ds. People who think that jumping from a higher dose is similar to jumping from a dose as small as yours, just do not understand IMO.

The only comparison that holds water is the longevity of the symptoms; however, your symptoms will barely register on the radar, while someone who jumped from a higher dose may be house ridden for weeks. I agree it is completely possible to taper, stop and get on with life without disclosing info or missing a day from work!

P.S. The most physically challenging drop for me was from .5mg-.3mg as well…never bad, but harder than the last drop.

Good luck with your new life Bro, you’ll learn to love it!!!


Hi South Jax Beach. I know couple of people personally who have stopped suboxone from way higher then 0.5 and and also went through tapering, yet said it was better for them to jump from high doses so the stacking affect of half lives can taper them off, rather then to feel shit tapering down and still suffering symptoms if not worse. There must be reasons why there are conflicting reports in regards to tapering or high dose jump. There are many people who went really low yet had mild withdrawals for months, and then PAWS for several months, even a year, then there are people who stopped at 1mg, 2mg and over who had similar results or recovered much sooner..

I do tend to to agree that suboxone pshycal withdrawals are not very intense even if you jump from a high dose, many report mild withdrawals but it is the duration of them that frustrates people, I have not found too many people who claimed their taper cut out the duration of their withdrawals or eliminated some PAWS. I think if anybody has been taking suboxone for the long term then even if you taper down the recovery time seems to be long as those who jump from a high dose.. I can honestly by into the theory of the stacking affect helping your initial withdrawals, I can see why a high dose jump would make your withdrawals much milder because like someone already said the half life will gradually taper you off..

I too can buy into the theory that the lower you go the more sub behaves as Hydrocodone or Oxys, so when you stop at those dosages not only do you experience long lasting symptoms but intensity can be high too. Nothing is set in stone and we will not know until we go through it ourselves. But it seems mentally it takes a hell of a long time to recover from sub even if you do taper down, some even go far as to say tapering adds more sub to the receptors.. I would just be ridden with frustration if I came to know that my taper only extended misery or made no difference to the outcome of withdrawals and recovery time. I suppose am looking for the easiest way out but I guess there is not any.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:48 pm 
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What's up Broseph, it sounds like you're home free buddy. With that taper I wouldn't expect much, especially If you're still sleeping.

Icarus I didn't have Paws. I jumped from a high dose. I was on longer then a year.

Now you've met someone.

Keep it up Broseph! The jump is the hardest part.

-WTBF


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:27 pm 
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Amy, q, SJB, WTBF... thank you, sincerely! Your guys support and stories helped me more than you'll ever know.

Feeling just fine, honestly. I have no withdrawal to speak of. I'm just adjusting to being sober. But it feels less and less weird every day. I slept last night without xanax and got 4 hours. Not bad. Might take a little tonight to get a full nights sleep. I think I'm going to try to do every other day with that until my normal sleep returns.


Robert,
I don't mind your verbosity, but you're terribly redundant.

You literally wrote that many people have reported that smaller doses are stronger. Oh, and that tapering adds more sub to the receptors.

That's where all your credibility went out the window.

I have no animosity towards you, but you're cluttering an otherwise positive-minded story with fear-mongering and nonsense.

No matter how much you stack in your system, the sub still leaves at the same pace. The whole idea of a taper is to wean that MEAN DOSE down so when you jump your WD is less severe. This is basic common sense, and basic math. Yeah, if you jump off a large dose obviously the first couple days will be ok because your brain isn't adjusting, it's in free fall. Then you hit the ground and hell begins. I stepped off a curb instead of a building. I'm at a week and am just dealing with an inability to sleep through the night. I literally feel totally fine during the day.

Please, take your ignorance elsewhere. Thanks!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:08 pm 
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Hey calm down man, I was only being objective about the whole issue of tapering and moderate to high dose jump. I do not see anything wrong with debating the half life, cold turkey and tapering issue. I just tend to think with an open mind and broaden the horizon somewhat. It is true many people taper down and struggle with withdrawals and the PAWS, it is also true many people jump cold turkey and do not suffer extreme withdrawals, so again I like to be objective about this. I do not think it is set in stone that tapering down the sub makes things easier, for many people it can make things harder, and we need to accept that rather then imply everybody has the same experience.

The theory was high and moderate doses do not cover all the receptor sites as the half life makes an exit somewhere (since the half life is strong and long) yet within doses under 1mg the half life hangs about in the receptor sites because since it is not a high dose the half life hangs about, and there is no where to go, and when it does hang about it can feel as though it was being accumlated, remember sub does not have the half life of weaker short life opiates, it simply feels like they are not going anywhere whether you take a small dose or taper down, hence why I believe many struggle with symptoms such as post suboxone depression and feel their withdrawals acted like Morphine or pain killer opiates.

I keep reading the phrase "less is more" I can sort of understand that because ever since I went below 1mg I feel as though I am more of a zombie then I was moderate doses, my sexual desire dissapeared, motivation decreased and I merely feel any emotions, yet when I was on moderate doses I still had some of these feelings, but not now since I went below 1.7mg or so. This is why I try to be objective and to see whether tapering down is all that beneficial or not, for me anyway..

Maybe one needs to stay on such a tiny dose of sub for several months to make any difference? to demolish the half life that has been built up, but I would be amazed to find anybody who can actually do that. I know I am not the only one because one of my friends tapered down to .125 and under but around 6 months she was feeling mentally horrible and put it down to her 2 year suboxone use, she was under 1.5mg for most of her time on sub, she did a slow reduction to .125 and was shocked she was not feeling her old self 6 months later, it was PAWS she was dealing with, she had some acute withdrawals too but it was mental symptoms she struggled with, this is what suboxone is more famous for, rather then pshycal withdrawals which the likes of heroin, oxys, darvs etc are popular for.

So I apologize if I came across negative, I just wanted to be objective about the whole issue and compare experiences, and look for reasons why not everybody has the experience tapering down to small minute doses, and why many who jump cold turkey make it to the other side, or those who simply taper down in short space of time, I do not see any problem with researching just a bit more, it can help people to make more informed decisions down later. Another interesting issue I found out was that someone did the Weismaan method to get off 16mg of suboxone, and recovered in 3-4 weeks and has been fine ever since, yet there was someone else who did rapid detox to get off 2mg of sub but still felt bad 4 months later, even having some pshycal withdrawals lingering on, so again nothing is set in stone and nothing is factual, many other factors come into play too, so again I was only trying to be objective about this.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:30 pm 
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It feels like you are suffering confirmation bias. There is no objectivity in citing a very select subset of subjective experiences. The fact of the matter is that people get addicted to opiates for a vast number of reasons. Genetic predisposition, emotional trauma, physical trauma, a combination of all three, the list goes on...

If someone is jumping off a dose of suboxone between 0 and 250 micrograms however, after a long taper, and still experiences significant withdrawals, I call horse shit in 99% of those cases. Physically, they won't really be there. It's biology and neuroscience. Their withdrawals have their genesis in their mind, and they did no work mentally to figure out exactly why it is they decided to ingest large/moderate amounts of opiates on a daily basis to begin with. There are obviously outliers to absolutely any medical condition, and opiate dependence, treatment and recovery is one. But I firmly believe that a slow, intelligent, deliberate, focused taper off sub is the best way to mitigate the overarching issues concerned with withdrawal from a short acting opiate one is physically and potentially mentally and emotionally addicted to. Those folks you know who still claimed to experience PAWS like symptoms 6 months after discontinuing the use of a dose like 125 micrograms are the same people that couldn't make it 4 hours into an oxy or heroin or hydro WD without totally freaking the fuck out. Not that there is anything necessarily implicitly wrong about that. It is what it is. There is an old cliche and maxim that everyone must hit their own bottom and genuinely want to get clean. Knowing myself, and knowing other addicts that have cleaned up vs. others who have continued to relapse, I truly believe this is the case.

I'm not saying tapering is easy, or a walk in the park, or not rife with its own pros and cons. It is. But for me, it was an amazing tool to have a chemical/drug that I could use to wean my opiate addicted brain off a chemically similar substance I was addicted to mentally, physically and emotionally for so long. I was ready to to clean the last day I got high. The reality was that my brain and body weren't. So I systematically took my brain and body off it, with my mind. It wasn't all fun and games. But if suboxone didn't exist, I don't know where the fuck I'd be. I know methadone made me, personally, high. Suboxone didn't. That allowed me to work out what I was hiding from while my brain healed.

It's complex, personal and highly psychological from my purview. Which is why so many different people report so many different experiences.

Your worries are born out of fear. If you truly want to slay the opiate monster, you have to destroy that fear. And it is a fucking monster. You and everyone else who wants to lead a sober life free of suboxone (not necessarily for everyone.. no judgement) has to be 1000% committed to knowing that when you break free even of the chains of sub that there is no desire in your heart, mind or emotions to go back. You're just using it as a tool, which it can be. A hammer can kill someone. It can also build a house.

In my opinion and from the deductions I've made in seeing friends, acquaintances and myself try to get clean, using suboxone is just a tool, like that hammer. It can build and it can destroy. If you don't want to be clean, your mind will find a reason to make you want to use. If you want to truly break free, jumping off a low dose of sub is truly, honestly, not difficult at all. You're reading horror stories. Mine is the flip side, and there are plenty more like me. But if being off opiates is what you truly, really, honestly want, then tapering off it and jumping is secondary. Yeah, days will suck. Yeah, there will be shitty sleep involved. But you're not jumping off a skyscraper. You're taking the elevator down, trusting it will not mechanically fail on the way, and walking outside and off a curb.

The mind is very powerful and belief in something/anything is the motivating force behind what your reality ultimately progresses towards and manifests as. Embrace your taper. Say FUCK OPIATE DEPENDENCY and just fucking do it. It's possible, and the easiest way out if you want it to be.

I honestly have no ill towards you. Zero. You just literally make no sense to me. Less is more is only a phrase commonly associated with sub because so often people get started on doses way higher than they should be started out on. It's obviously not really more. MORE IS MORE. Less is more only means "less will work better because you're taking too much."

It's about stabilizing, feeling "normal," then working your brain off a chemical dependancy. It can be done. I, and others have done it. It's about doing the work on why you starting using and why you got addicted in the first place.

I think what you, and Icaras to a large extent are speaking of when you talk about these horror stories is people who are either
1) In poor physical condition. Exercise is important in life in general, but especially important for a taperer and someone who wants to recover off ceasing the use of opiates. (Not saying they can't be successful, but exercise and diet is probably most important for them)
2) People who don't remember how they felt BEFORE they got addicted. Maybe they were depressed before and the opiates masked that depression. Now they're gone and all those emotions they hid from are rushing back. This is what I'm talking about when I say working on the WHY while you taper. Maybe they need anti-depressants, or talk to a therapist, or both. They definitely have to find something to occupy their mind and an old or new hobby are a good place to start.
3) Big babies who sit there all day thinking about withdrawal and then their mind delivers them. It becomes psychosomatic.

Also, your second paragraph is total nonsense. You're starting to feel shitty under 1.7mg because that's probably your ceiling dose. This is where the works begins. You will suffer in minute amounts as you lower your dose, or you can just stop now and have a really hard 2 weeks-month. It's up to you how you want to experience that withdrawal.

On that note, I'm at like 2 weeks or something and feel great. Sleep has basically returned to normal. I take .25 xanax some nights to induce sleep, but other than that, everything is feeling pretty fucking normal.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:28 pm 
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I just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to document all your reductions and the final jump...twas an awesome thread for me to read!!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:45 pm 
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Hey! Way to go! I think you're on Day 14 or something? How're you feeling!? I'm also one who tapered and I know from not tapering 2.5 years ago, it does make a difference!! Regardless of how you got here, you're here. Your clean, you're happy, you're exercising, and feeling good! Keep it up!


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 Post subject: Applause!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:03 am 
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Broseph,

Your last post was fabulous!

It is so hard to see from the other side, but now that I have been through most of my taper I can see how much of this whole thing we can control within ourselves. I have had some good days, and some not so good days. But, reflecting back on my worst days I can see that if I had not allowed myself to dwell on the cravings, or bad feelings I could have made those days so much easier!

That wasn't the only point I agree with...honestly, one of the best posts I've read here in a long time.

I need the little applause emoticon...

Q


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:09 am 
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Ditto Horsegal!

Amy

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:41 pm 
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Thanks for the love and good luck with your journeys.

You got this!


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