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 Post subject: I am S.T.U.C.K
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:21 pm 
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I need some words of advice or encouragement. I've been tapering since the end of October and I got to 1 mg, where I've been since March 11th, aside for one day where I tried to go down to .75. That was not doable for me. I was okay the first day and seemed okay the second day, but I woke up in the middle of the night following the second day all sweaty and shivering and anxious, so I took another .25, thus going back to 1. I should be okay at 1 by now. For some reason, I'm not. It's been up and down. I keep thinking that I'll wake up the next day feeling okay, but again I wake up with the sneezes and weird legs and chills. It's NOT bad at all, but it's not good enough that I feel I can go down further. I've kinda learned the hard way that going down when you haven't adjusted to where you're at is a very bad idea. I'm starting to worry that maybe I'm just not going to get comfy at this dose. I'm still dosing 3 to 4 times a day. Basically, I wait until I feel crappy and my legs hurt and I take .25 to take the edge off. I'm trying to get to where I'm dosing .5 in the am and .5 at night. I cannot seem to do once daily dosing, for some reason. It ends up that I'm just sick for a good chunk of the day/night when I do that. I've been dosing frequently after the drops and then consolidating the doses as I feel better and before going down again. Am I still feeling this because my body is trying to catch up or is still getting rid of a backlog of Sub? Do you guys think if I wait around at 1 for a good while, it will be much, much easier to go down from there or at some point is it just as good as it gets and how do I know when that is? Before when I went down, it went away by Day 5 at the higher doses and a little longer at the lower doses, but it's never lasted this long. I sneezed this morning so many times that I think I set a world record or something. To me, that's actually kind of a fun symptom. :D And then when I take the Sub, the sneezing stops, so I'm pretty certain this is still w/d and not allergies or something, especially since I don't really get allergies too badly. I guess I just need to hear something that will make me feel a bit less discouraged. I wasn't planning on this happening, KWIM?

Thanks guys,
laddertipper

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:25 pm 
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As you know I haven't tapered, but I'll give you a couple of ideas. First, it's completely normal to dose twice a day at the low dose that you're on. It just doesn't last as long when you're that low. Secondly, have you tried the every other day dosing? It will get you down more slowly, but it might get you down, which is what you're trying to do. Just an idea.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:04 pm 
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Ladder first thing to remember is you didnt get to the point your at overnight and it takes time to get free of it ( my mantra) .... listen to your body and if you need to stay at 1mg longer then so be it, its all about what YOU are ready for. I tried to stop last year and it was a disaster.. so I waited untill now to try again and your the one who told me GO SLOWLY and dont beat yourself up if your not getting there as fast as you like.

Have you tried getting clonadine?? It does help ALOT... at least for me, I too feel like I am on a rollercoaster going off it, one day I am fine, next day I am not.... but I get thru it. The important part is to get thru it and stay sober so dont give yourself more then you can handle. I am no expert I am just like you but we both know this is no easy task and it is a big deal. I even told myself if I had to stay at .5 for a year I would..... I am learning to not have expectations cuz when I do I only get frustrated. I had a schedule I wanted to wean at but you helped me realize slowly is the key.

Hang in there girl your doing fabulous..... I give you alot of credit.. message me if you need to I work at home and today is slow for me.

Are you taking vitamins or supplements?? I know its hard and I say this over and over .. excercise helps... staying busy helps and this too shall pass....................

I am here if you need me .. give yourself a pat on the back for coming as far as you have.. we are all different and have different tolerances. Be kind to yourself!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:02 pm 
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Gee whiz, I was going to try to give you some advice, but mg NAILED it!!

It's funny how our advice to other's comes right back to us, eh. I know I've been seeing it happen to me a lot here in the last few days and it's usually pretty helpful.

Just to reiterate what was said above, DON'T RUSH!! Take your time, if you can tolerate 1mg, then stay there for a while. If I remember correctly, you dropped from 2mg to 1mg on the quick side....your body may indeed have some catching up to do.

You have to be patient, I know, I know....patience sucks!! We addicts are usually not very good in that department.

We got your back dude!! You can and will do this, it's just gonna take time.

Oh Yeah, so you think sneezing is fun eh, wait until it happens when you have a mouthful of food!! :shock: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:29 pm 
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yea every time I adjust, by day 2, 3 or 4 I usually wake up at night sick. If I take enough to get me out of that sickness(usually half the daily dose) everything is fine by day 4 or 5 and I am adjusted to the new lower dose. The key is to deal with the sickness during the day when adjusting, and dosing once at night. The half life is so long that you should only need it once a day. I to used to take it in the morning and night but when I adjusted to once at night it became much much easier to lower doses. This way you only need to lower one dose and your body gets used to more hours without it. Since nights are usually the worst and it shouldnt be too depressing and hopeless being sick for a few hours during the first few days I think nighttime doses are best. waking up sick and tosing and turning in bed are much harder to deal with than being minorly sick while busy during the day. Trust me on this one.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:34 pm 
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oh and for those first few days your adjusting take clonodine, .2mg during the day. you will be tired and feel "heavy" but in an hour all the withdrawl will go away.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:06 pm 
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I've not yet started weening off of my 2mgs a day, but I will say that getting to the point where you are taking your sub in one daily dose, and I prefer at night, helped me. I had a few problems going from 4mgs to 2mgs, and at that time I was cutting the 2mgs (I take the dissolvable strips) in half and taking 1mg in am and 1mg in pm until my dr suggested I try just taking the 2mgs at 5 or 6pm. It made a huge difference. I would not have thought that possible but it honestly made the biggest difference. From that point on I felt no problems. Although I wasn't experiencing any bad withdrawels, I just felt heavy, and anxious, but when I changed it where it was just the once daily those immediately dissipate. I know I'm new here, but I'm always open to making a friend, and helping in any way, so feel free to message me of you'd like! :)
Big hugs to you, and give yourself credit, you've already come a long way, from what I've read! Just might take a little longer, but just think of how far you've come already! I think it's great that you're on the 1mgs, you should be so proud of yourself!!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:00 pm 
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laddertipper - Congratulations on tapering to 1mg per day - don't get discouraged, you're doing just fine.

As far as tapering... I think it's important that you drop by no more than 10% once you've stablized after each reduction. If you're having a hard time with that, you may want to try 5% instead - slow and steady over speed is much more likely to get you were you want to go... at least in this situation. Also, when you're at this level I think it's wise to dose every 12 hours instead of just once a day. Daily exercise should help your brain to start producing its own endorphins again as well. It's probably the last thing you want to consider when you're feeling like crap, but it is a good idea. A 2 or 3 mile walk every day will most likely do the trick, and it'll go by a lot faster if you bring the iPod along with you and get lost in the music. Try to eat highly nutritious dense foods if you can and cut out all the processed garbage - a multi-vitamin couldn't hurt either, though I'm not a big proponent of mega-doses. Most of what your body doesn't use will just be excreted, and some vitamins can become toxic at high levels.

You may already be doing many of the things that I've suggested, but I just wanted you to know what worked for me personally.

Best of luck and keep up the good work.

Bill


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 Post subject: 1mg-Wow
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:46 pm 
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Laddertipper,

Getting down to that low of dose is really great and it sounds like you are just about ready to stop completely.

My nurse told me the way that they do it is to get down to a low dose, (like you did) and then take it every other day for at least two weeks to a whole month, a month being preferred because I see them monthly. The every two days, three days, etc, then jump.

Give your body time to adjust slowly she said. What does YOUR doctor say? I am so very grateful I found a Sub doctor and nurse who truly care about us and know a lot about Suboxone. But hearing her explanation on how to taper down made sense, didn't it?

But you know more than I do. All I can offer is what has been told to me.

Congrats on getting very close to the jumping day. Your success will be met with enthusiasm here.

Rule62


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:11 pm 
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(((((BIG OLE HUG))))

ladder, everyone here is right! You ARE doing so well! I can't wait to be where you are! And, everyone is right about TAKING YOUR TIME. My doctor explained it well to me yesterday....he called me a "psuedo-addict"....it means that I am an accidental addict and although I did not intentionally become addicted to opiates, it happened from being prescribed it for a long enough time for my brain to become "addicted". He told me that changes have happened in my brain that I am going to have to have patience to change back. But, it WILL happen! Yes! It will happen....you will not be here forever...it's just that we think about it so much and it seems that way but it won't be...I promise!

I have been so IMPATIENT....and that has to stop. We cannot be impatient or we will be thrown into withdrawal. I think hat's suggestion of trying to go every other day sounds good. My doctor even suggested that when I get down to a very small dose, to try .5 one day and 1 the next day for a week or two before I go to just .5 daily and then start skipping days. He did tell me to take it slowly from here on out.

I'm down to 6 mgs day...this is my 2nd day there...and no, it is not a piece of cake. I can definitely tell that I am very, very weepy and slightly achy. I look over at the bottle of Subs and know that all I have to do is take 1/2 of a pill and I would be out of this but I'm not going to. If I can make it through this just a couple more days, this too shall pass...and I will be ready to do another drop after stabilizing.

ladder, you have friends here going thru this with you. Maybe we don't know each other personally, but we are friends in spirit...strangers with a common bond reaching out to grab your hand...all going through this together. Many, many folks have gotten off Subs and we are on our way to joining them. Look forward, hon!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:13 am 
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Laddertipper, congratulations on your success so far. As you may know i tapered at a pharmacy with supervised doses on a reduction script. I also lived 50 km from town so after deciding to make a reduction on any given day (about 1mg a week) i had no going back up. From 4mg-2mg the Dr. put me on second day dosing. I found this very difficult as i was hanging-out every second night. I found that I had to take a bit every day. The hardest adjustment was from 2mg - 1mg. This took about 9 days to stabalise at. I took about 3-4 smaller doses after that of 0.4mg then jumped. But you make an interesting point-does PAWS play a part in our reduction? does it affect our wd? and what about tolerance? all good things to consider. One thing a good friend of mine told me about clonidine and other apparently helpful medicines was that sometimes they can take away what they give. I have recently found this to be true: for me at least. My counsel is to be patient; i know it is frustrating you, but you have achieved so much so far. When you can accept the possibility of symptoms then you know you are ready to jump. But you can minimise this risk by tapering. Keep up the good work.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:12 am 
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Man, I can't believe I forgot to send you some hugs, so here you go ((((((GREAT BIG HUGS))))))


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 Post subject: Thank you guys so much
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:29 am 
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Now, that's why this forum is so fantastic. I've been getting so down but hearing all those positive words absolutely picks me back up.

Hat, mg113, Romeo, l i v i n g, RainRainGoAway, bronzebeta, Rule62, ClearAqua, cooltats, I appreciate all the ideas and reassurance so very, very much. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and I am absolutely going to take my own advice. I know I'm always telling people to slow down and give their bodies a chance to adjust. I need to listen to myself!! One thing I'm absolutely going to do is to try to get my dosing down to at least only twice a day. Then, I'd like to get it down to once a day if I could. I have a nagging feeling that getting it down to one dose would make it easier when I go down. Dosing so many times a day feels more like scraping by, but dosing once would be kinda like conquering the dose completely. I mean, if it doesn't make any difference how many times I dose a day, then why can I seem to not dose once? And I'd bet those of you dosing once would easily be able to dose twice or three times. I cannot imagine being able to handle dosing every other day. However, I guess dosing once a day is a step towards doing that, and eventually, I should be able to dose every other day if I expect to be able to stop completely.

After resigning myself to taking an indefinite break from tapering, I feel better. By indefinite break I just mean I'm going to wait until my body is ready to go down further and then I'll continue tapering. I know the Sub from past weeks is still slowly leaving my body. Maybe that accounts for the prolonged trouble. The bottom line is that I started my tapering at a conservative pace and when I got lower and realized those doses were so much harder, I kept trying to push it. I have no good reason to do this. My doctor isn't going to cut me off. I can afford to pay for my appointment co-pays and my film strips, especially at these little doses, so I just need to relax and know that if I'm still tapering past when I wanted to be, the world will absolutely not end. So, today, my goal is only to dose twice and I haven't taken any yet. I'm going to wait until at least 11 a.m. and then take the other .5 as late as I can. If I go to once daily, it will be at night, as I cannot stand being sick when I'm trying to sleep. Obviously, some of you guys feel the same way.

It's weird where our heads go. I had no problems with my legs until recently. Yesterday, I was struggling with this intense fear of being permanently damaged. I've been worrying that I damaged something somehow and as a result, I'd be stuck with this weird sciatic nerve pain pulsing down my legs forever. Now, logically, I know that's not true. I've called all over the country and asked many, many doctors about this. No one thinks that Suboxone or Subutex do any permanent damage to anyone's brain. I have to keep reminding myself of that. If I didn't have leg pain before and it's a common w/d symptoms and as far as ANYONE knows this does not damage the brain, then at least I know it will end, right? And to show me that I was right about that, my leg pain started to disappear last night and reappear in other parts of my body. :D It's not at all a severe pain level at any one time. It's just severe in how long it lasts, because it gets aggravating. I honestly found labor less annoying. I need to step up the exercise. I did a long walk last night and then sat by the river and listened to it roar and that was very calming to me.

Man, I swear I am gonna always stick around here and try to pay back all the help I've gotten on here from soooooo many people....I'm telling you guys, I'm so good at getting all fired up about something and giving it my all, but at some point, I start to burn out on the whole thing and this taper is no exception. It scares me when I feel truly burned out. I don't want to quit! That's why being here is so important and helpful to me. We all are able to help encourage and even push each other a little so we don't give up, whether it's when someone's inducing or stabilizing or tapering or jumping.

Oh, and about my doc. He's nice but he's a PCP. I've brought him tons of info and I suspect he doesn't read it. He just doesn't seem interested. I did already ask for Clonidine and he looked surprised and said that was strange and he'd never prescribed it for d/t before. WTF? I think I will have to go in there and say "I need Clonidine and I need Neurontin" and I can hand him a file of info backing that up and he'll probably just write the script if I will take it and leave, lol. The last time I went in, I had the info on my phone as well as printed and I whipped it out and read to him auctioneer-style so he had to hear it, lol. However, he's busy and my appointment always seems to be before he's leaving to lunch. I used to have a psych before we moved. Actually my first two Sub docs were psychs. I miss my second doc pretty badly. He was so knowledgeable. I'm on three waiting lists still to get in with other docs, but no luck so far. Sub docs are very in demand, as you guys know, and there's a bit of a shortage here. I'm driving over an hour to my current doc. The only thing that pisses me off about him is that he thinks a person can discontinue Sub at 2 mg and be okay and I've brought him SO much info to the contrary, including Dr. Junig's explanation of why a person needs to taper to under 200 micrograms. As a result, he has pegged me as "unusually sensitive" since I cannot handle that severe a jump, and I don't appreciate that label!!!! That's the same thing as being called a wimp. Why does he not understand that even a small dose of Sub is equivalent to enough full agonist opiate to cause w/d symptoms!?

I've taken Neurontin before, after my head injury, and I'm very comfortable with doing that. I have to say I'm a tad bit nervous about the Clonidine and here's why: Even though I was able to consume an enormous quantity of alcohol and somehow survive dying of alcohol poisoning, I'm so sensitive to many medications. My biggest fears center around anything that gives me a headache, as between my drinking and then my head injury, I've head enough headaches for one lifetime. Things like Seroquel, Trazadone, Xanax, Benadryl, cough medicine....they all give me hangover-type headaches, which is ridiculous.....I'm serious. A low Trazadone dose will take me out for two days with a raging headache and barfing, etc. So, I've heard the Clonidine is a miracle drug but is also very strong and to be careful with it because it can give people headaches. I'm still on Klonopin, but my dose is always .5 mg. I'm totally unwilling to increase my dose of it, as it's another thing that will give me a headache and it's a benzo. I guess I can take a quarter of whatever Clonidine dose he gives me and see how that goes. I should probably find out what a normal Clonidine dose is before I go in there. I think my next appmnt is in a little less than a month. I was hoping to not add anymore meds to this equation, but you know what? I need me some Neurontin and a little Clonidine!! I'd love to know what dose is considered safely low enough that it won't make someone get sick. So, if anyone can let me know, please do.

I'll let you all know how it goes getting to once daily dosing and then eventually unsticking myself from 1 mg. I think I just needed to hear everyone say "It's okay that you need to chill at 1 mg for a while and you aren't a big loser for doing that." I've taken a decently long break from Sub twice before. Once was when I found out I was pregnant and jumped off from a high dose for a week before resuming, and the other was a week before I delivered when I jumped off at 3 mg. Those two times jumping OFF were not as bad as getting down to 1 mg has been. I think that's probably due to the length of time I've been on Sub at this point. I cannot get too mad at my body for wanting something I've been giving it since 2005, right? On the brighter side, I haven't spent a single day of this taper in bed. No way. It takes a whole lot to keep me in bed and I don't want to resort to being in bed unless it's because I jumped, because that sort of thing does a number on my brain, KWIM? The weather is finally warming up and I want to go outside and get some fresh air and not be stuck indoors, crippled by an aching body. The cold and adjusting to a new climate (way more extreme than the SoCal climate I'm used to) plus the aches absolutely have been crippling me like nobody's business. I haven't wanted to leave the house and that's become a significant problem. This really is a whole other topic, but I am seriously struggling between the desire to go out and enjoy the world and this weird anxiety about doing that. I'm very ashamed of this part of my life and it baffles me too. I've been semi-reclusive for a long time now and feeling crappy from tapering has made that worse. I need to turn that ship around before I can add another drop in dose to the whole thing. I think if I could go out and no one would look at me or talk to me...or better yet I knew I wouldn't even SEE anyone, then I'd be much more inclined to go out. I don't want to run into anyone. Ugh...what in the hell is wrong with me? LOL. I'm just so strange.

One thing I realize now is that tapering is the only way to go for me. I've mentioned that my best friend jumped off Sub recently from 1 mg. In a way, it bothered me to be alone in this, when she and I have been going through it together. I also wanted her to go first and to see what happened. Man, I am selfish!! Anyway, she's been really sick. She was, of course, sick for a week solid, and then it seemed to disappear, and that made me question the wisdom of tapering, as being sick for a single week seems a small price to pay if all is well after that week is up. Well, her symptoms came back. I really thought she was out of the woods. She thought she was too. It's so odd how you can feel great for a couple days and then be taken out again by diarrhea and sweats and aches and crawling skin. So, jumping at 1 obviously is not what I want to do at this point. Tapering is the only way to go. I don't want to be sixteen days out from jumping and still having acute w/d symptoms.

((HUGS)) to all you guys. Thank you so much for your support!!!!

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:18 pm 
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Hey Ladder,

I'm so glad to hear you sound better.

My Suboxone Doctor prescribed me Clonidine .1mg twice daily. Please notice the decimal place .1mg

You had mentioned how you have become a semi-recluse....it happened to me too. Everything you said about "I'd love to go out, I just hope I don't run into anybody".....exact same thing for me. As I have progressed through my recovery, there have been days where I feel like talking to lots of people, but there have been plenty of days that I just wish everyone would leave me alone too. Even to this day I still have some issues with stuff like that, but I remember someone telling me to try something....they said, "Fake it until you make it", pretty good advice, eh......you told me that!!

I know this, the 'reclusiveness' was a lot worse 9 months ago than it is now. Somewhere along the line I also made up my mind that I don't like being like that and I promised myself not to be like that for the rest of my life.....more shit to work on, I know.....it seems never ending.

You're doing fine, hang in there and keep posting.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:18 am 
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Hey Laddertipper - I just wanted to chime in and offer my support.

I remember that feeling of getting "stuck" at certain doses. Some reductions are just harder than others for whatever reason. One thing that I figured out right around the 1mg mark was that I absolutely could NOT reduce my dose the week before my period. The hormones combined with the withdrawal was just too much for me to handle. And it seemed that during PMS week I was more sensitive to pain or my fibro was more likely to bother me. On the other hand, the week after my period ends, I am freaking Superwoman...so I used that to my advantage.

It's just a process of getting to know your own little quirks and figuring out what works best for you. I also went through the leg-pain as a symptom of withdrawal. I'm happy to report that after I jumped, while the pain got worse for a short time, it eventually subsided and went away. It was uncomfortable - but not to the point that I couldn't get on with life - for 2 or 3 weeks but by the 4th week it was gone. In the meantime, hot baths, long walks and a good massage really help.

Anyway, you are totally kicking ass in this taper. You are doing this thing! I know how tedious it feels at times and how much you probably wish you were just done already, but hang in there. Pretty soon this will all be a distant memory :D

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:39 pm 
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DOAQ, the idea of it being a distant memory is so cool!!

I tried to combine my dose yesterday into only dosing twice instead of 3 or 4 times. I waited until late morning and took my .5 and that was fine. I felt fantastic. I mean, FANTASTIC! Then, I realized I was pretty high. I've never gotten this degree of sensation from Sub. It was weird. All my pain went away. I got normal blood flow back to my hands and feet and I was bouncing around like crazy. I felt Grrrrrreaaaatt!! Once I put it all together and knew why I felt great, I didn't feel so good about it anymore. That kinda ruined my buzz, if you know what I mean. I was a little afraid to drive because I was worried my pupils looked funky. This was a big shocker. I waited until bed to take my other half milligram and of course, I didn't feel that. Woke up with sweats again at o'dark-thirty, but that's okay, because I'm going to hang out at 1 for a long time if need be.

There's one little voice in me asking if for some reason, I cannot stabilize at 1. Maybe it's too low a dose for my body to ever be okay because it's a constant up and down and up and down...so maybe my body is just sitting there waiting for the Sub and throwing symptoms at me to try to get its way? I'm trying to shut that voice up!!

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:35 pm 
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please try taking clonodine at night. I know ppl say this too often here bu w/o it i would have had a much harder and more drawn out wean. It helps so much at keeping you comfortably asleep through w/d by lowering you blood pressure. best part is its non addictive and does not need to be weaned off after your done with it. If there is any advice i could not stress enough its that clonodine is the best help out there for tapering.


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 Post subject: l i v i n
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:12 am 
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Location: Carson City, Nevada
l i v i n wrote:
please try taking clonodine at night. I know ppl say this too often here bu w/o it i would have had a much harder and more drawn out wean. It helps so much at keeping you comfortably asleep through w/d by lowering you blood pressure. best part is its non addictive and does not need to be weaned off after your done with it. If there is any advice i could not stress enough its that clonodine is the best help out there for tapering.


l i v i n (or anyone else who may know this), I know I can order Clonidine online, but I cannot remember from where. I may be able to get it out of my doc, but he has already turned me down once. If I can get it online, I'd rather do that. I realized I'm describing my morning symptom wrong. It's not 'sweats'. I guess it's what everyone would probably call 'crawly skin'. It like hot and hot prickly things inside my skin. Woke up with it again. This is so strange to have this so long. I have had this before on other parts of this taper, but it always, always went away, and it went away sooner rather than later at higher doses. I'm a little...panicked...but maybe the Clonidine would get me feeling more positive again.

Thanks everybody,
laddertipper

_________________
First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


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 Post subject: I hear ya
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:30 am 
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laddertipper ,

Im pretty much in same situation but Ive completely stopped , going on 3rd week now and I can say it hasnt been easy but is getting better,,,Im thinking 1 or 2 more weeks and I should be fine , I stopped 2 times before but couldnt take w/d but thats where the tapering is important. Im sure this is gonna be it , you can do it just take care of yourself , plenty of support here I see so use that too.......good luck youll be fine

steve

oh and yeah>I sneezed this morning so many times that I think I set a world record or something.
same here!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:01 am 
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Location: Carson City, Nevada
I personally like the sneezing. I don't know why, but it makes me giggle every time, and my kids think it's hysterical. They keep asking me if I'm getting a cold :?

laddertipper

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First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


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