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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:24 pm 
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Hello guys. I'm Z!G and I'm 23 years old.

First a little background on my addiction to suboxone.

At first...I was using Oxys...loved the high..but was too damn naive to realize what exactly I was doing to myself.
So I had been doing Oxys for about 8 months..I knew I had to do something...Sony then discovered suboxone.

It basically saved my life at the time..but due to responsibilities...every time I tried to stop....I couldn't take it. I kept using.

Now where I am now...about 3 years later of suboxone addiction.
I have absolutely no desire at all to get "high" or feel euphoria. I just take enough to where I can function just fine.

My daily dosage *was* 4mg a day for 3 months...I tapered down quite easily to 2mg a day..which is where I'm at rite now as I'm writing this.

Since I discovered how much *harder* it can be to just stop...as opposed to tapering down slowly...that is what I'm trying to do now. Apparently from what I have read..suboxone has a physical binding affinity of 75% at a daily does of 2mg. The idea is to lower this so called "binding affinity" as low as possible before completely stopping.

I have discovered this supposed "perfect sub taper" method.
This method is as follows:

Month # 1:
Day 1= 2
 Day 2= 2
Day 3= 2
Day 4= 2
Day 5= 2
Day 6= 2
Day 7= 2
Day 8= 1.5
Day 9= 2
Day 10= 2
Day 11= 2
Day 12= 2
Day 13= 1.5
Day 14= 2
Day 15= 2
Day 16= 2
Day 17= 1.5
Day 18= 2
Day 19= 2
Day 20= 1.5
Day 21= 2
Day 22= 1.5
Day 23= 1.5
Day 24= 1.5
Day 25= 1.5
Day 26= 1.5
Day 27= 1.5
Day 28= 1.5
Day29= 1
Day 30= 1.5

Month # 2:
Day 31= 1.5
Day 32= 1.5
Day 33= 1.5
Day 34= 1
Day 35= 1.5
Day 36= 1.5
Day 37= 1.5
Day 38= 1
Day 39= 1.5
Day 40= 1.5
Day 41= 1
Day 42= 1.5
Day 43= 1
Day 44= 1
Day 45= 1
Day 46= 1
Day 47= 1
Day 48= 1
Day 49= 1
Day 50= 0.5
Day51= 1
Day52= 1
Day 53= 1
Day 54= 1
Day 55= 0.5
Day 56= 1
Day 57= 1
Day 58= 1
Day 59= 0.5
Day 60= 1

Month # 3
Day 61= 1
Day 62= 0.5
Day 63= 1
Day 64= 0.5
Day 65= 0.5
Day 66= 0.5
Day 67= 0.5
Day 68= 0.5
Day 69= 0.5
Day 70= 0.5
Day 71= 0
Day 72= 0.25
Day 73= 0.5
Day 74=0.5
Day 75= 0.5
Day 76= 0.5
Day 77= 0.25
Day 78= 0.5
Day 79= 0.5
Day 80= 0.5
Day 81= 0.25
Day 82= 0.5
Day 83= 0.5
Day 84= 0.25
Day 85= 0.5
Day 86= 0.25
Day 87= 0.25
Day 88= 0.25
Day 89= 0.25
Day 90= 0.25

Month # 4
Day 91= 0.25
Day= 92= 0.25
Day93= 0
Day 94= 0.25
Day 95= 0.25
Day 96= 0.25
Day 97= 0.25
Day 98= 0
Day 99= 0.25
Day 100= 0.25
Day 101= 0.25
Day 102= 0
Day 103= 0.25
Day 104= 0.25
Day 105= 0
Day 106= 0.25
Day 107= 0
Day 108= 0
Day 109= 0.25
Day 110= 0
Day 111= 0
Day 112= 0
Day 113= 0.25
Day 114= 0
Day 115= 0
Day 116= 0
Day 117= 0
Day 118= 0.25
Day 119= ZERO!

I have not started the regimen yet..it is said you mut he down to 2mg a day before starting it..which is where I'm at..as soon as I gy more subs..I'm going to start at day #7 and do my best to follow the regimen exactly..which I feel extremely confident in doing..it's month 4 I'm worried about.

Has anyone here follows a regimen like this before? And if so...how well did it work?

Also..just to throw this out there. I'm completely out if subs as of today. I don't have med Sony have to buy them illegally...I tooky last piece today which is 1mg..and I feel *okay*...but not great..or exactly 100%.

So tomorrow...I'm screwed..as everyone I buy them from is out...
and it could be a few day til I can get some again...and the worst part is...I'm suppose to pretend I feel fine in front of my family for the best few days..god this sucks...


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:58 pm 
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We are both in the same situation. I found that taper method and logically, it sounds perfect. But for me, I don't have the patience to go that long, which is probably a bad thing. Even with my month-long taper schedule, I hate that it will take so long. I figure I will attempt my faster method and if I have too much discomfort, I will switch to the one you posted. I'm just really impatient right now. I've been on subs for over 5 years and while I'm grateful for being able to get on the right track from my addiction, I feel like I have been wronged in many ways by the subs.. More the drs but they go hand in hand for me.

I just have to keep reminding myself that my ultimate goal is to be completely sub/drug free and it doesn't matter how I get there. It may take longer than I had hoped, but I WILL get there! I'm hoping and praying you get there too!


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 Post subject: Taper Plan
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:11 pm 
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Welcome Z!g and one more for you too tdouglas.

Looking at the taper plan it seems okay but everyone alters any plan a little bit. The only thing I would add would be the drop from 1mg to .50 that is a 50% drop and too much IMO. The general rule of thumb is not to exceed 25% drops. On higher doses 10% drops work quite well with two weeks in between them. But hey, give it a try and see how you feel. Once you get down to really low levels then you start to feel slight w/d's coming on. The slower you go the less it will be. If you can get down to just micrograms then it shouldn't be too bad when you stop completely. Only an opinion from what I've read here, I have no personal experience with getting below 1mg.

And Z!g, when you are taking Suboxone, you are not addicted to it but do have a physical and mental dependence. Unless you are abusing your Sub then it is not an addiction like it was when using oxy's and such. You are in opiate abuse remission, to use my doctors phrase.

Keep posting both of you to let us know how it is going. Whatever you go through, post it, it will help others when they decide to taper and jump. (me too)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:01 pm 
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I have thought about doing a taper similar to this because some days I don't feel that I need quite as much as other days, and it just made sense to maybe try not taking as much on those days. That way, my total weekly amount would drop, but I wouldn't notice it, since I would be taking less on the days where I am feeling better and don't need as much sub. So my theory/taper plan was a little more random and not quite as structured as this one, but the same idea in general...that is when and if I do plan on getting off subs in the future. I am interested in knowing how it goes for you.

Also, just wondering, why does this plan say to take zero mg on day 71 instead of just going down to .25, like all of the other drops before it? It seems like that might make you want to go up in dosage by making you feel bad all of a sudden since you would be dropping to zero out of nowhere.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:51 am 
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That taper plan seems unnecessasarily complicated to me. When I tapered I just shaved off 0.2mgs every two weeks or so until I got down to like .2mgs and then I quit. I decided when to decrease based on how I was feeling, not some arbitrary (IMO) schedule.

But, if you're a person who likes a regimented process like that, it will probably be fine. I just don't understand the lower dose every 4th day process.

Good luck

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:23 pm 
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I think for me, this kind of a plan would make sense because it is hard for me to lower my dose and then stick to it the second or third day, because by then I start feeling crappy and end up needing to bump it back up, sometimes taking even more than my original dose. So if I just lower my dose every fourth day (or third, or whenever I don't feel the need for so much sub that day), knowing I can go back to my original dose if I feel yucky the next day, I would be taking a lower amount of sub overall for the week...which would eventually end up making it easier to go down to the next lower dose, and then the next lower dose, and so on.

Although, I don't think I could stick to such a rigid schedule. But since sub has such a long half life, I think this kind of taper makes sense, and I'm going to try it, without having a certain schedule of when to lower the dose. I'm just going to take less sub on the days that I am feeling good, and don't feel like I need it. Because some days, I still have energy and feel fine by the afternoon when I normall would take my 2nd dose, but I end up taking it anyway. So from now on, I'm going to hold off on taking the second dose on those days, or at least take a smaller 2nd dose, and see if lowering my weekly intake that way helps me get to a lower dose of sub overall.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:58 pm 
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That's the most complicated taper I've ever seen. I'll tell you a secret folks, this is not rocket science. Don't turn it into that. It's very simple. You have to make up your mind what you want, want it more than anything, and quit screwing around.

There's no free rides on the opioid express. It's going to involve some discomfort. That's the price we all pay. Going through all these complicated gymnastics is just putting off the inevitable. What is getting your life back worth? Suck it up, pay your tab, and move on. Don't keep wasting more and more time stuck in the planning stage.

I've been off sub for quite a while. It was extremely unpleasant, and worth evrything I had to go through 10 times over. Life on drugs is a half-assed excuse for living.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:36 am 
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People are different though, and for people who are more regimined (is that a word??) than others, this kind of plan might be the way to go. I know for some, tapers do not work, but we all know that the lower you taper, the milder the wd is, so if you can stick to a taper, why not give it a try? It doesn't have to be as strict as this one, but I would definitely try something similar to this if I were tapering.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:23 pm 
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Hello Z!G! I think this sounds like a great idea!!! If I do decide to taper, I think I'll give it a try. Best of luck to you in your efforts. I'd really like to know how well it works out for you. Please let us know??? I think I agree with everything that Taurus has said so there is no reason to repeat it...LOL, just know I am of the same mindset as she.

I sincerely hope that you are getting the support you need on this forum! It can be a great place eh? I love it!

Golden1, you said "I've been off sub for quite a while. It was extremely unpleasant, and worth evrything I had to go through 10 times over. Life on drugs is a half-assed excuse for living.'

I think that it is awesome that you were able to get off of suboxone when you wanted to, but I guess what I don't understand is why you think my life, or anyone elses life who is taking suboxone, is half-assed. I happen to think that my life of abusing painkillers every day was half-assed. This life that suboxone has enabled me to live, is so much better. In so many ways. One day, I may be ready to come off of subs. But in the mean time, I need to take care of the things that I used to use over. Once those are taken care of, and healthy coping skills are firmly in place, perhaps I'll look at tapering?? But my life, or anyone elses, certainly cant be generalized as "halfassed" simply because we are not at the same place as you. I wish you would just try to be a little kinder with your words when talking to people who are still on suboxone. I am happy for you and the fact that you were able to do what you felt necessary for you. Can't you just be content with us doing what we feel is necessary for ourselves? I don't know. I just don't understand the hatred and anger.

I hope that everyone has a great day!!!!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:29 pm 
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OH, one more thing Z!G-there is a thread at the top of the stopping suboxone section by Diary of a Quitter. It has a GREAT way of taking your dose down to even smaller increments with a liquified taper plan! I'll definitely incorporate that into it as well if I decide to taper. I'm sure you've seen it already, but just in case you didn't.....ok, bye!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:12 am 
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Golden1 wrote:
That's the most complicated taper I've ever seen. I'll tell you a secret folks, this is not rocket science. Don't turn it into that. It's very simple. You have to make up your mind what you want, want it more than anything, and quit screwing around.

There's no free rides on the opioid express. It's going to involve some discomfort. That's the price we all pay. Going through all these complicated gymnastics is just putting off the inevitable. What is getting your life back worth? Suck it up, pay your tab, and move on. Don't keep wasting more and more time stuck in the planning stage.

I've been off sub for quite a while. It was extremely unpleasant, and worth evrything I had to go through 10 times over. Life on drugs is a half-assed excuse for living. (emphasis mine)


That last line sounds an awful lot like you're telling people who are in suboxone treatment that their life is "half-assed". That's way too close to insulting and therefore I'm going to stop you right there and remind you of the rules. Respect the decisions of others, be it to gain recovery through suboxone, methadone, or abstinence. "Do not get into debating which is better." Is that statement not clear?

This is an official warning. Respect the rules of the forum from now on, please.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:05 am 
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I agree. It was a poor choice of words. I should have said "for me, life on drugs..." as that was my intention. I truly don't care if someone chooses to remain on Suboxone forever, if that's what they feel they need. It's none of my business, and I would support another addict in anything that ultimately leads to recovery.

My intention was to share what I've seen happen with hundreds of taper plans, including my own. We all fear withdrawal, as any sane person would. So we tend to plan and postpone; "I'll just find the perfect painless taper plan, or I'll use SAO's, Kratom, etc, or I'll wait until after the holidays/work assignment/Mayan cataclysm, ad infinitum. I believe the longer you stay in this mode of procrastination, false starts, infinite tapers...the more you beat yourself down, and the less chance you have of ever getting off the drug.

There is great power in decision and commitment. If you commit yourself with no bail-out clause, make a written plan, and FOLLOW that plan no matter what (especially how you feel from day-to-day) I believe you have a great chance of success. If you constantly adjust your dose during a taper based on how you feel daily or even hourly, you're doomed to fail. We addicts always think we need a little more for a little longer, but there's no end to that process.

Withdrawal pain is the price we addicts all pay for long-term abuse of narcotics. There's no express lane, no get out of jail free card. You just have to pay the price. Pain is temporary. It will not kill you. If you're ready to get off Sub, make a good plan and see it through. The worst thing you can do is start and give up, and go through all that misery for nothing. Or worse yet, never get around to starting at all.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:19 am 
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Golden1 wrote:
We all fear withdrawal, as any sane person would. So we tend to plan and postpone; "I'll just find the perfect painless taper plan, or I'll use SAO's, Kratom, etc, or I'll wait until after the holidays/work assignment/Mayan cataclysm, ad infinitum. I believe the longer you stay in this mode of procrastination, false starts, infinite tapers...the more you beat yourself down, and the less chance you have of ever getting off the drug.

There is great power in decision and commitment. If you commit yourself with no bail-out clause, make a written plan, and FOLLOW that plan no matter what (especially how you feel from day-to-day) I believe you have a great chance of success. If you constantly adjust your dose during a taper based on how you feel daily or even hourly, you're doomed to fail. We addicts always think we need a little more for a little longer, but there's no end to that process.

Withdrawal pain is the price we addicts all pay for long-term abuse of narcotics. There's no express lane, no get out of jail free card. You just have to pay the price. Pain is temporary. It will not kill you. If you're ready to get off Sub, make a good plan and see it through. The worst thing you can do is start and give up, and go through all that misery for nothing. Or worse yet, never get around to starting at all.


This is absolutely great advice!!!!!! It is so true that we will put it off as long as possible....and not just sub. Anthing that brings us a high or feeling of comfort. Well, maybe not all, but definitely me. I had a million and one taper plans, quit dates, and cold turkey regimens planned out in my active adiction. Hell, I"m going through it with quitting smoking RIGHT NOW. Tonight is it. Patch on my arm, and I'm not looking back. But the procrastination, and excuses not to do it, have been lurking around for the past ten years. And they were no more than that, excuses.

When and IF I ever decide that sub no longer helps my recovery, It will have to be something that is a quick taper (within reason) and done. I will have to suffer, and if that time comes, I will accept that.

Best of luck to everyone tapering and jumping!!! I know you can do it, if you put your minds to it!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:36 pm 
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I like that we are all getting along now but it's not that black & white with suboxone. We were not able to taper with our full agonist opiates, our drugs of choice but with the partial agonist buprenorphine many can and have done a long slow taper with minimal pain and jumped off at the end with minimal withdrawal. There is a much bigger grey area with suboxone. Not every one has the patience to take 8 months to go from 1mg to zero but some have and made it through. I'm not saying its a picnic but it's been done. Check out this thread: http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4357 it's when one of our taper and jump success stories came back a year later to update. It has details of what he did to get there, it's pretty inspiring and I hope anyone who ever wishes to come off bupe reads it.

Golden1, I respect your method too and agree that some people need that rigidity, I might even be one who knows. I've been pretty strict with my goals on my taper thus far and since I have some free me-time coming up in a few weeks I am jumping before I would have liked to but I will be off work with the place to myself for a few weeks and if I'm gonna be a cranky bastard, prefer to do it while my wife is away on business. I will be making a thread about it then when the fun starts :/ and I do agree that we have to pay the piper.

Thanks,
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:50 pm 
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Hey guys...really sorry about not keeping updatd. I'm sure that happens a lot around here.

Anyway....no...I didnt just say F-It and keep doing subs as I felt needed. I

I tried this taper method. And it worked great...until I got to a 1mg dose. Then I just could not get any lower then 1mg and would take an extra .5mg ever couple days just abou could actually have a day where I feel remotely productive.

But on that note...I'm struggling. I have not upped my does since tapering...well..occasionally I would take an extra sliver...but that is only twice a week at most.

I am now venturing into a new method I had recently discovered as I score net for anything that could possibly help me get thruogh this horrible place in my young 20-something life.

It's Kratom...

I'm very sure that a lot of u know exactly what I'm talking about. A leaf you buy in powder form..that has mild opiate effects...while in fact not being an actual opiate itself.

So my Kratom came in the mail last week..I waited til the day yet my last dose of sub to try it.
That last dose would be 3 days ago today.

I have to say...that if u didn't have this Kratom I would have probably bought some subs at this point.

It truly is making withdrawals bearable. when I compare to the last time I went 3 days off...it's defiantly much better.

The only thing that is really really bugging me..besides the usually hell..is not being able to sleep. But I am only taking enoug the feel somewhat comfortable...and belive...I don't feel that great...could only imagine if I didn't have this Kratom.

I assume I could probably take enough Kratom to sleep for a coupe hours...but I'm severely afraid that I'm going to become tolerant to Kratom. For this reason I stick to a mild dose of "OK" quality Bali Kratom...hoping it will avoid the speed of Kratom tolerance.

I know that I may very well feel Kratom withdraws when I quit taking Kratom...but from whatbi have read...it's no where near as bad...and is only 3 days..5 Max. That sounds more reasonable then just going thuogh 2 weeks of hell straight off subs with nothing.

I have about 6 days of Kratom left..and I know that my sub withdrawals will still be there at day 7,8,9,10. I'm just wondering how bad it's going to be.

My original plan was to get 10 days worth of Kratom..just do mouthing but Kratom or 10 days..then quit everything...but turns out I news to eat more Kratom then I thought to get to where I can stand the withdrawals...which only leaves 6 days...well..technically 3 now..sonim 3 days will be my 6th day off subs..and ill be out of Kratom...this day scares me...

But idk..I just wanted to fill whomever cared in. I'm sorry for posting this intricate method of tapering with intent to keep you updated..then not...I'm trilby sorry for saying your time. Really. But like I said...I couldn't get past 1mg...it was just too hard.

On .5mg I felt like I do now..3rd day off subs...with Kratom.

Im pretty stressed rite now..

Has anyone tried Kratom during about a week of withdrawals then quit Kratom? I'm cuurios as yo how I will feel on day 7...the day I wake up(or get out of bs I should say) and have no more Kratom..no suboxone.

I'm really truly trying to quit this shit..I just want ti be back to normal...

Well..sorry for ranting.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:46 pm 
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I was going thruogh my drawer looking for a needle(no no..a sewing needle:)) and I found what looks Luke a 1mg strip of Suboxone. shot man...I took it..now u feel good...fuck...wonder how much this 1mg will set me back. I was so relieved and so irritated at the same time..still am now. Now I just feel like shit about myself.damn.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:55 pm 
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Z!G it's no big deal. I was down to .3 mg just a couple weeks ago and did a 1 mg piece. It's fine. You will be able to go back to .5 tomorrow if you want and be fine. I will tell you this: I'm at .25 per day right now about (after going from 1 to .75 to .3 to nothing to .5 to .25 just all over the map...) and I feel like the first time I ever had an opiate -- a vicoden 750 12 years ago. I needed coffee just to stay awake. Seriously, it does not take the body (if you are like me..) too long to change your tolerance level with sub. Try .5 tomorrow. If it ain't doin it for you, do another .25 piece. Stay at .75, slowly work back to .5, it won't take long.


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Hey guys..just wanted to make an update.

I have been off Suboxone for 34 days....

I used Premium Bali Kratom, and it helped tremendously.

I ordered 250 grams, but they sent me 300 grams.

I just decided to keep dosing Kratom as needed, until the whil bag was gone.

This bag lasted about 20 days dosing between 3-8 grams every 6-8 hours...tho, near the end I never took more then 4 grams becuae I discovered by accident that if I take the Kratom with Orange Juice, that I could get the same effect from 4 grans as I could with 7 grams with just water.

By the time I finished the Kratom, I felt pretty good...until the next day...after I stopped taling Kratom, I had cold sweats that just would go away...for about a week. I could have ordered more Kratom, but I didn't, since the thought of deceloping a physical dependence to it scared the shit out of me...so I mentally prepared myself to just deal with Whatver discomfort I has after kicking Kratom.

Today is the first day I actually woke up and said to myself (hey, I actually don't feel so lethargic today". And I don't...

However the PAWS is still there, and I'm trying to find a way to beat this without any other drugs and eapecially without any opiate of any kind. I do take a Klonopin or a Xanax here and there, which helps a lot....but I'm also very paranoid about getting addicted to them too, so I only take them for when I'm socializing, or just feel really restless at night...which is an exaggerated problem for me.

The only thing that seems to make me feel good is going out and doing things...I just started working out and exercising and I'm retry sure that is helping a lot as well.

Next week im going to try a supposedly safe herb called Skullcap. It acts as a benzo if you take a decent dose of it...but from the research I read about it, if you take small amounts daily (about 1.5g) for a couple weeks (then stop for a couple weeks) it is suppose to drastically improve the functioning of your central nervous system (ya know? That system that opiate abuse slowly ruins?). I mean..that makes sense rite?

I have read that there are absolutely NO negative side effects using Skullcap this way...however there can be potentially some negative side effects
if one was to take large doses of Skullcap for "immediate" effects...but I'm not gonna do that.


Anyone have any experience taking American Skullcap in small doses every day?

If your someone who tried large doses of Skullcap, then your answer really won't be any help..., I think I already know what large doses of Skullcap do.

Thanks for reading....Z!G


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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