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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:47 pm 
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Im new here and apologize for any mistakes,although im sure its not rocket science...So here it is,I've been on subs for a lil over 2 yrs this time. I have had relapse after relapse because a number of excuses, well after this current slip i fell flat on my face. I took a 8 mg suboxone about 7 hrs after my last shot of heroin, which thru me into a withdrawl from HELL for about 6 hrs, wrost being R>L>S throughout my arms and legs,along with all the other fun stuff.... i have done this a number of times with no negative reaction... Should i wait alot longer before i try to get back on the subs from dope. I had been doing about 3 grams a day, but i have been worse than that before and the subs worked great, time and time again..I have been on subs off and on for over 5 yrs now. Very ashamed to say i have used it as a crutch in many cases, just taking it when i had no other choice. I am currently desperate to get back on my subs the way i should of been taking them the whole time. I have been dependant on opiates for over 15 yrs now, I have tackled a 32 day withdrawl which was the worst time of my life! i didnt sleep 5 min for 32 days! restless leg syndrome throughout my whole body that whole time! which makes death seem appetizing at the time along with all your other pesty symptoms that come along with kicking...My point is im no baby when it comes to paying the piper, but im terrified to take that next dose of sub, ive been on the dope again ever since that horrable morning cause i wont risk it until i know for sure how long i should wait ( minimum) before i take the suboxone.Understand this has been my miracle pill! saved my life time and time again...it seems it turned its back on me the other day as i have turned my back on it by not sticking to my treatment plan.... also while im rammbling has anyone else expierenced in withdrawl this RLS, muscle spasms/bones jumping and itching their way out of ur skin to the point u will cut, burn, do anything to feel some releif?? For 32 days or more, and has anyone else gone that long with no sleep what so ever, 32 days ( not even 2 mins )??


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:21 pm 
Whats up DANNYB24K!!

Welcome to the forum!! Im sorry for your situation. Im was about to go to sleep but i will give some input into this. It may be short and not very well put but i will do my best. This isnt the best part of my day because im tired. Anyways, the RLS your talking about, thats the very reason i chose suboxone. My DOC was methadone. The RLS for me was througout my arms and legs and it literally felt like somebody was twisting my muscles back and forth mostly at night when i would try to go to sleep. It was hell!! I know this will probably make absolutely no sense but i would get so desperate for it to go away that i would try an lay on the floor just to go to sleep. Then the couch and then back to the floor etc. RLS is hell especially when its because of withdrawal. Anyways, others will comment but im about to go to sleep. Again welcome to the forum!!


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 Post subject: how long to wait
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:02 am 
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Hi, what i know about getting back on sub after a relapse (I'm certainly not a doctor or a health professional though) is that you are supposed to be in withdrawal when you take your first sub dose. I believe they say mild-to moderate withdrawal...but you should be really IN withdrawal and that is more important than exactly how long you wait since your last dose of your DOC. I can relate to what you are saying about relapses--I'm sorry to say that I have relapsed a LOT in the year-and-a-half I've been on sub too. I have never had a problem with getting right back on my sub after a relapse either. But...I think what happens is if your relapse is really brief, like only a day or two, it won't matter and you can just start your regular sub dose again the next day. At least i have done that and never had a problem. But...three grams a day of heroin is a lot...you didn't say how LONG your last relapse was though, but that might be the problem. In any case, i think you should just stop taking the heroin and wait as long as you can stand before taking your sub dose-that is, you have to wait longer than just until you are craving, you should wait until you are definitely into the physical withdrawal, and how long that takes varies. But I think you wait a minimum of 24 hours, possibly longer if you aren't really feeling more than mild withdrawal by then. As for what you said about the terrible insomnia you suffered--I cannot imagine going for 32 days with no sleep at all. the worst I've had it was about a week when I couldn't sleep more than about an hour a day and i was a total wreck, I was practically blind and so upset I was behaving almost psychotically. So i really cannot imagine what you are talking about going more than 30 days with no sleep at all. From what I experienced with only a week of very little sleep I would think that two weeks without sleep might actually KILL a person. As for RLS....wow, that sounds terrible...it's strange, it seems to be the symptom most people find to be the WORST of WD but I've barely even every experienced it (and i HAVE experienced withdrawal from heroin MANY times, believe me). For me the worst symptom was always the sweats. I've had people scoff at me for complaining about the sweats, but i think they really didnt' get how bad it can be--waking up every half hour or so all night long just DRENCHED in sweat...until you have no more dry blankets to use at all...and you're freezing...But the other stuff of WD, the diarrhea, the insomnia, the hot and cold flashes, the shivering, the horrible depression and lack of energy or motivation....and sometimes uncontrollable rages too (though with me that last might have been more of a PAWS symptom)--well I've had all that, but barely ever even a touch of RLS. From how much I hear others talking about how bad it is, I believe I've been lucky that i haven't suffered it myself. Anyway, my DOC is heroin too, so I can relate to what you said, and...i too feel badly and ashamed about how I've relapsed a lot even though I'm on sub. But...I am still certain that I would have done even WORSE if I werent' on sub. Also, we can only go forward so...instead of beating ourselves up about past relapses, what you're saying about taking our sub properly from now on is the main thing. I wish you luck. I've found this forum to be very helpful...lots of information shared and lots of compassionate people. I hope you find as much support here as i have. Please post again and let us know how things turn out. I think if you cruise around the forum a bit more, you'll be able to find other posts about the waiting until you're in WD before taking sub. Doctors are supposed to go by a checklist of symptoms called COWS to determine if someone is in mild, moderate, or severe WD...You can look up COWS online and check your own WD symptoms, adn once you're sure you're scoring to qualify as in moderate WD I think that's the time to take your first dose of sub. Some doctors go by a certain length of time, but really, how quickly a person goes into WD seems to vary a lot.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:07 am 
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Welcome to the forum! I'm really sorry that you are having to deal with this right now. I know you wrote about feeling some shame about what you're doing, but it's a self-fulfilling prophesy of sorts. In active addiction we do things that make us ashamed because we're already doing something that makes us ashamed, and the more we do it the worse we feel....it's literally a living hell. I can definitely relate and I can relate to the relapsing too. I relapsed for YEARS, over and over and over again and again and again, until I found suboxone. I don' know, but for me, it was just time to give it up. I hope you can get there too, some day.

In the mean time, if you're going to bounce back and forth like this, the longer you do it, the worse it's going to get. You really need to be in mild to moderate withdrawal when you take suboxone for the "first" time or you're going to experience what you experienced, which is precipitated withdrawal.

Use google and find a copy of the COWS scale to measure your withdrawal symptoms before you get back on subs.

Better yet, why not consider just getting on and staying on Suboxone? I'm going to guess here that you're getting the suboxone off the street, right? Do you have any interest in getting completely off the heroin?


Anyway, I won't brow beat you about it. I just want to help.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:02 pm 
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junkie781 wrote:
In the mean time, if you're going to bounce back and forth like this, the longer you do it, the worse it's going to get. You really need to be in mild to moderate withdrawal when you take suboxone for the "first" time or you're going to experience what you experienced, which is precipitated withdrawal.

Use google and find a copy of the COWS scale to measure your withdrawal symptoms before you get back on subs.

Better yet, why not consider just getting on and staying on Suboxone? I'm going to guess here that you're getting the suboxone off the street, right? Do you have any interest in getting completely off the heroin?




When I went on suboxone the first time I got sooooo sick. I had taken my last sniff of dope less than 24 hours before induction. I thought I was in moderate withdrawal, but my doctor looked at me and said I was not sick enough, and I was probably gonna get sick from the suboxone. I took 2 mg every 4 hours for the first 24 hours. Even though I was a mess and even throwing up, he told me to keep taking 2 mg every 4 hours. He told me to keep taking the suboxone no matter how sick I got. Within 24 hours of my first dose I was much, much better.
I'm not sure what kind of advice to give you, but for me what got me through that early w/d phase was smaller, more frequent doses.

Hope that helps, and that you get some sleep soon!!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:12 pm 
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I have no personal experience with this, but I have a friend who started too soon and experienced P/W. She was told to keep taking the sub and it only made her sicker. She stopped and waited it out until she was in the appropriate amount of withdrawals to start the sub up again. I guess it just depends on the person and how much of what is in their system. Good luck. Sorry I can't be of more help.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:55 am 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
I have no personal experience with this, but I have a friend who started too soon and experienced P/W. She was told to keep taking the sub and it only made her sicker. She stopped and waited it out until she was in the appropriate amount of withdrawals to start the sub up again. I guess it just depends on the person and how much of what is in their system. Good luck. Sorry I can't be of more help.


Yeah, it definitely got worse before it got better. There's a scene in the last Harry Potter movie (half-blood prince, I think) that totally reminded me of starting suboxone. Sorry to make light of something that is I know is really difficult. I hope either way it gets better soon.


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 Post subject: THANKS EVERYONE
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:52 pm 
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I cant say how impressed i am with all the positive feedback, its really put everything back into perspective for me. I do get a script for subs, and have been for about 2 yrs this time. I was also receiving suboxone back in 2005 for about a yr so i thought i knew how my body reacted to suboxone down to a science, I was wrong. I want to thank u for the advice about it not being so much a time period, but how bad one is into their with-drawl. I get my script once a month currently, and am on a 8mg dose once a day (30/mnth). I also get drug-tested once a month which i was able to hold down for about the first year and a half,(so cunning) Im in CONTROL right? lol NOT!!
About 4 months ago i was doin a gram a day of brwn, cleaning up about 4 days before my test, pass it, then right back to Mr Brownstone. About 2 months ago i had to PAY for piss, cause i was ove my head and couldnt clean up and this has been going on up to date. I have a drug test in the middle of the month which i fully intend on passing, afterwhich holding onto my seat and reclaiming some type of CONTROL and SANITY back in my life. I have blown $30,000 dollars in my arm in the past 6 months and only have scars to show for it! Makes me wanna puke when i think about it. I have run my buisness nearly to the ground and will be truly blessed to survive this quarter coming up. This last fall has been a nightmare, absoultely insane.
Today is the day, i did my last shot at noon time, (half grm) i intend to make it as long as i possibly can until i take a dose of sub, Im still a lil indecisive about how much i should take but i think ill start at 4mg. I am anticapating that ill make it till around noon time tommorow and honestly am terrified at what the night has instore for me. Its 5p.m right now and its been 5 hrs, i feel anxious and releif at the same time because ive finally arrived to where i need to be in my head, its that hole in every addicts road when they finally choose to step around it, instead of walking facefirst into it day after day, year after year,tear after tear. Killing ourseles as if our life depends on it, is nicley put...anyways i have hopped over that hole and choose life again.
I would like to address the comment i had made in my previous cryout about my sleep.Well back in 2007 i had had enough, I had over a 500 mg oxycontin addictin, I couldnt afford it anymore, I lost the Love of my LIFE! I lost my lil PRINCESS, I lost one of my jobs, I just kept losing and the walls kept closing tighter and tighter until i was going to jump over that fucking hole no matter what!( And get my whole LIFE back lol ) Well i checked into detox for like the 5th time and promised myself no-matter what i was going to follow thru, mind u in that last few weeks i had bottles of liquid morphine a very close family friend had got for me that works in the medical field, i had convinced them it was the only humane thing to do at that time, in which i was preparing to enter treatment but was falling so ILL becuz i just couldnt keep up with the habit anymore. Well i lasted 32 days with no sleep at all, I mean i was freaking out the night staff let me tell u, i remember calling my mom after around 20 days and crying on the phone with her literally thinking i had done permanent damage to myself and i had some crazy condition no dr could help me with... The lack of sleep came directly from the RLS, i mean as soon as i would lay down my body would practically scream out in convulsions, violent flinches because my bones jumped and itched and poked their way out. I would go into the shower and burn myself wit the water for releif, I would pointy knucklepunch myself in my muscles to feel a lasting sensation of anything just to get my mind off it. Day time was to no avail, same difference, as soon as i hit the bed my body would not let it happen. Dont get me wrong i would try, i wuld toss and turn for hrs upon endless hour in agony murmurring "God please just get me thru" over and over and over< on the brink of losing all my marbles i prayed to hold it together. I cried like a baby night after night, as i watched all my fellow addicts sleep like babies, Ugh! the torture... So let me be the bearer of bad news....It is possable to go more than a month without sleep and it is worse than i can even remember or explain in words here.
I stayed clean for the first time in my life for 6 months, i wont get into how i threw it all away, thats another story but after i lost it there was no way i had the strngth to even think about another 32 days with my trusty friend RLS waiting for me, which brought me back to the Suboxone which has saved my life, and im sure it will be saving it again tomorrow around noon time. I will keep everyone posted and thanks to everyone once again for all the advice


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:04 pm 
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dannyb24k,

WOW, all I can say is WOW, what a story. I was crying and bitching because I was only getting 2-3 hours sleep a night for the first long while. I have only read 1 other story from a different website that the person talked about getting no sleep, but they had Benzo's to withdrawal from on top of the opiates so I thought that was the cause.

Anyway, I sure look forward to hearing from you tomorrow after you take your sub and hopefully, hopefully are feeling better.

I hope you have some kind of plan for ditching any 'friends with H' that you know or knew. You have to know how bad those triggers are, right?

Suboxone has saved many of us on this forum and I have no doubt it can and will do the same for you. You sound like you're getting your head screwed on straight and suboxone is an awesome next step for you. I have to admit that I'm not sure if 8mg per day will be enough for you though. Just keep in mind several people start out at a high dose and maintain there for a while as they get their brain back into a better thinking state, then start cutting their dose.

Looking forward to hearing from you.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:23 pm 
Holy wow thats crazy!! I can relate to the RLS. That was the absolute worst withdrawal symptom i ever got and it was the very one i just could not handle which is just one of many reasons i chose suboxone. When you said you would punch yourself in your muscles, it brought back memories. I use to do that same exact thing because i would be so desperate. I can definitely understand and relate to that. I would also try taking hot showers, which really didnt work. I would try sleeping on the floor, the couch, then back to the bed, then the floor and i was all over the place all night long when this was occuring. Although, my DOC was methadone. It put me and my life through pure hell. It was my best friend and my worst enemy all in one. Not anymore though. That was 19 months ago and i am living proof that life does get better. Im just so glad you've found this forum to share all of your journey with. I didnt actually find this site until about 8 or 9 months into my treatment but ever since, i have been so thankful because it has helped me tremendously. Well, goodluck with everything and let us know how it goes!!~PEACE~


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 Post subject: i MADE IT!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:23 pm 
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wOW what a pretty intense 50 hrs pEOple.... I was able to wait 18 hrs from noon time Monday which brought me to 5a.m Tueasday morning, I mean pupils dialated, Sweaty, Cold, Back Aching, and yes my personal favorite RLS. Well this is so weird but here it is,mind u i have had my expierence coming on and off sub hundreds of times throughout the years, i took only about 2 mgs because i was afraid it was still too early, which miraclously helped with all my sysmptoms for about an hr maybe more not too sure beacuse after that i went into another WITHDRAWL from HELL!!!!!!!!!!!! perciapated (not sure if thats spelled correctly) or what idk, this has never happen to me before besides the last too times ive been trying to get back on my little orange PIll from Heaven that has saved me so many times, for years! I am coming off 3 grams a day of the nastiest mud ever but sub has always helped no matter what!! The last time i felt RLS like this was last wk when i only waited 7 hrs after my last shot and went into perce...withdrawl. Which was so stupid, i figured it was close but id be ok like time and time before, Everyone just please be CAREFULL when inducing into this DRUG because its not worth taking it too early!!! I cant stress that enough. 18 hrs was not long enough for me this time and Heroin has a typical short half life. The Rls will make most go to the emergency room or 5th fllor because thats how bad it is!!! Its a shame what these drugs do to us, Im the first to accept responsability for my actions and realize as this is a disease we are held accountable to do everything we can to fight it. I wouldnt call abusing my program and relapsing time and time again is justified by any means because it was a selfish choice i made, lucky i made it out once again and how u might ask???? WITH SUBOXONE sure i suffered the worst i ever thought possable trying to get my body back adjusted to it, but it was my choice to stop taking it so i could start poking myself again. Some may ask if i had takien enough suboxone...well at 5.am i took that quarter.helped for an hr or so like i said, went into withdrawl after it helped briefly which i thought was impossable! so over the next 4 hrs i had taken another 12 mgs. Didnt help at all. I suffered the worse i had in my arms from that RLS i was hitting myself for 2 hrs with a hoof hammer just to feel another sensation, So intense, just please no matter how shitty u feel just give it 24hrs before taking it in my opinion.... Does anyone know why this happen? is 18hrs really too soon?? I have never wait 18 hrs before, nevermind 24....But after going thru these last 2 withdrawls trying to back on the shit, Id rather feel any WD i ever have from anything for 24hrs before dosing....In all Honesty i just started feeling better after around 32 mgs.... still a little achy and my eyes are not pinned at all, palms still sweaty.. Just so weird, thats why i joined this forum....over 5 yrs ive never had bad reactions to my subs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this sucks sooo badd for alot of reasons lmao...maybe its for the good...gives me all the more reason to stay true to my recovery...


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:33 pm 
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Sorry to hear about your issues man but you have to be in moderate withdrawl for the sub to really take hold. Even mild withdrawl will risk it. If you take it before being in withdrawl you can go into what you went into yourself.


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