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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:56 am 
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I relapsed on heroin after being clean for 7 years about 6months ago. I tried once to induct on Suboxone, but ended up giving in. After going 18 hours after my last use I took 4mg as my MD advised. I didn't feel better, maybe a little worse...I'm not sure. So I took another 2mg a little while later and....NOTHING! I gave in and used.

I'm going to try to induct again and I'm terrified. I am so afraid it will make me sicker or not work at all. Any encouragement and support would be greatly appreciated. Advice would be great too.

I've got to do something. I cant go on living this way. I am miserable.

Thanks to all who respond!!

Tina


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:50 pm 
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Hey Tina. Welcome to the forum! You can do this. You just have to want it more than anything. I'll give you a few suggestions based on my experience with both Suboxone and Subutex. I've been an addict for about 15 years, and was on Suboxone for about 3 years at an extremely high dose of 24mg per day. I reduced on my own down to 2mg when I came to the forum here. I have sinced tapered my dose down to .50mg and switched to Subutex because I recently found out I'm expecting my first child.

What I would suggest you do is completely stop taking anything that makes you feel better so you can get yourself prepared for induction. The point is you want to be sick with withdrawals BEFORE taking that first dose of sub. You really need to be in moderate to severe withdrawals first, and then it's safe to induct.

You mentioned the last time you had waited about 18 hours since the last use, took the sub, and didn't feel well. I suspect you didn't wait long enough, and may have been on the edge of precipated withdrawals. Not entirely certain of that, but it sure sounds like you were. In my opinion there is a much better way than using a measure of "time" to be ready to induct. Some people are ready after 12 hours, some after 24, some 36, and some may take lots longer than that. Point is everyone is different, and it can become a guessing game as to when you are ready for induction. The best way to eliminate any guessing is to use what is called a COWS SHEET. That stands for Clinical Opiod Withdrawal Scale. What it does is provide you with a list of different symptoms, and gives a number score to each of them. Once you get to a score of about 15-20 or higher you know you are ready to induct.

Here is the link below for that COWS SHEET...
http://www.naabt.org/documents/cows_ind ... _sheet.pdf

It's best if you have someone else score you because as you get to feeling worse with symptoms it's very easy to want to score yourself higher than you really are at the time. Someone else will give you accurate scores. If you have no one then please make sure you score yourself honestly. It does no good to fudge on the score as you will only be hurting yourself. You may not have ALL the symptoms listed either. Makes no difference. Stop taking any drugs, go into withdrawals, and when you get to that score of 15-20 or higher then it's safe for induction. I used it, and so have several of my friends and it works perfectly if you score honestly! It takes as long as it takes to get to the target score. Might take 24 hours, might take 36 hours. That's why the COWS is so good, it eliminates any guesswork as I mentioned. There is no way I myself would ever induct without using it.

Also what I suggest is begin taking low doses of sub when you are ready. Maybe take 1-2mg at a time and wait about an hour between doses to give the sub time to work to it's full potential. If you need another dose after that, which you probably will, then take another 1-2mg dose and wait another hour or so. Keep repeating this process until you are completely stable and feeling good. You only have to do this one time if you do it right! There is no sense taking 12mg for example when 8mg gets you stable. Take the least amount possible is my suggestion.

It sucks to go into those withdrawals, but totally necessary. Once you get to the score needed and take that first or second dose of sub you will feel so good at that point. Not high, just as normal as possible. Then it's up to you or your doctor how long you need to remain on sub therapy. Some require it longer than others do. I needed it long term due to my addiction, and now it's time for me to get off it. You make your own decisions about that when the time is right.

That's my best advice and suggestions to you Tina. Hope this helps. I wish you the very best with the induction. Please post often and let us know how your doing. If you have additional questions just ask. Take care and good luck!

Karen xoxo


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:06 pm 
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Thank you so much, Karen, for replying. Can I ask you about the COWS? I am familliar with it and I am also an RN, but I'm concerned about using it because I dont get a lot of the symptoms on the list so I may be further along in withdrawal than my score accords. What should I do since this is the case?

Thank you so much for replying. I feel so alone in this.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:18 pm 
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I know how you feel Tina, I've been right where you are now. You can come here anytime and get lots of support as I have been so fortunate to receive. This is a Holiday Weekend so things may be slower than usual. Hang in there and others will post to you I'm sure of it.

About that COWS. I bet you will have more symptoms than you realize when you really begin feeling poorly. But as you said, you may not have all the symptoms. I guess if you do have very few of them then you will have no choice but to go by both time, and score.

You are the best judge of your own symptoms. And of course the longer you wait to take the first dose of sub the better. I would wait at LEAST 24 hours after your last dose of drugs. If you can go 36 hours it might be even better. That's why it's better to have someone else score you, they may recognize symptoms you miss. You will be sick, and feeling horrible and it's very easy to miss and symptom or two. I would try my best to get someone you trust to score you Tina. If not then wait as long as possible and you should be ok.

I"m not feeling too well right now, but I should be around if you have more questions. Never be afraid to ask, your not bothering me or anyone else. I am more than happy to help if I am on at the time!

Karen xoxo


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:28 pm 
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I remember the first time I was on suboxone, I started suboxone too early because nobody told me otherwise and I got super sick. Trust me. You'll know if it's precipitated withdrawal lol.

But.

This last induction I only waited about 12 hours or so after around a gram a day dope habit (iv) and didn't get sick at all and haven't craved opiates ever since... 2 years ago last may....

Good luck. Don't be afraid to go again. It's worth it when you get it right. Wait until you absolutely can't take one more minute and it will be fine. Like the last poster... Don't take anything at all so you know how bad you truly feel!

You'll get it!


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:40 pm 
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When I went got my first prescription...was it....3 weeks ago... I was taking 100 mgs of Percocet daily. My doc gave me 3 subutex tabs along with two weeks worth of suboxone. He told me to take my last Percocet...wait I *think* it was 12 hours..then one Subutux every 8 hours. Then I started the Suboxone film 8 hours after my last Subutex. I never had withdrawal at all. So...I don't know if that's normal but I get the impression that's how he does all his patients.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:34 am 
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Thanks everyone for replying. Yeah my doc said to wait 12 hrs as well but everything I read online says to wait longer. Idk?? I have a gram a day habit too!!(iv)

It's only been 3 hours after my last use and it is supposed to be the last one....but I'm starting to panic already!!! Just knowing that the WDs will be setting terrifies me. God I wish I could just get some methadone prescribed for home use.

I really don't know if I can do this. I know when the WDs start every time bc the first thing that happens is I start to smell this "smell" that I can't describe... And believe it or not that's one of the things I hate most....then the sweats start, and.....oh god, I'm scared.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:44 am 
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So. I know it's scary. We all can agree there.

Also. Oddly enough I know the smell lol. I think it's just our senses waking up fully. Seeming heightened.

Just push on and if you are having trouble getting any further, just take a small sliver. It's less likely to create pw.

My sponsor only waited like 4 hours, but took a small piece.

I wish I were there to help you put lol.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:08 pm 
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Thanks. I wish I had help too : (


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:07 pm 
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Pixie, I understand that you're extremely scared. I went through withdrawal for 48 hours before I was induced, but I was withdrawing from percocet and my doctor had given me some comfort meds to help. I've never experienced what you are experiencing. But there is one thing I know. Somewhere in you is the capacity to hold out a little bit longer than you think you can!

Keep writing to us today. We are here to help you! Moviemaker has given you some excellent advice. I think you are someone who initially is going to need more than 8 mg of sub. If you feel like turning to H in the process, take more sub! You can do this! You can see it through!

You are on the verge of turning your life around and going through this short amount of pain is worth it! Please try as hard as you can to see it through. We care about you!

Amy

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:50 pm 
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Thanks Amy, but if I turn to sub too soon I will feel worse...I don't want that. I know, I really want to turn my life around...I'm trying to hang in there. I'm starting to feel it...not too bad yet, but I feel it coming. I used last time at 730am...so it's now almost 4pm... That's 8.5 hrs. I going to try.
Thank to all...replays help me to not feel so alone.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:51 pm 
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Any- why did you have to wait so long-48hrs??


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:01 pm 
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My doctor asked me to be in withdrawals for 48 hours before induction, and at the time, I didn't know any better. He gave me hycosamine for stomach cramping and nausea, xanax for anxiety and clonidine for RLS, temperature fluctuations, etc. It never got horribly bad for me, but it was bad enough. I had spent a few weeks down to 60 mg oxycodone per day. At my height I was taking 100 to 140 mg per day.

I went into my doctor's office to be induced feeling pretty terrible. I left feeling on top of the world by comparison. When I say on top of the world what I mean is that I felt normal. But it felt so good to feel normal!

I later asked my doctor why he had me wait 48 hours when I didn't really need to. He said that he likes his patients to feel the transformation from terrible to awesome because it's such a boost psychologically. He might not do that with all of his patients, and it really depends on how addicted they are, but he thought I could handle it and I did. I'm actually glad it happened that way now that it's over.

This awfulness is going to be a distant memory to you soon! I'm not saying that I know how you are feeling. But I do know that it won't last forever. You're taking awesome steps to give yourself a better life. If I could help you through will alone I would. Just keep going!

Amy

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:43 pm 
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Thanks Amy. I'm trying... I'm over 12 hrs in now and actually not feeling too bad. I did take a clonidine and a Xanax so maybe that's why idk... I had to take SOMETHING tho bc I was panicking. I'm planning in waiting another 12 hours and then taking 12 mgbof sub...does that seem wise? Thanks for the support I REALLY appreciate it more than you know!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:39 pm 
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Go Tina!!!! I'm fairly sure your plan should work. From what I've seen others post 24 hours is enough time to withdraw. When I was induced I took 4 mg, waited 30 minutes, took another 4 mg, waited another 30 minutes and finally took 4 more. I left the doctors office on 12 mg. Later that night I felt bad again so I upped my dose to 16 mg. And that is where I stayed for 6 months or so.

Other than feeling a lot better, you might feel more tired than usual and maybe a bit foggy. I didn't, but some do. Stay with us and tell us how you feel after you get started.

You're more than have way there! You can do this!!

Amy

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:45 am 
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Hey pix, been following your thread. How are you doing this morning?
I didnt have a fear of induction. Why? Becuz i didnt know much about sub the first time.i waited 4 hours then took 3mgs and went to bed.. I awoke the next morning like a kid on xmas morning. Some say i was lucky,and perhaps i was. My guess is that id taken so little of my drug of choise the last few days that 3mgs did the trick..
So...hoping yours gos well. An alittle at a time maybe the way to go. Dr had givin me 12 mgs a day but the first 24 hours id taken 8. Then moved up to 12mgs the next day..bn at 6 for the last year....razor.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:04 pm 
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I'm wondering how you're doing too. Please update us!

Amy

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:17 am 
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So after waitintheough 27.5 hrs of excruciating withdrawal I finally went for it and took 4mg...it didnt do anything, and maybe made me feel a literal worse, but 1.5 hrs took another 4 MG...than still nothing... Took another 4mg an f hour or so later...on and on like that's ill I'd taken 25 MG for the day and still didnt feel better. Woke up this an and took another. Feel some better now but not out of withdrawals! Thought this stuff would take the withdrawals away? What am I doing wrong?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:36 am 
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Hi Tina,

Please don't take this the wrong way, but exactly HOW are you taking the sub? Are you placing it completely under your tongue and waiting for it to disolve the entire time you wait? Your not perhaps swallowing it are you?

The reason I ask is that you have already taken PLENTY of sub to get you out of withdrawals and feeling much better. Something is not right and if you are swallowing it that could explain it. I'm only asking Tina to make sure you are taking it correctly.

If I understand correctly you have taken a total of 28mg of sub. Is that right Tina?

How are you feeling right now?

Also maybe taking the xanax and clonidine kept you feeling better and you were not in enough of a withdrawal state to take the sub when you did? That is possible I guess. I know you were feeling horrible, but maybe not quite severe enough at the time to take that first dose. I'm just thinking out loud and trying to figure out why you aren't stable taking that much sub?

Let us know how your feeling now please. Any symptoms?

Karen


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:41 am 
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I think the first "clue" you gave is after you took that very first dose of sub, you mentioned it maybe made you feel worse??? Perhaps the clonidine and xanax did make the difference after all and you weren't in enough of a withdrawal state to begin the sub??


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