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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:19 pm 
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I've been taking suboxone since it first came out, been over 8 years.
First couple years were pretty good. I had a high opiate tolerance, I ended up on 24mg of sub a day, went to college & got straight A's for 2.5 years.
But then some problems arose pretty quickly, within a week, maybe days. I just started to feel "not right". Hard to explain, but I was starting to suffer from anxiety, fast heartbeat/palpitations, high BP, & an odd form of vertigo where all day it just feels like I'm on a boat. Some days the waters are calm, others they are rough, but I'm always "on water". & that is screwing with my life. Now I'm on klonopin to treat the anxiety, BP meds, & vertigo meds. All that just to keep these issues from bothering me even more (& believe me, they do get worse, much worse, without those meds).

However, at the time these things started, I did not expect suboxone to be the problem. I had ear problems as a kid & couple serious vertigo spells, so I figured I just had an ear/balance thing that could be corrected, & if that was fixed then maybe the other issues would go away with it.
Anyhow, under these conditions I couldn't sit through class & had to drop out of school.
Now, it is 2011, & that was many years & many doctor visits ago, & we still don't have an answer. I've been to neurologists, cardiologists, hearing & balance centers, & other specialists trying to figure out what is wrong with me. However, nothing is turning up that should be giving me problems like I'm having.

These problems have kept me jobless & lifeless for the past 6 years now. It is hard to even leave my house, or when I do its always a struggle to go somewhere & enjoy myself, when the whole time I'm just trying not to fall over and/or have a panic attack. I'm pretty sick of it. & the past 6 years were supposed to be the prime of my life, I'm 32 now, & something needs to change... soon.

A couple years ago I started to think that suboxone could be causing the problem, so I started lowering my dose & got down to 4mg per day recently. But this didn't really help. In fact things got worse for me. I have legitimate pain issues. Even at 24mg suboxone didn't help a ton for pain, but I guess I'd consider it tolerable enough. I just suppress a lot of my pain which probably isn't good (upper back, neck problems from car accidents & I also have arthritis in my back & crohn's disease & get nasty headaches in the back of my head, & I have lots of oral pain).

So while my issues didn't clear up after lowering my dose, I was now dealing with more pain.
At my last doc visit a month ago (suboxone doc), I told him that perhaps suboxone is causing me problems. I've had at least a few docs tell me that this is a likely place to look, because we've weeded out any other things that could be causing these problems. Overall I'm pretty healthy on paper (minus the pain issues), but in reality I'm a mess & nobody knows why.

Anyhow, I tell my sub doc that I'd at least like to find out if suboxone is causing problems, first by trying subutex for a week or so just to see if I feel better, in case it is the narcan in the suboxone that I'm having a bad reaction to.
But as soon as I mentioned this, I swear I saw horns come out of my doc's head, the room turned red, & I thought I was gonna be sent directly to hell!!!
He basically laughed at me, as if I just asked him to prescribe me some heroin. Looked at me like I was crazy. WTF? He said that it is impossible that the naloxone could be causing me problems, & that my problems were likely all in my head. Oh, & he told me that I "looked" fine.

He said that the naloxone could only get into my system if I were shooting it up, which I know is the reason it is put in there. & for 8 years, I've done nothing but piss clean every month. I never have complained, I've never "lost" a script, I've been a perfect patient. So if I don't quality for giving subutex a shot, then who the hell does?

I even told him, I just want to try it so I can have the peace of mind to know if that is the problem or not, & if it isn't (after a week or two of trying it), then I'll happily go back on the suboxone. After all, its the EXACT same drug. Yet he flat out told me that he doesn't trust me, he talked about how subutex can be abused more easily. Basically telling me I can't be trusted. This guy isn't my original doc. My original doc stopped their suboxone program 2 years ago, so I had to find this new doc, & he's the only one within an hour drive from me that takes my insurance. My original doc probably would of helped me out because he knows my story & history.

Anyhow, I left that appt in awful shape, since I was feeling so bad he doubled my sub back to 8mg, but I've been there done that, I know that won't make me feel much better & it didn't. I was made to feel like a junky that day, I was not treated like a unique patient. He just put his blanket rule on me. He only prescribes Subutex to pregnant women. Yet he told me that naloxone doesn't get in your system when sub is taken properly. So why would he prescribe Subutex to pregnant women if this is true? Answer, he just thinks I'm another one of his junky patients, that is all.

I am a unique patient in many ways. Am I just a typical junkie on suboxone? Eh, that is debatable. & it is a long story that I won't get into here. I feel like I'm more of a pain patient who truly benefited from pain meds, but I was mishandled by doctors, badly. I eventually found docs to get me back on oxy's. I spent years on high doses of oxy's. But once they got such a bad name, & nobody would prescribe anything but vicodan, that of course led to some issues. By this point, I just never felt right unless I had oxy's. Is this bad? Even if they aren't abused? I don't think so. But not all docs would get on the same page & it left me a mess.

After a few years of taking oxy's & not doing well when not taking them, even after 6 months of taking nothing at one point, that day just never came where things went back to normal. My pain issues combined with perhaps damage of my body's natural pain killers I guess was the problem.
I was told about Suboxone, I started it & was doing OK (where this post started). While it didn't help too much with pain, I was at least functional, well for a couple years at least.
Is it normal for suboxone to start causing issues after a couple years? IDK, but I'd like to find out, cuz spending the past 6 years in this state just isn't gonna work anymore.

I wish I could just quit suboxone, but between my pain & me just never feeling right when not on opiates, the plan was for me to stay on sub the rest of my life if need be. Which is why at least trying subutex seemed like a great option that even if it didn't help it could really set my mind at ease.
I have my next appt tomorrow, & I'm gonna keep saying the same thing, that I need to try something different cuz life really sucks. I've suppressed the torture I've been going through for years, my body is now screaming for change.

Now, what do I do?
The following day I went to my family doc, told him how worried I was. He told me he also thought suboxone could be the problem. After all, it was the only medication I was on when these problems arose almost 6 years ago out of nowhere. All of my docs feel the same way, except for the one who's opinion counts, the sub doc.
I asked if my family doc could switch me to subutex or something along those lines. He said he wasn't really allowed to get into prescribing that sort of stuff & getting involved with the whole suboxone thing, & that he just wasn't comfortable dealing with it.
However, he set me up with an appt for a doc that deals with these kinds of meds. A local pain doc.

Interesting. Given my issues with suboxone, & with going without opiates also not being a real option, I'm not sure what will happen here. Maybe he can prescribe subutex, see how I do. Maybe he will want to get me back on oxy's if it isn't a big deal. Since I'm now much older & more beat up by life & have even more documented issues, maybe these days getting back on that stuff won't be so hard & isn't a bad idea.
I'll flat out tell him my story, about how I'm opiate dependent (though probably for the right reasons), like it or not. & that my tolerance for opiates is & likely always will be sky high.

At this point, I just want some quality of life. After recently watching an uncle die of cancer & his life being cut short, it made me more frustrated that I haven't been able to enjoy my life for years.
If that means I need to go back on a heavy duty pain killer without narcan in it, then so freakin' be it. I'd like to be able to go to a party, go on dates, have a connection with the outside world, not have to live with my parents at 32, have a job, have kids, & all that good stuff.

Every day & night right now is such a struggle. I expect my appt with the sub doc tomorrow to be like the last one. I'll ask again to try subutex, he will make me feel like a junky, I leave.
My appt with the pain doc can't come soon enough. It is still well over 2 months away. I'm not sure I can keep on like this until then. I'm mad that I just lost another summer to these issues I'm having. I was really hoping to feel better by now. But after 6 years of seeing every other type of doc, It has come to this, all arrows pointing at suboxone as the culprit for screwing up my life.
I hate to blame suboxone because I used to do so well on it, but it is what it is. Its been screwing with me & I don't know why. I just hope when I see my pain doc & tell him that I'm on suboxone that he also doesn't treat me like some active junky & push me out the door with a script for ibuprofen.

After writing all that, I guess I'm just curious if anybody else is having issues like this. Any issues that pop up after a couple years of being on sub. If so, what are they? Anything similar? Is nalaxone getting into my system, no matter how properly I take the subs? & I've been extra careful lately not to swallow even a drop of my saliva as my strips melt. But I feel like it is still getting in my system, & from I've read, the side effects of naloxone pretty much read like a list of all my issues. Coincidence? IDK, but I hope I find out soon.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:08 am 
Where do you live? You have pain, I get that and I understand that you will need something for pain control. Have you ever tried to taper suboxone to a dose that may control your pain but decrease the side effects? Please ask for Hatmakers advice as she has pain and is on a low dose program that controls her chronic pain. She has great advice.

I don't think the naloxone is your problem, but find a subutex doc if need be. Do it tomorrow...... Dump the other guy.

Please read, this easy read by Heather Ashton about benzo (Klonopin) addiction and the symptoms and problems associated with it. This may well be adding to your problem. See below. I know because I have been there and your cumulative symptoms sound very much like when I was on klonopin and opiates by prescription. About 90% of the time, they find nothing wrong, it is all related to the meds, gaba and opiate receptors in the brain.

Good luck, it sounds like you are going through hell and I am so sorry!
robin

http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/index.htm


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:44 am 
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Fairrobin wrote:
Where do you live? You have pain, I get that and I understand that you will need something for pain control. Have you ever tried to taper suboxone to a dose that may control your pain but decrease the side effects? Please ask for Hatmakers advice as she has pain and is on a low dose program that controls her chronic pain. She has great advice.

I don't think the naloxone is your problem, but find a subutex doc if need be. Do it tomorrow...... Dump the other guy.

Please read, this easy read by Heather Ashton about benzo (Klonopin) addiction and the symptoms and problems associated with it. This may well be adding to your problem. See below. I know because I have been there and your cumulative symptoms sound very much like when I was on klonopin and opiates by prescription. About 90% of the time, they find nothing wrong, it is all related to the meds, gaba and opiate receptors in the brain.

Good luck, it sounds like you are going through hell and I am so sorry!
robin


The only med I was taking when this stuff started was suboxone, about 2 years into it. So I know it isn't these other meds, which were only given to me just to take the edge off of these symptoms I started having when ONLY on the suboxone.
How many people have been on suboxone since the beginning to now like I have, I'd really like to hear from those people.

I've read a number of stories of people switching to subutex, & in some cases it making a huge difference. & worst case scenario it doesn't help at all, but it certainly can't hurt not having naloxone in your body.
I've also read some stories, maybe here or elsewhere, that almost exactly share my story, even down to where odd things started to happen a couple years into suboxone, & to where people have odd balance/vertigo issues. Now I'm just curious how common those stories are.

I live in PA. How do you find a Subutex doc? Does anybody around here have a list of docs that will prescribe it? Just suboxone docs are hard enough to find, I have to drive 1 hour just to the one I have b/c he is the only one who takes my insurance.
I used to have to drive 2 hours to my sub doc, so that is actually an improvement. If I could find a subutex doc within 2 hours of me that would be great. Hell I'd drive a day just to be able to try this out for a couple weeks. But is there a way to find out who will & won't prescribe that? Or do I just set up an appt with another suboxone doc, wait a few months for that, then drive a couple hours & just cross my fingers that he is a guy that is OK with prescribing subutex? UGH. & btw I don't have the best luck!
This is why, in my town here, my only real option is seeing the pain doc & seeing what he can do along these lines. At least he lives down the street.

This is a tough situation, because really I am on suboxone now because it was an easy option to fill my opiate receptors & maybe help a little on pain, without going through the hassle of asking docs for pain meds. Not for cravings or anything like that. Simply, if I didn't have pain & my body's natural pain killers worked properly, I absolutely would not be on suboxone or need to be. Even with all the stuff going on with me I'm not craving a high of any sort. No, I just want fixed, normal.
As far as drug cravings, I don't have them I don't think, never really did have cravings that weren't me just wanting physical pain relief.

I don't know if subutex will help, but again I sure would feel a whole lot better if I could just try it & find out (mentally would be a huge relief even if it didn't help), plus it sure can't hurt to NOT have naloxone in my system. I've spent the past 5+ years taking the time to rule out every other possible thing, suboxone is all that remains on the list of obvious things to check. & I'm curious how long I would need to take subutex (clear out any nalaxone) to see if it does make a difference. Right away? Days? Weeks? Months? All I know is that if I don't get these issues sorted out soon, I seriously worry about my mental health. How much longer can I put up with this stuff, on top of being in pain, before I mentally break.

Thanks for the reply, btw. Good to know people are out there & willing to try to help. I've only been listening to my know it all doc's for years, I feel like its good to reach out to people who are actually on these meds & know things firsthand.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:01 am 
start a new thread asking for a good subutex doctor in your part of PA......also pick Hatmakers thoughts ok?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:00 am 
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Hi robx46 and welcome. Bear with me as I try to go through your post and hit on the main highlights of what you're saying.

So you're thinking that after having been on suboxone two years without problems that all of a sudden you started having side effects from it? The chances of that happening are slim to none. A medication wouldn't just stop working or all of a sudden start giving you negative effects. As for your pain, you've obviously learned by reducing your dose that the sub actually WAS helping it (otherwise the pain wouldn't have increased when you lowered your sub dose).

As for finding a doctor that will prescribe subutex, any doctor with the DATA 2000 waiver to prescribe suboxone can also prescribe subutex. But as you learned, many doctors simply won't do it. Pushing it with your doctor likely will only make the doctor more suspicious and probably won't get you anywhere. I would also suggest you not quit your current sub doc until you have another one lined up.

I would also caution you about going back on any full agonists. I'm sure you can imagine what might happen - you could end up right back in active addiction where you were before.

I don't know if I addressed all of your concerns, at least to your satisfaction, so please clarify what other questions you may want answered.

Lastly, I am so sorry to hear you're feeling so shitty. I just don't think it's related to the suboxone - unfortunately, I can't say what it is.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:21 am 
My doctor switched me to subutex and even though my symptoms are better, I still suffer from anxiety, headache and nausea. Hopefully subutex will work for you. I will have to say that I experienced blood pressure problems as well as other side effects on the generic subutex Roxanne brand. FYI. As far as my symptoms go, I'm beginning to think that Klonopin may be the culprit. Got a call to my doctor on this.

Hope you feel better!
Sherry


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:30 am 
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Hey robx46,

Are you spitting your saliva out after you're done dosing your Suboxone? We've had several people on this forum who complain of headaches after they start on Suboxone and we usually advise them to spit out their saliva after they dose to get rid of as much Naloxone as they can. Many of them have reported that their headaches go away after doing this. It's not a perfect way to get rid of the Naloxone, but you could give it a shot. I'm not quite clear on if you're already doing this, you kind of alluded to it, but I figured I'd go ahead and suggest spitting jsut in case you weren't.

Next, how long do you keep the Suboxone pill or film in your mouth. Some people get proper absorption of the Buprenorphine very quickly, some people take a little longer to get the Buprenorphine absorbed. Here's what I'm trying to get at, if you absorb your Buprenorphine quickly then there's no reason to keep all those juices in your mouth for 10 or 20 minutes like some people do. All that's doing is giving the Naloxone more time to be absorbed into your system. I used to only keep the pill in my mouth for 3 or 4 minutes and my absorption was fine.

Lastly, there have been several of us that notice some issues with Suboxone after we've been on it for a while. It seems, for some of us, that somewhere around the 2 or 3 year mark we start to notice some things changing, but I have never heard of symptoms anywhere near as severe as the ones you're presenting with.

Oooops, one more thing. I wonder if you may have developed some sort of allergy to any of the fillers in the pill?? You could try switching to the films and see if your symptoms improve, or if you're on the film, switch to the pills. Your doctor should have no issue whatsoever switching you between the pill or the film.

Good luck and I hope you're able to figure something out.

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Last edited by Romeo on Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:33 am 
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Hi Robx46, first I want to say that I am so sorry you are going thru this. I can't even imagine the frustration you must be feeling. I just wanted to throw something out there. You said you get a lot if oral pain and headaches. Have you ever been checked out to see if you have TMJ? The best Dr to see for this is an oral/maxiofacial surgeon. I have TMJ and get headaches, oral pain and vertigo. I am not sure if you have already looked into this but i think you should. I agree with Hat that it is unlikely that after being on Sub for 2 years it would start causing these problems. I hope you can get a diagnosis, nobody deserves to have to live like that.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:54 pm 
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All good points & comments, I'll get to them all here, & thank you guys for reading all my crap, I get long winded with this stuff, maybe because I feel its important to not leave out details....

@ hatmaker
I've been on suboxone 8 or whatever years, these problems started about 2 years in. Yes, I do think it was the suboxone, somehow, or I'm certainly leaning that direction. I never used to think that, but after ruling out all these other things, that is just all that is left.
I've read stories of other people who started have sensitivities to sub after this amount of time. I don't think it is that unusual for any med to do that, it is the definition of long a long term side effect.
At the time though, I refused to blame suboxone, cuz I was doing well on it. 24mg, but controlled pain, straight A's in college, all that good stuff.
& maybe it isn't the suboxone, but as I've said, I just need to find out. First step, eliminate naloxone, see what happens.
Hopefully I get the chance soon to do that.

I'm interested as to the whole lower is better thing. I can kinda see it, but then I can't. I was doing my best, pain wise, at 24mg, which most of my years was where my dose was. I do think you plateau around 16mg or 24mg where you have diminishing returns on any positive effects. It was when I weened down to 4mg & messed 2mg that I had to put a stop to it. But I will say that my pain was probably as well controlled on 16mg as it was 24mg, & possibly 8mg as well. So there is that plateau perhaps as far as pain killing benefits, & that plateau could be different for everybody.

Maybe somebody who spent 6 years on 4mg can get relief from 2mg or 1mg. Though for myself, spending the years on 24mg, I get the same experience with 8mg or 16mb. Even though I bumped back up to 8mg last month (from months at 4mg), I wouldn't say it is less effective with pain, but it is debatable how much it has helped. I don't think going to 8mg hurt or helped, just blah.
I am on films, so one nice thing is that at 8mg I don't have to cut strips, just tear it open & pop it in. I wish they made 4mg strips though.

@sherryneil, good to hear that things somehow got at least a little better. What did you tell your doc to get him to switch you to the tex?

@ Romeo!
You just nailed what could be a very important topic, that I totally failed to mention above & one that I want to discuss. & this is where I hold out some hope that time might heal some of these things.
When I first got one sub over 8 years ago, I was told to spit it out but not really told why. Or I should say, the nurse told me to spit if saliva built up to where I needed to spit, but otherwise hold it in.

Well, it didn't take long before I got lazy with my suboxone. I just swallowed everything & it didn't seem to hurt me, so I got into the habit of just swallowing, just thinking that whatever I was swallowing probably wasn't hurting or helping. But when I got switched to films a few months back, using this same method, I was starting to feel sick very quickly. Like I would get a weird rush (but not a good one) to where I felt a little nausea & my face got kinda numb. Odd. I'll bet you that was the damn naloxone.
Why? Because for the past 5 weeks or so, I went back to holding my saliva, then spitting it all out (& rinsing my mouth out) when I felt the strip totally disolved. I won't say this odd rush/sickness totally went away, but I think I can safely say it definitely decreased.

As for my increased pain, I don't think that has anything to do with suboxone, I just have more pain. I'm not getting younger, & I was told when I was 18 or 19 that I might be spending my life dealing with pain, & meds... for a reason. Most frustrating with suboxone is not being able to deal with breakthrough pain. Its not like I can take a percocet (or 5) for a pain relieving boost, I might as well take a sugar cube instead.
I feel like on subutex (not dealing with naloxone), maybe I could have small doses set aside for the bad days, bad moments, to go along with my base dose.

Back to the whole saliva swallowing thing.
For 6 years I was swallowing 24mg of sub, which means I was swallowing 6mg of naloxone every day for 6 years (then the 2 years I was on lower doses, that still probably wasn't good).
Maybe after 2 years of doing that, it really caught up with me, & I started having these symptoms. It is tough for me to now swallow, just my gag reflex or whatever. & you've said how doing this has helped other people. In a way this makes me more pissed that I'm on suboxone & not subutex after all this time, knowing that the naloxone can cause problems.

I would like to know more about how to get maximum absorption.
When I take my strip, I don't talk or move my tongue. Often times a half hour can pass before I feel that strip dissolved. But if I talk or move my tongue a little to get a little saliva working under there, then it can dissolve in minutes.
So, yes sometimes I keep those juices in my mouth for 40 minutes because that is how long it takes for the strip to dissolve, but usually after 20 minutes I'll move my tongue a bit to help get it dissolved.

I'm baffled as to how your pill dissolved in 3 to 4 minutes. When I was on the pills it might take an hour. WTF?
When I take my strip, should I move my tongue around to speed things up? I worry about doing that because I might not be getting all of the bupe if I force things.
Maybe I will make an effort to get things spit out quicker.
& since it took 2 years of me swallowing that might of brought on my issues... maybe it will gradually take time with no swallowing for me to feel better?
Most days I actually am feeling a little better since not swallowing. I still have a ways to go though.

Lastly, you say some people have issues, even if minor, after 2 or 3 years. Do these people switch to subutex? If so, are the results better?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:58 pm 
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Breezy_Ann wrote:
Hi Robx46, first I want to say that I am so sorry you are going thru this. I can't even imagine the frustration you must be feeling. I just wanted to throw something out there. You said you get a lot if oral pain and headaches. Have you ever been checked out to see if you have TMJ? The best Dr to see for this is an oral/maxiofacial surgeon. I have TMJ and get headaches, oral pain and vertigo. I am not sure if you have already looked into this but i think you should. I agree with Hat that it is unlikely that after being on Sub for 2 years it would start causing these problems. I hope you can get a diagnosis, nobody deserves to have to live like that.


Forgot you, breezy.
Very good thinking about the TMJ. Though this was already another thing I considered, since I've had the last 5-6 years to research everything that could be wrong with me.

I went to a physical therapist to get checked for TMJ, & he said I didn't have it. I was surprised that I didn't because my symptoms can so closely match TMJ. I wonder if I should get checked again? Maybe have an actual doc check? It just seems like whenever I find something that might be the answer to my problems, I look into it & somebody tells me "nope, try again".

Maybe this is something I can revisit. There are even more symptoms I have that people with TMJ might have, that I didn't even mention here. I'm gonna read up on it again, its been a few years.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:48 pm 
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Hey robx,

Yeah, you're certainly not the first person I've heard of that has to hold the pill or the film in their mouth for quite a while. I don't know why mine would dissolve so quickly, I guess I just have a lot of spit in my mouth?? I remember once or twice a 2mg pill would get lodged towards the outside of my tongue and it would take forever for it to dissolve, but all the other times, I would plop that pill into the deep area under my tongue.....like all the way back to the base of the tongue and within minutes it was gone.

The reasoning behind spitting instead of swallowing is because Naloxone is apparently absorbed much better in the stomach than through the mucous membranes in our mouths. But with the amount of time you have the film in your mouth, I'm guessing you're getting absorption of the Naloxone too. Many thought that Naloxone was not absorbed at all through mucous membranes, but I just pulled this off of Wikipedia: "Use of a wedge device (nasal atomizer) attached to a syringe to create a mist delivering the drug (Naloxone) to the nasal mucosa[2] may also be utilized..."....apparently Naloxone is absorbed through mucous membranes???

If I were you, I'd experiment with getting the film to dissolve quicker and spitting your saliva out quicker. This will help eliminate the Naloxone as a possible cause to the problems you're having. Talk or move your tongue a little bit if that helps get some saliva in there to dissolve the pill/film quicker. I don't know if any of this will work, but it's all I can think of?

You asked about the people who seem to get issues around the 2 or 3 year mark. Most that I can remember end up quitting Suboxone altogether or they cut their dose back drastically. Some just put up with the side effects and keep moving forward with their Suboxone therapy. I don't remember of any of them getting switched to Subutex.....most doctors will NOT switch their patients to Subutex......unless you can somehow get yourself pregnant, but I'm pretty sure you're a guy, so if you did get pregnant, all these symptoms you're having would suddenly be the least of your concerns!! :D

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Romeo wrote:
Hey robx,

Yeah, you're certainly not the first person I've heard of that has to hold the pill or the film in their mouth for quite a while. I don't know why mine would dissolve so quickly, I guess I just have a lot of spit in my mouth?? I remember once or twice a 2mg pill would get lodged towards the outside of my tongue and it would take forever for it to dissolve, but all the other times, I would plop that pill into the deep area under my tongue.....like all the way back to the base of the tongue and within minutes it was gone.

The reasoning behind spitting instead of swallowing is because Naloxone is apparently absorbed much better in the stomach than through the mucous membranes in our mouths. But with the amount of time you have the film in your mouth, I'm guessing you're getting absorption of the Naloxone too. Many thought that Naloxone was not absorbed at all through mucous membranes, but I just pulled this off of Wikipedia: "Use of a wedge device (nasal atomizer) attached to a syringe to create a mist delivering the drug (Naloxone) to the nasal mucosa[2] may also be utilized..."....apparently Naloxone is absorbed through mucous membranes???

If I were you, I'd experiment with getting the film to dissolve quicker and spitting your saliva out quicker. This will help eliminate the Naloxone as a possible cause to the problems you're having. Talk or move your tongue a little bit if that helps get some saliva in there to dissolve the pill/film quicker. I don't know if any of this will work, but it's all I can think of?

You asked about the people who seem to get issues around the 2 or 3 year mark. Most that I can remember end up quitting Suboxone altogether or they cut their dose back drastically. Some just put up with the side effects and keep moving forward with their Suboxone therapy. I don't remember of any of them getting switched to Subutex.....most doctors will NOT switch their patients to Subutex......unless you can somehow get yourself pregnant, but I'm pretty sure you're a guy, so if you did get pregnant, all these symptoms you're having would suddenly be the least of your concerns!! :D


I tried this today after I posted earlier. Took my sub an hour ago, & I did try to move my tongue a little to let some saliva slip under my tongue to help dissolve it. I've noticed especially since taking the films, that the films have a certain taste while the bupe is still in your mouth (kinda tangy/sour, you all know it). So I pretty much waited until that taste went away, which with moving my tongue a bit every minute or so, still took about 15-20 minutes, then I immediately spit it all out. So I at least got it all out a good 10 minutes quicker than usual. I just hope I got all my bupe in me.
I'd still like to know more about if its OK to speed up the process. Cuz even on the official suboxone site they mention the films should dissolve in 5 or 6 minutes. So do that mean its OK to speed things up if its taking longer? IDK.

I know about the naloxone absorption, I read about that as well, which is what started these concerns. They say that even when spitting it all out that its pretty much impossible to not get some naloxone in your system, & it doesn't take much of it to cause side effects.
But I suppose this is an imperfect science, but I guess its better than people shooting dope.

Yeah my doc also mentioned that he only gives the tex to pregnant women. But doesn't that scream to everybody that there is dangers caused by bupe with naloxone??? Maybe they aren't as concerned if you aren't housing a fetus, but still. I'm sick of hearing this crap from my doc that its near impossible for naloxone to be getting into my system, or an amount that would cause problems at least. Then he feeds me the line about pregnant women. Which is it? If you don't believe naloxone is getting into people's system, why put preggers women on the tex?

I understand that suboxone is yet still a young treatment, there are things to be learned that maybe we are only finding out now 8 years down the road. I hope the FDA is keeping an eye on things, & publishing any newly found info. I'm sick of docs with varying opinions. My family doc was shocked when I told him I been on suboxone for over 8 years, he believes it to be only a short term option, not life long. Many docs seem to think this. Why? Well it has to be cuz of the naloxone because millions of people have been on pure opiates for their entire lives. The opiate itself really doesn't cause long term issues. Main thing seems to be constipation, but there are solutions for that.
I had issues with it on the suboxone, but I've since started taking miralax every other day & that has fixed me up good.

I totally understand that docs don't want to prescribe subutex, & in most cases they shouldn't. But when somebody is having issues like I'm having, & I have over 8 years straight of monthly clean piss tests, & I ask to at least try subutex for a week or two then I'll gladly switch back if it doesn't help... then why the hell not give me a chance? I'd even offer go to my family doc's office every day so that they can watch me take the pill every day if that makes them feel more comfortable prescribing it. But the way I got treated after asking, I'm thinking that is unforgivable.

If I were only on sub for a year, or 8 years but I've had relapse's & struggles, then yeah, I'd understand if he isn't comfortable giving the "tex".
But I'm not a typical patient. I thought that my "perfectness" of the past 8 years taking this drug would have bought me a chance at taking subutex, but not, he somehow thinks I will abuse it.
Newsflash, if I wanted to abuse, I'd abuse the suboxone, I would have done that by now. As we all know, it can be misused & abused, so its not like the subutex is all that drastic of a change.

I wanted to ask on here. Does anybody know if any doc can prescribe subutex? Because buprenorphine has always been available as a painkiller. Not a popular one, but its always been an option. Maybe technically they can't prescribe subutex for addiction, but for pain... that might be a different story. There there might be that technicality that as long as the tex is for pain, any doc can prescribe it.
& in my case, I certainly do have legit pain issues. I hope the pain doc can do this for me, & oh how great it would be to not have to travel so far for my sub appt's.


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 Post subject: subutex
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:41 pm 
robx46, I just told the doctor that I was getting headaches and nausea and he said he could switch me to subutex. I didn't have to ask for it. Hopefully you'll get a break soon.

Sherry


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:14 pm 
Why don't you ask for a Butrans patch, that is prescribed for pain patients, not for addiction purposes??

It comes in varying doses and provides a consistent blood level and does not have nalaxone.


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 Post subject: on a boat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:08 am 
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Yes I have been getting that same effect you speak about this whole first week on suboxone. It feels as if I am on a boat. Sometimes it almost disappears and sometimes it causes near vertigo where the room is moving back and forth. I had the same problem when i started on zoloft 9 years ago only it was worse and led to frank hallucinations (audio and visual). My doctor 9 years ago gave me Klonopin (which suprised me) and with the first dose it disappeared.


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 Post subject: VERTIGO WITH SUBOXONE
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:36 pm 
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I started taking Suboxone 4 days ago because I was having withdrawals from Norco after 2 surgeries in 3 months kept me on them. Once I didn't need the Norco, my body was shocked from getting off of them. Man....I never knew it would make me feel like a full blown drug addict. I was having panic attacks, horrible leg pains and mentally NEEDING to find a way to get more.

I consulted with a Sub doc in my area and he started me on 8mg Subs. I took the first one and within 30 minutes felt a high that I had never felt before. It was quite scary but it took away the withdrawals I was having from Norco. It worked great. I took Sub from Monday - Thursday and will NEVER take them again!! I have had the WORST vertigo and "falling out" feelings. I hate this drug! I've been off of it for 19 hours now and I'm STILL having horrible vertigo issues. If I look down then look back up again, I feel like I'm going to puke because it makes me dizzy as hell.....like I just got off the spinning tea cups at Disney World. I'll be sitting down and all of a sudden my body will feel like it's tipping over and I have to catch my self. The falling out feelings I'm having are strange! It feels like I haven't slept in 3 days and that my body desperately needs to just fall asleep. If I close my eyes, I get a feeling like I'm falling off of a building or going down a hill on a roller coaster.

I've NEVER had these feelings before in my life and after only 4 days on Subs, I have these feelings. Now....I'm no rocket scientist but if I'm having these issues after taking a new drug that I've never taken before, my solid guess is that the drug is making me feel this way.

I went back to the Sub doc yesterday and he said to cut the film in half giving me 4mg at a time. I did that and took my last dose yesterday. I don't care how awful I may feel coming off of only 4 days of Subs, but it isn't worth me feeling like I'm going to fall over at any second. I'm really glad this started happening quick because hearing all the horror stories about Subs is a little disturbing. I have chronic pain issues. I've had 13 knee surgeries and 7 feet surgeries. I have true bone on bone contact in my knee....vertually NO articular cartilage on my femur condyle. The arthritis alone qualifies me for social security disability payments for the rest of my life and I'm only 33 years old. Of course, I'm not going to go the route of collecting disability payments because I'm not going to sit around my house all day doing nothing because my income doesn't afford me to do anything else. I'd rather work the 2 jobs I have and make the "more than enough money" I'm making.

Has anyone else out there had issues with "vertigo" and/or "falling-out" feelings?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:41 pm 
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There is always the chance that a medication will react in-adversely with someones make up. There is no way that a doctor can determine that IT IS NOT THE SUBOXONE. Your reactions might not be typical but there is always some non typical side effects noticed with every medication and for a doctor to say there is no way is just a hard headed doctor. For instance, I knew this woman who had terrible arthritis. the doctor prescribed her this anti-inflammatory medication and she took it for several months before she started noting that her hair was falling out in clumps. She would wake up in the morning and her pillow would be covered. Now of course it took quite a long time to find out it was this anti-inflammatory because one it was just in no way associated with swelling, joints etc...other things had to be eliminated and distinguished out first that made more sense. Although her daughters did in fact look up the side effects of all her medications at one time and that one never eluded to any such side effect. Well just by chance he switched her anti-inflammatory medication and after a couple of years and her hair filled back in etc. No one really put two and two together tho. In fact within a couple of years all her hair had thickened back up she no longer wore hair pieces etc...Most of all never woke up with clumps on her pillow or her brush never filled up as it did daily before. (I never knew there was as much hair in someones head until I saw what I would see in her trash can alone daily). And, well because it was just one transaction in her day to day life no one put it together about the change in her arthritis medication until he changed her back and within a month her hair was falling out in clumps again. The writing was on the wall then and they contacted the pharmaceutical agency and found out that there had been something like 31 cases of this. And....it was going to have to be a lot more cases before they had to note it as a side effect. I wish I could remember the name of this medication I would like to know if it has been noted 20 years later or not but anyways my point is just because it says or doesn't say it is a side effect does not necessarily make that the solid truth because maybe it reacts that way with a real low number of people...I know for a fact that they take the number of the sales and usage of the drug and so much of a percentage has to report that particular side effect before it may be noted as a side effect. Suboxone sales quota is high therefore if it was not noted by a side effect from early on...it will take a lot of complaints and registered evidence to get it noted as a side effect now.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:40 am 
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lod4rod - you don't say how much Norco you were taking, but it sure sounds like from what you describe that you were started on WAY too high a dose. Your dose could have been dropped and there's a good chance those side effects would disappear.

Plus for many many people they need a few to several days to adjust/stabilize to the medication. Like any other medication, we have to give it more than a couple of days.

I'm sorry you didn't get the results you were hoping for. But I do feel that had you been dosed correctly it still might have worked for you.

I hope whatever method you choose works for you. Good luck.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:22 pm 
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I've read this whole thread and i really feel for the OP... but i would really closely judge exactly what was happening the moment you started to feel different... not only medications you were taking but other stuff going on as well..


I find it highly unlikely that sub cause this after 2 years..

Honestly man a simple solution to see if sub is the culprit is simply taper down your sub and stop taking it and see if the negative effects you describe go away...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:45 am 
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ya but being on it for over 8 years" i don't think he or she is going to start a taper with more unessisary problems have to enter into the main ones? but robx46 i have the vertigo problems to by breaking things becouse of my balance. my 1500$ lap top my 2000$ lg/tv :cry: and other things. and why are they thinking of not alowing people to drive wile on soboxone?? but then you said you had a couple car acidents and if you had some small injury like i did it could be some thing hiding in your lower and uper neck area and that we know can fuck are balance up. but i don't no either :shock: well my medco is trying to stop my 22mgs subs and 500mgs nuvigil and i'm not going to wean down any more i/m feeling bad allready.
and i understand you at 52. i hope we all really know what were talking about. and are we all really an accident????

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