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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:37 pm 
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Just wanted to let everyone know that a new, well fairly new generic version of subutex was released by Midlothian. I've never heard of the company before but I must say I'm very impressed with their product. They make Subutex in 8mg and 2mg. What makes Midlothian's version of subutex standout is how tiny the pills are! They're about the size of a individual pea.

I did not learn about the release of this generic version of subutex until today when I picked up my script. Here is as picture of the Mildothian Generic Subutex:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/ma ... AG0029.jpg

As you can see very small, very compact. A much more effective delivery system as well. It dissolves quicker, and barely any is wasted through accidental swallowing.

For comparison, here are the other two generic versions of Subutex on the market.

Teva: http://www.pharmer.org/files/images//B8%20(sword).jpg
Roxane: http://www.parentalunderground.com/blog ... ubutex.jpg

I have not tried Teva's generic yet but I have tried the Roxane and there is a few drawbacks. One is that it takes a long time to dissolve, secondly if you get a build up of saliva in your mouth then it will never fully dissolve. You can sit there and swish your spit for nearly an hour and it still wont be fully dissolved.

I'm about to take the Mildothian generics for the first time...Like literally, right this second. I'll come back to this post in 30 minutes to an hour and give my full anaylsis of the pills including potency, efficiency, and overall effectiveness. While I am not a fan of Suboxone I must admit that the film is a very, very effective delivery system. I'm hoping this new version of generic Subutex will also be that effective.

At 6:30PM I took two 8MG Subutex. The "pill" taste which much less mild than both the original Subutex and Roxane's generic. It's not just because the pill is smaller either, it's just has an overall more mild "medicine" taste. The pill didn't stimulate much saliva at all and was fully dissolved within 15 minutes. It could have been quicker if I "painted" my mouth with it but I purposely didn't just so I could see how long it took. I "felt" the medication within 15 minutes after the medication completely dissolved. Maybe It was just the placebo effect but the pill seemed to be stronger which is probably the sole purpose of the smaller design which is much more cocentrated and contains a lot less filler. Usually, your average pill is 70%+ of binders and fillers, this pill isn't. Overall, I feel the pill was just as effective as the strips in terms of strength. The only difference being that for 60 Suboxone the total price is in the neighborhood of $400 dollars versus the Subutex which cost $160 dollars, and that there is no useless naloxone in the medication which can cause adverse side effects. Since switching to Subutex my headaches and perspiration has decreased dramatically.

So, here it is in a nutshell: it's less bitter than both the generic and regular version of Subutex. The pill's small design allows for maximum absorption and effectiveness. Overall, it's the cheapest yet best version of Buprenorphine in a pill form in the United States.

The only drawback about this tiny pill design is that people on other forums are already talking about how much easier it is to abuse these pills. However, the type of people who abuse their Sub will do it no matter if it's in strip or pill form, no matter how large or small the pill. In the end, this pill will be much safer for them to abuse which I guess is a good thing in the long run since like I said before, they will abuse the pill no matter the form.

Don't let price control your recovery process anymore! You shouldn't have to take less medication then you need or quit before you're ready just because reckitt benckiser charges a fortune for their product. Don't be afraid to talk to your doctor about a switch to Generic Subutex. If your doctor is good and actually gives a damn then this should be no problem. Your doctor maybe apprehensive in the beginning but if you're an established patient who has never asked for early refills or failed a drug test then the doctor would have no reason to deny your request.

Good luck,
Ryan

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:47 pm 
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Kick ass.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:50 am 
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generic subutex rocks!! been on it since it first came out. originaly on the roxane but the last 2 scripts i got filled walgreens switched to the teva i know most wont agree but i liked the roxane versions better. this one sounds like a good one though thanks for posting really like hearing about those who have made the switch.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:10 pm 
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Some docs claim patients prefer film , but my patients prefer generic bupe 5:1-- and NOT because of a 'buzz' as some docs think. Lets have MORE choices!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:30 pm 
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I could see why people would say this new version would be much easier to abuse. I mean you said yourself it doesn’t have all those fillers and binders which in turn will make it much more abused which is the only down side of this new generic I think. But glad to hear it worked better for you man that’s great. As of people wanting to get on Subutext like the DR said to many others DR think they want this change do to chasing a buzz. But lets face facts that is the down side of subutext if abused it will get you high and that is my only dislike of it. But at the same time not everyone is out to abuse there subutext but it is the people who do that ruin it for the others who do want to take it properly and are on lower doses than they want because of coast of these medications. But that is how things work if the abuse rate is higher for a chemical dependency drug than a lot of DR will stay away from it. Every DR I always talked to about Subutext always said the same thing the only time they will prescribe it is for pregnant girls other than that don’t bother asking. But this is where I am on the side with those DRs yes subutext can help a lot of people with coast but we are addicts and we cant be trusted in the beginning of treatment so I do understand why DR say no. But down the road once proven they can do well with the program than just give them a brake and help he or she out. But that is the catch 22, to many people cant stay in the program long enough because of coast to prove themselfs as trustfull but than the DR is keeping the patients best interest so i dont know what to say.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:47 am 
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Bboy42287 wrote:
I could see why people would say this new version would be much easier to abuse. I mean you said yourself it doesn’t have all those fillers and binders which in turn will make it much more abused which is the only down side of this new generic I think. But glad to hear it worked better for you man that’s great. As of people wanting to get on Subutext like the DR said to many others DR think they want this change do to chasing a buzz. But lets face facts that is the down side of subutext if abused it will get you high and that is my only dislike of it. But at the same time not everyone is out to abuse there subutext but it is the people who do that ruin it for the others who do want to take it properly and are on lower doses than they want because of coast of these medications. But that is how things work if the abuse rate is higher for a chemical dependency drug than a lot of DR will stay away from it. Every DR I always talked to about Subutext always said the same thing the only time they will prescribe it is for pregnant girls other than that don’t bother asking. But this is where I am on the side with those DRs yes subutext can help a lot of people with coast but we are addicts and we cant be trusted in the beginning of treatment so I do understand why DR say no. But down the road once proven they can do well with the program than just give them a brake and help he or she out. But that is the catch 22, to many people cant stay in the program long enough because of coast to prove themselfs as trustfull but than the DR is keeping the patients best interest so i dont know what to say.


You can still abuse Suboxone if you want too as well. The whole "if you shoot up Suboxone the naloxone in it will make you sick" thing is a complete fabrication. Buprenorphine has a much, much higher affinity towards the opiate receptors in your brain then Naloxone does. There are instructions and even a few videos showing people on long term sub maintenance IVing, snorting, and even rectally plugging their Suboxone in both the tablet and film form. Also, it's the Buprenorphine that blocks the effects of other opiates, now the Naloxone. Also, if you're on a long-term daily regime of Suboxone/Subutex it's basically impossible to get high off of it, even if you decided to IV it. Maybe, you might notice a slight buzz the first time since it has a higher bio-availability but just like with everything else you'll build up a tolerance to it very, very quickly.

The only way you would be able to feel a buzz off of bupe if you're a long-term user is to skip at least three days of doses, maybe even longer. A few weeks ago I had to skip my dose one day since the pharmacy I went too was out of Sub and the order wouldn't be in till the next day. So, I went longer than 48 hours between doses and even then I didn't feel any sort of Buzz, nor did I go through any withdrawal either.

If Subutex was such a danger then why hasn't BR taken it off of the market?

tearj3rker posted parts of a report that was done by the Department of Health and Ageing in Australia that concluded that Reckitt Benckiser's claim that naloxone works as a abuse deterrent is false. It also found out that if left exposed, the naloxone in the Suboxone Film can become oxidized and even dangerous.

Quote:
Naloxone is prone to oxidative degradation. In the sublingual tablets, degradation has been minimised by the sponsor, however, the same stabilization approach is not possible for the soluble films. As a consequence, a lower expiry limit for naloxone in the soluble films has been set. The applicant claims that this level of naloxone is sufficient to produce the desired opiate antagonist effects if injected. In addition, the limits proposed for naloxone degradants have been set at much higher levels than in the Australian sublingual tablet specification but are aligned with or more stringent than corresponding limits applied in the USA. In Suboxone Sublingual Film, naloxone degrades rapidly to a large number of and high levels of impurities, whereas naloxone is relatively stable in the sublingual tablet. The sponsor has proposed stricter limits than those of the sublingual tablets. The Medicines Toxicology Evaluation Section of the TGA has advised that the proposed impurity limits have been adequately qualified.




Quote:
This application was considered by the Pharmaceutical Subcommittee (PSC) of the Advisory Committee on Prescription Medicines (ACPM) (which has succeeded ADEC) at its 130th meeting on 27 January 2010. The subcommittee was unable to recommend approval for registration due to the extreme instability of naloxone in the proposed formulation compared to the registered sublingual tablets. The PSC was concerned that compliant patients taking the soluble film would be exposed to unnecessary additional risks with no concomitant benefit as naloxone is present only as an abuse deterrent.




Quote:
Study CR92/111 involved the administration of sublingual buprenorphine solution at a dose of 4 mg then 8 mg daily to opioid-dependent subjects until Day 8. This was followed by “challenges” on Days 9, 10 and 11, in which subjects received, in random order, single doses of buprenorphine 8 mg + placebo, buprenorphine 8 mg + naloxone 4 mg and buprenorphine 8 mg + naloxone 8 mg, each given as a sublingual solution. On Day 12, subjects received a single intravenous dose of buprenorphine 8 mg + naloxone 4 mg. Withdrawal symptoms were assessed using a subject-rated 21-item questionnaire, a subject-rated visual analogue scale (VAS), and an observer-rated AusPAR Suboxone Sublingual Film VAS. The investigators found no significant difference between the sublingual treatments and the intravenous challenge for any of the withdrawal measures. In summary, this study does not support the sponsor’s claim. On the contrary, it indicates that subjects who regularly take Suboxone will not experience significant withdrawal if they inject their usual dose (suggesting that the presence of naloxone in the product is not a deterrent to patients injecting their own medication). The study provides no information as to whether the naloxone content of Suboxone will produce withdrawal if injected by users who are dependent on other opioids.
[/quote]

link to the full report: http://www.tga.gov.au/pdf/auspar/auspar-suboxone.pdf

The reason a lot of doctors wont prescribe Subutex is because they are simply misinformed. They read literature given to them by Reckitt Benckiser and they believe it. Then, some doctors don't like being told that they are wrong from someone is just a "druggie." Luckily, my doctor is also a pain specialist so he is very informed about all of these matters so he didn't mind allowing me to switch to Subutex. I'm sure being an established patient for over a year that never asked for early refills and also had a clean urine sample also helped my case a little bit too.

A lot of doctors are also apprehensive to prescribe Subutex because I think I remember hearing my doctor tell me that there is stricter FDA regulations regarding Subutex then compared to Suboxone. Maybe Sub Doc could chime in again and answer this question for us?

Sorry if it seemed like I was jumping down your throat since that was not my intention, I'm just kind of fed up with all of the false information that is out there about Suboxone somehow being safer. It's just a way for BR to make more profits. Back when BR had full control of the Suboxone/Subutex market they weren't releasing all of this crap then went Subutex went generic they started this PR campaign saying how Subutex is somehow more dangerous. Then, the patent on the Suboxone Tablet expired and they released the film and started saying how dangerous the Suboxone Tablets are when in fact most of the people who abuse their Subs say the film is easier to abuse.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:53 pm 
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Mayunholdup, I have spoken to some clients that have told me that they, as well as friends of thiers, have iv'ed the films. Like you stated, RB is using scare tactics concerning the generic buprenorphine. I am glad your Dr. rx'ed generics for you, my Dr. didn't have problem prescribing them for me either. It is odd that Dr.'s are not aware, or maybe they don't want thier patients to know, that the Naloxone is basically useless when combined with buprenorphine. STP


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:58 am 
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I don't understand how you can get any more buzz from Subutex over Suboxone? On the one hand we're told that the naloxone is totally inactive orally and has no bearing when taken properly. On the other we're told that Subutex gives you more buzz?

I remember being switched from Subutex to Suboxone when Subox first came out. Honestly I felt like Suboxone was a bit stronger? Maybe it's because of the larger pill size though.

Confused :?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:46 am 
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Well, when I used to take Suboxone/Subutex in between week or month long pill binges I would sometimes notice a different buzz between the two, like the Suboxone I kind of felt almost weird sometimes, maybe from the Naloxone? The Subutex always felt a lot pure? I'm not sure if that makes sense, but that could have been from a multitude of different factors, like how long my pill bing was before, what kind of pills I was taking, how badly into withdrawal, was I drinking, or smoking, etc.

There is no doubt that the film up until the release of the Midlothian generic has been unrivaled in terms of strength. It's not because the film is more potent, it just has a much more efficient delivery system.

I've been meaning to call the pharmacy where I got these new generics to tell them how much better these pills were and to ask if they plan on carrying these from now on. I wouldn't be surprised if the Pharmacy just orders whatever is cheapest out of the three generics currently on the market. If they aren't going to carry these exclusively then I hope I can call them ahead of time and request them to order these so they have them in stock. It was 160 for the Midlothian versus 150 for the Roxane, but I'll pay more money so I can keep with these since they are just that much better.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:33 pm 
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suboxdoc wrote:
Some docs claim patients prefer film , but my patients prefer generic bupe 5:1-- and NOT because of a 'buzz' as some docs think. Lets have MORE choices!
I agree...ur awesome!...wish all doctors felt the same way!....also I sent you a PM...any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks hun ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:46 pm 
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Great post May and I love the documentation u used to support your thoughts :) I hope we keep seeing more generics come out to push prices down. I think we all know too many people who have stopped taking buprenorphine because of the cost. Hope to see more posts soon :]

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:09 pm 
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Thanx for the info on the new generic brand for subutex, Mayun...
I just recently switched from Roxane to Teva.
The Teva's are easier to cut and seem to be more consistent than the Roxane's. But they also make me feel more sleepier for some reason.
My Pharmacist was good enough to price the Teva Labs brand the same as I was paying for the Roxane's at another pharmacy, so I'm going to approach him once more and find out if he can order the Midlothian for me, and hopefully for the same price, also.
I've never heard of that company before.
Thanx again....


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:00 pm 
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RSF wrote:
Thanx for the info on the new generic brand for subutex, Mayun...
I just recently switched from Roxane to Teva.
The Teva's are easier to cut and seem to be more consistent than the Roxane's. But they also make me feel more sleepier for some reason.
My Pharmacist was good enough to price the Teva Labs brand the same as I was paying for the Roxane's at another pharmacy, so I'm going to approach him once more and find out if he can order the Midlothian for me, and hopefully for the same price, also.
I've never heard of that company before.
Thanx again....


Check this out;
RECKITT BENCKISER PHARMACEUTICALS INC
10710 MIDLOTHIAN TPKE
RICHMOND, VA 23235-4722


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:36 pm 
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Coincidence methinks.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:20 pm 
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I found out from Midlothian Labs, that they sold it back to their previous parent company Hi-Tech Pharmacal earlier this year. Hi-Tech is based out of Amityville, NY.
I'm in the process of finding out if Hi-Tech still manufactures the smaller 8mg. pill. Have not heard back from them, yet.
I'm a bit leary about talking to my Pharmacist about the subject. He just recently bent over backwards to procure Teva's for me. But, it's my body, right? The Roxanes were too inconsistent and would crumble when I tried to cut them. The Tevas make me sleepy, most of the time.
The picture of the smaller 8mg. on the Hi-Tech site looked ok. Unlike may's pic, these pills had an 8 on one side, and a line w/ an arrow on the other side.
I would be willing to pay more money for the quality, because I believe that I would need less if they're better than Teva or Roxane's.....
Keep you all posted,,,,


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:22 pm 
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RSF, the pills you described are the same ones I have. I took the pictures on my phone so I couldn't manage to to get a good picture of the markings on the pill due to the fact they are so small.

I just picked up these pills last month so I'm sure they are still manufacturing them.

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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 7:00 pm 
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tearj3rker wrote:
I don't understand how you can get any more buzz from Subutex over Suboxone? On the one hand we're told that the naloxone is totally inactive orally and has no bearing when taken properly. On the other we're told that Subutex gives you more buzz?

I remember being switched from Subutex to Suboxone when Subox first came out. Honestly I felt like Suboxone was a bit stronger? Maybe it's because of the larger pill size though.

Confused :?

SAME HERE!!! I'm confused too


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:18 am 
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Why on earth would anyone need to take two 8 milligram subtext at one time.
The ceiling is 6 so u waste 10 milligrams.
That is a strange dose.
If I had to guess I’d say u work for the company.
Opinion disregarded.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:41 am 
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Wow, that's a really rude response. Shockingly, you may not know every single thing needed to tell who needs what. We do know that there's variety in ceiling levels and metabolism among people.

Until we can thoroughly track the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics in a large enough group of people to come up with an average, we are mostly guessing at the ceiling limit. We know the approximate parameters, but to understand each individual's limit we would need more information than we currently have.

Aside from not knowing the exact ceiling limit of buprenorphine, we also don't know the psychological factors like the placebo effect that affect each individual. It's more complicated than what you seem to believe.

Amy

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:09 am 
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Amy-Work In Progress wrote:
Wow, that's a really rude response. Shockingly, you may not know every single thing needed to tell who needs what. We do know that there's variety in ceiling levels and metabolism among people.

Until we can thoroughly track the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics in a large enough group of people to come up with an average, we are mostly guessing at the ceiling limit. We know the approximate parameters, but to understand each individual's limit we would need more information than we currently have.

Aside from not knowing the exact ceiling limit of buprenorphine, we also don't know the psychological factors like the placebo effect that affect each individual. It's more complicated than what you seem to believe.

Amy



Aside from all the stuff you listed, accusing someone of working for a pharmaceutical company...like, someone from RB or Midlothian would take the time from being...well, a pharmaceutical company employee, to come post some sort of misinformation on some random internet forum. I mean...who does that? I guess I think of the practicality in things...and why would that even be remotely feasible?
If you're going to make such absurd assumptions about someone, try something other than the "you must work for them" argument. There is so much more that you could say besides that..

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