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 Post subject: Upcoming Dr. Visit
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:05 pm 
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Hello everyone, I am 11 days clean this morming. Subs are working wonders, and I feel fantastic! I have an appointment with my MD tomorrow morning to discuss where I am going from here. My dr. wants to switch me over to Vivitrol (1/month naloxone injection) after only being on subs for 1 month. His plan is for me to start my taper tomorrow morning. I do not want this.

I decided that I am going to be 100% honest with him about my treatment thus far on suboxone. How I struggled to induce, and used the first two weks or so, and also how great life is for me at this point 11 days in. I am also going to let him know that I am part of a recovery forum dedicated to Bupe and suboxone. I would really like to be prepared with facts, and questions, as I feel that he would respect that more than just trying to wing it from memory (my appointment is at 7:30 so my brain will definitly let me down at that hour). I am hoping that members might post links to articles that might help my cause... Suboxone maintenance, Junig's thoughts on long term suboxone, or even just somebody's experience on naltraxone, naloxone, etc. Also, maybe some questions that I should ask him about these things, anything really would be great.

I can't help but feel nervous, I mean, this dr. appt could determine my future, whether I remain clean or not. I feel he is a reasonable man, but nevertheless, I would feel much better being armed with info. Thank you in advance.

Prodigy


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:06 pm 
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The one thing I can think to tell you is that Dr. Junig often reports that short term sub use is correlated with high relapse rates, especially in young people (under 30). I don't have the link to any articles about that on hand right now though. The best thing I can tell you is to really go through his blog posts (there are MANY) as well as any of his posts that he's made on this forum. I know I've linked to his articles and some statistics and outside articles as well.

If I find anything in the meantime that might help you, I'll be back to post it.

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 Post subject: TO sTILL pROD...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:17 pm 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
The one thing I can think to tell you is that Dr. Junig often reports that short term sub use is correlated with high relapse rates, especially in young people (under 30). I don't have the link to any articles about that on hand right now though. The best thing I can tell you is to really go through his blog posts (there are MANY) as well as any of his posts that he's made on this forum. I know I've linked to his articles and some statistics and outside articles as well.

If I find anything in the meantime that might help you, I'll be back to post it.




i HAVE FOUNd a lot of Dr. J's stuff by just looking around the forum and he seems to me to really kind of push staying on sub for a long enough period to get your shit together however long that might be. I don't know what this other med he wants to give you is, but if it is just something like antibuse for drinking and will make you sick if you take drugs , you still want have anything to take everyday to make you feel better and normal like bup...i would just be honest (listen to me about honestylol) and don't let him push you into something you do not want..

good luck,

Slipper


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:40 pm 
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Thanks for the quick responses, I really do appreciate it a lot. I just wanted to mention that I am working a double today (thank god) and thus am writing this from my phone. I really don't have time to dig for articles and have no way of storing them right now. That is why I am hoping to get some info on these forums so i can just throw it on he printer when I get home (likely at midnight). I hope I don't seem lazy, I just won't have the time or energy to do this tonight, and am leaving really early in the morning. Thanks to everyone.

Btw vivitrol is a naloxone injection that you take once a month its $1200.00 and yes its basically anabuse for opiates.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:51 pm 
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OK, this is what I found on long term suboxone vs short term:

Quote:
"Similarly, the comment that buprenorphine should be used ‘only short-term’ is a sure sign of a person who does not read the literature, and who does not understand the disease concept of addiction, but rather is stuck in the world of shame-based treatments. Opiate dependence is a chronic, relapsing, fatal condition—why should it not deserve treatment? Why the concern about being ‘clean’, when we don’t demand the diabetics be ‘clean’ from insulin? But the obvious comparisons aside, the simple fact is that short-term use of Suboxone has clearly been shown to be a waste of time—the relapse rate is virtually 100%! And still, people keep repeating the same thing… that Suboxone use should be ‘short term’. I would love to see those addicts in their docs office, being told that they would receive medication for their heart disease for ‘short term only’—after that they would avoid heart attacks through prayer. The success rate for treating coronary disease with prayer is likely similar to the success rate of short-term use of Suboxone for treatment of addiction!

People on Suboxone: I have seen many patients talked off of their medication by someone on the internet or at NA, only to return to my practice, sheepishly, 6 months later—if they survived the experience. I am not being dramatic; they do NOT all survive being talked off their Suboxone. The people on the web who induce guilt in people on Suboxone are true messengers of death; they do not see, or have any idea, of the lives of the people who they have impacted in such negative ways. Go on any health message board and read the posts over time—you will see people writing about their tapers and relapses for YEARS—and others who simply disappear, no doubt after relapsing and assuming THEY did something wrong. I hold the anti-sub zealots responsible; I have yet to personally meet anyone helped by those people, and I know literally 100’s of patients taking Suboxone, free of guilt and shame, enjoying their lives, and grateful to FINALLY have an effective medication for such a horrible disease."


It's from http://suboxonetalkzone.com/2009/04/sub ... hort-term/

I didn't read it again word for word, but it might be of help to you...I don't know exactly what you're looking for. (It's geared more toward the anti-subbers, but just read past that.)

Also, you might consider this. His plan for you will block opiates, yes, but so will bupe. But in addition, bupe will also address your cravings and during the time you're on it, it will allow you to learn to live drug free. You could explain why you think you need that time on suboxone.

I hope this helps.

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-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:52 pm 
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Hat, that was perfect, I remember reading that exact thread, and your comment after about how subs has the same blocker affect that the naloxone does is the perfect argument for long term maintenance, as opposed to switching over. I thank you very much for looking into this foe me. If you happen to think of anything plz dnt hesitate to post.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:25 pm 
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StillProdigy wrote:
Btw vivitrol is a naloxone injection that you take once a month its $1200.00 and yes its basically anabuse for opiates.


Wow! $1200.00?

If you're going to go down that road, fly down to Oz and get a 6 month implant for $$672 !! Save a sh*tload.

But this paragraph says it all:

Quote:
Is naltrexone suitable for anyone with an opiate dependence?

Naltrexone should only be taken by people who are on the path to abstinence from opiates. If you are on a high dose of methadone or are using a lot of heroin, it is likely that you have some work to do before you try to be abstinent with or without naltrexone. There have been cases of people having naltrexone implants before they are ready. These people have sometimes tried to override the naltrexone by taking massive doses of opiates which can lead to overdose. Also, naltrexone reduces your resistance to opiates such that people who start using again after a period on naltrexone are at risk of overdose if they use anything more than small amounts (much less than they had previously been accustomed to).


If I were you, I'd try to make it clear to my doctor:

- That you're really committed to recovery.
- That you're having doubts that you're ready for naltrexone.
- That you want to prove to yourself you can stay clean on Suboxone long term first before you go down that road.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:16 am 
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Tj, your wisdom astounds me my friend. Thank you I am going to print this poat and bring it in. Your bullet points are exactly the discussion points that I was lookig for. I am feeling confident now going into this appt tomorrow morning. Thanks to hat and slipper as well I made a list of questions and concerns for my dr. Tomorrow and am more than prepared. So grateful. Thank you everyone.

Prodigy


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 Post subject: Just an Update
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:43 pm 
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Hey guys, just wanted to let u know how I did. My dr. Said we could wait on switching to naloxone. Although he hesitated and said that he doesn't like keeping people on "chronic sub treatment". Also, the visit was 5 minutes again. He literally just gets up and walks away while talking and just says "your doin great". I am now realizing that I might want to look for a new dr. that is willing to qork with me and actually...gives two shits about my sobriety. I dont know, need to vent I guess. I pay good $ to see this guy and he litterally rushes me out the door. At least I bought some time to look. Thanks to everyone that helped me.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:01 pm 
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Damn thats good and bad news I guess. I think there are more bad Sub Drs than good. At least in my experience. I have had 2 and both barely knew a damn thing about the drug and did the same thing with rushing appts. Complete Quacks in every sense of the word. I basically just approached them as my legal drug dealers and told them what they wanted to hear so I could get what I needed and used the internet and forums like this to learn what I needed to know. My Drs never did a damn thing for me other than prescribe my Subs. Frustrating as hell I know

It def sounds like you need to find a new Dr tho. IMO I would chill out on the subs for a few months before tapering because you are still going to be coming off the methadone regardless since that preceded the subs. I really don't think a few extra months is going to make a huge difference either way and would prob be in your best interests. Good luck finding a new doc


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:09 pm 
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I havent taken metadone in a month though! You really think Its still there? I have a nice stockpile of subs right now so I a going to find a better doc. Luckily there are about 10 in my vicinity that are taking patients so I am going to do my research.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:27 pm 
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Not necessarily but its possible. From what Ive read on here from other members you are coming off of your prior drug habit as much as you are the subs, so the methadone in your case. Not sure why exactly this is, but maybe somebody could chime
in and explain. If you are ready to be off everything though I would say go for it.


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