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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:54 pm 
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Hey guys. This is my very first post to this forum, a bit of back history about me. I was addicted to opanas. I was on 16mg buprenorphine daily for about 2 years, during the past year I have successfully tapered down to 0.25mg daily.

Well, I stayed at 0.25mg every morning and was fine and stable on that dose, then I jumped off suboxone at this dose. I made it until day 3. I have a rare esophagus condition called esinophilic esophagitus, I drank a bunch of kratom that morning and it irritated it and caused so much pain that I had to go to the Emergency Room. (Yeah, another 250$ bill, I wish I would have just suffered.)

I relapsed that night on 0.25mg of buprenorphine because I just couldn't deal with the esophagus pain on TOP of the withdrawals. I'm still in pain at this very moment. No doctors understand my condition and they all think I'm crazy.. I feel like I've failed myself and my family..

I have access to hydrocodone, which was not my drug of choice to begin with, I want to use them for the withdrawals. Will the 0.25mg dose of buprenorphine I took metabolize faster since I was 3 days clean?

And do you guys have any advice for me?

Thank you all in advance.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:30 pm 
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Hi Rex and welcome to the forum.

I'm not saying this to sound harsh or sarcastic in any way - You consider taking 0.25mg of Suboxone a relapse, and not "a bunch of kratom"? You didn't say if you were on the Suboxone films or not, but if you have access to them I would suggest tapering down to 0.125mg (1/16 of a film) and then stopping.

Are you doing this with the guidance of a doctor? And do you have any other recovery support? You will feel crappy for a while when you stop completely, and it's easier to stick to your resolve with the help of counseling or a support group.

I would absolutely stay away from the hydrocodone. Many addicts have relapsed using short acting opiates to get off of Suboxone. Same thing with kratom - it's not technically an opioid, but it acts on the mu opioid receptors, so it has the same effects and can be habit forming.

Wish you the best,
Lilly


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:44 pm 
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Thank you for the response..

I am not doing this with the help of a doctor, I am not saying this is all doctors, but the ones down here want a HUGE sum of money, and they are in the business of keeping you ON suboxone, not helping you get off. I have called numerous doctors that say they aren't willing to help me. I had to stop seeing my suboxone doctor because the price just became outrageously high and his knowledge of the drug seemed to be 0. I probably knew more about it than he did.. As we speak I'm still trying to find a medical professional to help me thru these withdrawals, I thought about psychiatry, but i'm not sure if they can prescribe medication.

I do consider the 0.25mg of suboxone a relapse. I was 4 days off of it.

The reason I want to use the Hydrocodone is to soften the landing even more.
Suboxone has a mean half life 37 hours, where as hydrocodone has a half life of 4 hours.

As for the Kratom.. I'm done with it. I think eating all of that plant material may have caused my esinophilic esophagitus to flare up, and it is ungodly painful. I really wanted to end my life a few hours ago.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:14 pm 
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Lilly makes a good point... maybe not you, Rex, but some people see Kratom as less of a 'drug' since it is (sort of) natural. We all know that morphine comes from the sap of a pretty little flower.

I don't think it is possible to taper off opioids with short-acting agonists, for psychological and chemical reasons. From the psych side, they are simply too hard to control. We THINK we are reducing the dose, but in reality we only wait, over and over, until the misery gets to the same unbearable point... and then use again. At least that is what I usually see-- and what happened years ago when I tried that approach.

From the neurochemical standpoint, the lack of activity in endorphin pathways causes neurons to initiate a cascade of activity that ends in formation of new opioid receptors. That cascade gains steam in the absence of activity in those pathways. But as soon as the activity in those pathways returns, that cascade is turned off. So even a couple hours of relief ends up causing days and days more of misery.

It isn't that the small dose of buprenorphine is 'metabolized' faster. The metabolism of buprenorphine stays the same. But with daily dosing, people build up a level of buprenorphine in the bloodstream, that goes down after a few days off the medication. So your relatively-isolated dose will cause a small 'bump' of buprenorphine in your bloodstream that will be metabolized fairly quickly.
Try to avoid getting down on yourself. We've all been in similar situations--- and we've all eventually come up against the limits of our control over opioids. In your case, the drugs are doing what they always do. The members of this forum will share what worked for them, and what didn't-- and I hope it helps you get through this hard place.

In general, people use buprenorphine for 1-5 years, until the cycle of use/withdrawal is extinguished, and buprenorphine becomes a drug of dependency, instead of a drug of 'desire'. At that point, tapering is still hard-- but not something that stirs up cravings for the drug. Maybe you are at that point already-- and if that is the case, your best bet is probably to choose the best time to be miserable for a month, and at that point, stop everything.

I agree that most docs know less about buprenorphine than their patients. But I don't think that most docs 'want to keep people on Suboxone'. I think that instead, the docs that work with buprenorphine have read the 8-plus studies that show that virtually all patients relapse after taking buprenorphine products for a year or less. Maybe I'm just being optimistic... but I don't think so.

Good luck!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:02 pm 
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Thank you Dr for your kind and encouraging response.

These forums are like a godsend to me with all the info i've been reading.

I read the one diary of the dude who was dissolving his strips and tapering down to MCG levels, he said his WD was super mild.

I'm about 4 days clean from sub now. I feel pretty crappy. I've been eating 1 5mg hydrocodone for withdrawal symptoms as needed, but i'm out now. I am going to try to push through this though.

Last night I didn't sleep at all, and my skin was so cold and clammy til I got up in the AM and went to work and re-hydrated and stuff.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:10 pm 
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You might want to see if you can locate some clonidine, a blood pressure med that is alternately used as a drug that helps ease withdrawal symptoms. Good luck!

Amy

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:44 pm 
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Amy's suggestion, Clonidine, is considered the gold standard for opiate WD symptoms, and many people here have gotten relief from it. It's definitely your best bet.
In the meantime, until you can get a script, you might want to try Imodium (loperamide) - it's otc. It's for diarrhea, but even if you're not having that issue right now, it can make you feel a little better. It binds to the opiate receptors in the gut, but doesn't cross the blood brain barrier. People report that it helps with peripheral (nervous system) symptoms. It's definitely safe to take for a few days.

Also, if you go to the doc to get Clonidine, you might ask for Vistaril (hydroxazine). It's for anxiety, and it's pretty weak compared to benzos, but it's very sedating and totally non habit forming. I was given liberal amounts of both loperamide and Vistaril when I was in detox.

I also watched a lot of documentaries on PBS in the middle of the night, lol.
Good luck - it takes time
Lilly

PS. obviously I'm not a doc, so these are just my non professional suggestions


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:54 am 
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rex? sorry, I didn't catch your name,
Something that will help to is Gabapentin(neurontin) for sleep and restless legs.
Hang in there
Happy


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:03 pm 
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Clonadine (sp?) and Vistaril are great detox meds, I agree. I was given that in my detox at an inpatient rehab and actually Vistaril in jail lol. However I think that using hydrocodone is a recipe for disaster, regardless if it was ur doc. That's just my opinion. I wish u lot's of success no matter what though, good luck :)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:13 pm 
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Hey Rex,

Yeah you just need to bite the bullet and quit all opiates to get through this. Like the Dr said, you need to go through withdrawal and feel like shit in order to heal and get better. The more you take pills, the longer it's going to last. So if you're serious about quitting do it, if not stay on subs.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:14 am 
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And hey, u should def take qom's advice, she stopped suboxone and is over the 100 day mark (yay). So if u have questions, she's a perfect person to ask.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:44 pm 
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First of all. Thank you guys IMMENSELY for all the support and kind words and advice. I was not expecting such a warm response. I am super thankful for suboxone, it helped me get my life back together and my priorities straight but it's been like 3 years, and it's time for me to move on.

Before I say anything I wanted to say that I do believe everyone is different, and what works for
everyone is different. I honestly believe in the science behind switching to short acting opiates. I really believe I have enough self control to not over do it. I don't even like hydrocodones, honestly.

You guys are VERY right about the Gabapentin, I tried it one night and it helped immensely with sleep and RLS. I will try and secure some of those from my doctor. I will do a bit of research on the other meds too. I have stocked up on pro-biotics, immodium, L-Tyrosine, Taurine, and a multi vit.

I just wanted to add that I was in a wreck over the past week.. It hurt my neck a little. I got prescribed some more hydrocodone enough for 30 days if I take them as prescribed. It's been 5 days since I've done a 0.25 piece that was a one time slip up due to being in pain. If it weren't for that one time slip up I think it'd be over 10+ days without sub. I've went through 36 hours of not sleeping and feeling like poop, the symptoms have tapered back to where I don't feel that bad as of now, but I have taken hydrocodones scarcely to help (and they do.) I also have tramadol if I feel that I need an even softer landing afterwards. I have to hold down a physically demanding job while going thru all of this, and thats why I think this method will work for me if I practice self control.

My metaphor for this method is it's like jumping out of an airplane. (suboxone), pulling the parachute. (hydrocodone.) and hitting the crash pad (tramadol) if needed. I want to walk awy from all of this, one day I may need pain medicines for legit pain and I want them to work. I often think of crazy things, like what if I was put in a direct survival situation and I had to endure withdrawal, would I survive very long? I have to at least TRY to walk away from my drug problem/dependence before I give up and say I can't do it.

If you guys are willing to support me, I'll keep a journal daily of my account, maybe it will even help someone else in the future. Is there a separate part of the forum to post a detox recovery journal?

Once again, you guys are amazing, thank you!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:49 pm 
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I feel you on having a hard job to do while going thru withdrawals. I am a single mother to two behaviourally challenged adolescent girls, plus I have a strenuous job I need to support all three of us. I did take ten days off with "a bad virus" but when I went back I still was very sick. But I got through it and so can you. Everyone may be different but did you read what suboxdoc wrote about your brain building new receptors? Taking opiates is actually hindering that process. If you'd like I can share some things that helped me.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:27 pm 
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You have a plan of attack and that is great. Do you have someone that can hold the Hydros for you. Out of sight, out of mind thing. Just knowing you have them around will help with this mentally or maybe it will be just the opposite though and you will be thinking about them all the time.
About 8 days in is probably when you will feel the worst. That is about when the Subs really are getting out of your system I think. If I am wrong, someone will correct me I'm sure.
Anyways,
Keep on Truckin'!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:14 am 
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I just wanted to update you guys. It's been a few days, more specifically it's been like 9 days since my last 0.25mg dose. I have been taking the hydros as needed. As I stated before if I didn't count that single 0.25 dose, it would have been closer to 14 or 15 days without suboxone. I think I'm at a point where I'm ready to stop taking the hydros now. I'm going to try and have my doctor call me in some gabapentin, those really seem to work well for my rls and insomnia. I'm going to lock the hydros up and try and start my journey of being completely opiate free now. Do you guys have any advice for me now? Do you think the worst is over with? If I can manage to sleep at least four hours a night I think I'll be able to push through this no problem.

I am not encouraging the use of other drugs but I do believe in the medicinal properties of marijuana, I have been taking 2 hits in the morning which really seems to help a lot. I miss the huge energy boost sub gave me but I'm ready for my body to start making it's own endogenous opiates now.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:39 pm 
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13 days off, no more hydrocodone. Mildly uncomfortable, not really bad at all yet.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:11 am 
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Thanks for updating us and let us know how you're doing in the next few days!

Amy

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:36 am 
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Good luck Rex. Some might say that the real challenge begins here now you're opiate free.


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