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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:07 pm 
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Ah dude, I'm so sorry. Goodness gracious I wish I knew exactly what to say to make you feel better, but I'm sorry to say I don't.

Please don't give up! I remember during my wd, when I was a nanometer away from my breaking point....I held on and things started turning around. I was pretty convinced that my life would be a complete hell for every waking moment for the rest of my life, then, FINALLY, things started getting better.

You've got about a ka-gillion people here who are routing for you, praying for you and sending you their love.

We love love ya bud!!

(((HUGS)))

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 Post subject: Update
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:17 am 
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Still have symptoms, but I have good days too. The parts that are hard are the mornings, mainly the crawling/chills thing, and the afternoon legs. Today was a pretty good day. Yesterday wasn't. It's up and down. However, I'm so happy because guess what? The Canadians do rock and today I got my little package with my little bubble-wrapped Clonidines. Yippie!! I took a quarter of a .1 and then another quarter an hour later. I don't feel zonked at all, which I'm so relieved about. I was afraid of taking something that was going to actually lower my BP. It sounded scary, but it's not at all. I do feel a tiny bit drowsy, but that's a good thing. Just getting the package felt like a miracle. WoooHoooo!! Maybe this will make the mornings easier!!! Every little bit helps, and I'm not sure how much high BP causes the symptoms. If it's a significant cause, I may be feeling a whole lot better in the near future.

Onward and downward fellow taperers!!

laddertipper

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 Post subject: congratulations!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:54 am 
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Hey Ladder,

I am so happy for you that you got the Clonodine. FYI since you asked about blood pressure..it is an alpha agonist so it works on the alpha receptors in the heart etc to lower heart rate and blood pressure. I know when I took it when I was trying to stay off of vicodin 4 years ago that it made me very sleepy. I took .1mg at night and I was out! But the dr had also given me some kind of benzo as well. This was 2007 I think and I had flown to LA to talk to this Sub dr. I knew nothing much about Sub at that time. I had heard of it but was pretty ignorant about it. When I got to LA (they had a driver for you at the airport which was awesome) I went straight to his clinic and they were so great. Did a history and pysical, a quick strip u/a which was pos for opiates of course but my COWS scale was too low to start the Sub. With the cost of Sub at that time I really was afraid and knowing about the potential pwd I didn't really want to go on it. But we all decided after about 12 hours that I didn't need the Sub and he gave me comfort meds for five days. I went shopping in LA!! during w/d...(how bad could they have been right?) and then flew back home. I now look back and am grateful he was the kind of guy he was...that he could have put me on Sub and it would have cost me a fortune, I would have had to fly back down there the following month to follow up and pay him, too etc. But he did the "right" thing. I just didn't know enough about what the point of Sub was at that time...and I doubt i was really ready to stop using, although I wanted to.

Ok off subject...but the point is I'm so happy you have the Clonodine because I know how badly you need to sleep and insomnia makes us insane! And it makes all the other symptoms worse. I think once you sleep and get rest things will start to look up for you. I hope so anyway! You sure have been suffering in this prolonged taper. I feel for you. Let us know how you feel on the Clonodine. And PS I wouldn't be too afraid of taking a whole pill at night before bed. I think you'll do fine and you'll sleep better.


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 Post subject: Weird
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:24 am 
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This is weird. The Clonidine absolutely did help me sleep and it relaxed me beforehand, which was wonderful. The only problem is I woke up early and was really sick to my stomach and heaving. Went back to sleep. Now I feel better stomach-wise. Just a tad of a headache. That nausea was weird. Is that a side effect of Clonidine or something else?

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:59 am 
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Hey dude,

I'm glad the Clonidine helped you to get some sleep and I'm super glad it relaxed you.

As far as the vomitting goes, I don't remember hearing of that side effect, not saying it wasn't the Clonidine.....I just don't remember hearing Clonidine doing that to others?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:31 pm 
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ladder I was thinking of you I got my package too :) I dont think nausea is a side effect of the clonidine...... keep an eye on it

hang in there girl your so in my prayers.....

I been off for 13 days and my immune system is going crazy I had shingles last week and this week I have ( drumroll please) staph infection on my back prob got it at the gym ( grosses me out thinking of it) so although withdrawal is done I believe I am miserable with a fever and throbbing back from this crap but this too shall pass...............

I hardly ever got sick on subs and I go see my sub dr monday if its not raining ( my car is in the shop till tuesday so its me and my bike )

Keep us updated woman!!!

:)

Lisa


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:19 pm 
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mg I have also not been "sick" with a cold or fever or anything while on subs for the last three years. maybe we have been sick but being so used to the "sick" feeling while being in constant w/d from subs made us not realize we were sick when we were. Anyway, ladder, glad to hear you have clonodine. It will be much easier for you now. keep us updated.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:39 am 
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the nausea has to be from a combination of the suboxone and clonidine b/c the SAME EXACT thing happened to me last night, i've taken clonidine a million times before but i just started a sub taper and was having restlessness last night so I took the clonidine and was sick all night....I even took a nausea pill that I had from an earlier prescription and it didn't work...but I'm in the same situation I"m stuck at a dose but I just started a taper perhaps my dose is too low to start


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:56 am 
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I looked it up and nausea is a listed side effect of Clonidine. I'm so likely to get sick to my stomach from a new med, so I'm not really surprised. Tonight, I took a quarter or a .1. Don't really feel too weird, but I already do feel a little sick to my stomach. I'm hoping I can ease myself onto this stuff by starting off slowly.

The getting sick thing is weird. I have to admit that just during the hard part of this taper, I've gotten sick more than I have in the past five years combined. I figure it's just because it's hard on one's body to go through this. I've been on antibiotics twice since I started tapering, and before that, I don't remember the last time I needed any antibiotics. It's quite odd. I got two ear infections and bronchitis and strep throat this winter. Hmmm...

Okay, I give up. I do think I'm going to barf. Blech. This will probably only last a few days or so until I'm used to it.

BYE!

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:11 pm 
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Hi Ladder, I have been thinking of you, and was hoping that the clonodine came and helped you with the symptoms you were having. That sucks about the nausea, but I totally understand! I always get some side effect from any new med I take and it sucks. Usually it's a massive headache, and I will almost anticipate it so much I sometimes think I give myself the headache. I had a lot of nausea and vomiting in the beginning of my taper from 2mg down. It sucked, but I did get relief after about 10 days. I hope that it eases up for you, and your definitely doing the right thing by starting in lower doses and working your way up. Most medications that give you side effects: the effects will dissipate as your body becomes accustomed to the med. I really hope that happens for you!! Idk if this will help, but do you know those little hard lemon candies with the sugar coating, I think they are called Lemon heads? Well I had wicked nausea, and used that while pregnant, and it took alot of the nausea away. I just thought I'd mention that, maybe you could try it, and hopefully it could help some. It didn't take it away completely, but it definitely helped alot! I swore my daughter was going to come out yellow b/c I ate so many. Lemon is supposed to help with nausea. So I just wanted to throw that out there.

Hang in there, I know first hand how hard and how far off the end can seem, but you are always so positive even when feeling awful, and your positivity was a big inspiration to me as well! I hope you feel better this afternoon. I felt very, very sleepy on the clonodine btw, I meant to mention that earlier in this post, it made me yawn uncontrollably. I didn't get nauseous from it that I know of, but I have heard that it causes the vomiting, so combining that with not feeling well with the taper and it seems you've got a double whammy. :(

I'm rooting for you!! I hope that it levels out soon and you get to feeling good!

Rain

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:34 pm 
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Thank you Rain!! I did kinda puke a little last night, and I have a touch of hangover today....on 1/4 of a .1 Clonidine. I don't know how someone that could drink as much as I could cannot take a little piece of Clonidine and not feel yucky the next day. It's not bad or anything, but I can feel that unnatural sleep/hangover/headache thing. I'm seriously considering taking an eighth of a Clonidine tonight instead. (The idea of comfort meds is great, but then every med has a side effect, which makes it less wonderful.) The only thing is that I still had chills this morning, so I'm not sure it really helps unless you take a more substantial dose. I'm going to have to work my way up. My friend is coming out this summer so I can jump. I'm looking forward to seeing her, but man, it scares me TONS to think about actually doing it. I just don't feel that I am adjusting to this dose, so if it's going to stay like this, I might as well just quit taking it and feel crappier than I already do, but at least I'd be getting it over with. KWIM? I had two good days and then this morning wasn't good at all. So very weird how it goes back and forth like that. It seems like the Sub is kinda teasing my brain, but my body cannot reach any sort of homeostasis, like I did at all the other doses I dropped to. I always, always adjusted before, but this time, it's not working. Sure wish I knew why!!! Personally, I do think it's because of how long I've stayed on Sub. It's obviously easier to get off Sub after two weeks versus five months, so why would it not be harder after five years versus two? Our bodies get used to being given something, no matter what it is. I've been covering up my receptors since 2005, and now they are throwing a tantrum.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:48 pm 
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laddertipper wrote:
Thank you Rain!! I did kinda puke a little last night, and I have a touch of hangover today....on 1/4 of a .1 Clonidine. I don't know how someone that could drink as much as I could cannot take a little piece of Clonidine and not feel yucky the next day. It's not bad or anything, but I can feel that unnatural sleep/hangover/headache thing. I'm seriously considering taking an eighth of a Clonidine tonight instead. (The idea of comfort meds is great, but then every med has a side effect, which makes it less wonderful.) The only thing is that I still had chills this morning, so I'm not sure it really helps unless you take a more substantial dose. I'm going to have to work my way up. My friend is coming out this summer so I can jump. I'm looking forward to seeing her, but man, it scares me TONS to think about actually doing it. I just don't feel that I am adjusting to this dose, so if it's going to stay like this, I might as well just quit taking it and feel crappier than I already do, but at least I'd be getting it over with. KWIM? I had two good days and then this morning wasn't good at all. So very weird how it goes back and forth like that. It seems like the Sub is kinda teasing my brain, but my body cannot reach any sort of homeostasis, like I did at all the other doses I dropped to. I always, always adjusted before, but this time, it's not working. Sure wish I knew why!!! Personally, I do think it's because of how long I've stayed on Sub. It's obviously easier to get off Sub after two weeks versus five months, so why would it not be harder after five years versus two? Our bodies get used to being given something, no matter what it is. I've been covering up my receptors since 2005, and now they are throwing a tantrum.

I do not have any medical theory supporting this, however, I do believe strongly from my experience and what others are telling me that the longer you are on it the harder to come off. Now that's not to say someone may be on it for 10 years and have no issues coming off, b/c I really have no idea if there's any proof to this. I just feel like it's got to have some sort of impact on coming off. That being said however maybe you can give yourself a little bit of a break for not coming off as quick as you want. I know I'm not one to talk b/c once I had it in my head to jump I couldn't get rid of it. It was this irritating thing that was in my thoughts constantly and no matter how hard I tried I couldn't shake it. But I know that you are struggeling and feeling bad for it, but I personally think being on it for 5 years, and then managing to taper to 1mg is a pretty damn good job!! You really are getting there, it's just going to be a little bit of this and that until it finally happens. You seem to have all the tools in place, mentally and with comfort meds, so it's really just going to be a waiting game I think. Ofcourse I really don't know Ladder, but I'm just really pulling for you girl! I know you want it really bad, and so I'm hoping for you as well. I just want you to be proud of yourself for as far as you have come already! AND you have done it thus far without the help of clonodine, this was all you girl! I wish there was a way to tell how long it will last, but it's such a different thing for each person...it's almost unread to me how differently it effects us all. I will help in anyway I can in offering support, so please know that I'm pulling for you!!

big hugs to you!! It will happen for you, it really will!!

:)


laddertipper

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 Post subject: diet?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:23 pm 
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Hi Ladder!

I have been following your progress on this thread......just wanted to know there is someone out here thinking about you and praying for you. It sucks you are going through this. I am still on sub, have never tapered but I had a thought....

I wanted to ask about your diet. Are you a healthy eater? I only ask because I am finding out how much better I feel if I stay off sweets. I stopped eating junk food about a week ago and feel so much better. Less tired, less axnous, just better. I wonder if this would help you? It sounds like such a damn cliche but for me it has worked.

Take care, love, orangedoll.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:11 pm 
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Sending good thoughts to you today, and hoping you are feeling great, and the sick stomach has eased!!

Have a great weekend!!

Hugs!

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We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned,
so as to have the life that is waiting for us.
The old skin has to be shed before the new one can come.
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 Post subject: Just checking on you!
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 12:00 pm 
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Hi ladder....just wanted to check in on you this morning and see how you were! After seeing so many doing the jump last week, I kind of felt like you and I were the only ones left on the "taper train" LOL!
I have a feeling we'll have new ones coming on board soon....maybe then I'll feel like an old-timer around here :)

How are you dosing now? Have you dropped anymore? I am at 10 mgs/day now...HAD to drop 2 mgs when I switched to strips....those things are so much more powerful. I am sitting here now fighting sleep and all I've had today is 6 mgs this morning. I haven't fought being drowsy like this in a while. I would go back to tablets except that the strips are so much easier to taper from as you can cut them. It was a mess trying to divide those tablets.

Let me know how you're doing...I continue to pray for you and all of us trying to discontinue Subs. We will make it...slowly but surely :)


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 12:12 pm 
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I don't understand why you would rather puke than deal with minor w/d symptoms, when i tapered off methadone i couldn't move off the sofa for about 2 months straight unless I had to but i kept the taper going, i simply slowed it down. For example if you are stuck at 1mg then the next day take 0.99 mg, any difference you would feel from that is psychological. 2 days later cut down to 0.98 My rule of thumb was nothing mattered as long as I didn't go backwards. By taking a medication that is making you puke do you realize that you are throwing up nutrients that your body needs to repair itself? I know how things can be after awhile but if you are tapering off this that means that you should be ready to stop revolving your life around a pill. Stick to the plan and tapering won't kill you even if you feel crappy. Just think about people who have severe illnesses in other countries that have no access to medicine. They don't have any "failsafe" to suddenly feel better if they get tired of being sick.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 12:30 pm 
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frank, I kinda see what you mean....at least I think I do. I'm wondering, though, if you think I should keep going down right now, even before I feel normal at 1 mg. Do you think that's a good idea? Honestly, I don't know whether to stick it out here for longer and keep believing I'll adjust to it or drop further so I don't feel stuck any more. I do think we are spoiled here with meds to help us with everything. I've been told by friends from other countries that they are shocked at how many things we go to the doctor or take a pill for. I do want to get out of this mentality, which is why I wasn't sure about whether I should even start Clonidine in the first place. However, I do think it helps me sleep, and it is no longer making me sick to my stomach. I absolutely despise throwing up, as I'm sure everyone does, and I know you lose nutrients. Just as I thought, though, I needed to work my way onto it. I took a half of a .1 last night and it helped me sleep, and I slept well until time to wake up. I did wake up with the chills, as always.

Thanks Aqua and Orange and Rain for all the support. I love you guys! You are such sweet people to get on here and give encouragement to someone you've never met. It feels to me like I do know the people on here, though, and I'd love to have a big Sub Reunion party.

Orange, I'm going to pull my covers. I'm not exactly a healthy eater. I skip meals if I'm not hungry and then eat whatever I want whenever I want. I don't drink enough water. (I do take vitamins.) I pulled out my juicer, though, and I'm going to start that again. I'm getting better at not eating as much sweets. Being a recovering alcoholic, I'm horribly addicted to sugar. This cold ass winter actual compelled me, the ice cream queen, to stop eating ice cream!!! Hearing how much a healthy diet made a difference for you motivates me to put more effort into this. I also need to exercise more. WAY more!!! I'm kinda realizing that it's up to me, at this point, to either stay stuck or pull myself up by my bootstraps, drink a bunch of green veggies, and go outside for a jog. KWIM?

Thanks guys!! I may be dropping soon a little. I don't know. I don't like being stagnant, but I'm scared to drop. I'm not sure what to do. If I felt normal, I'd go ahead and go down.

laddertipper

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 Post subject: johnboy
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 1:41 pm 
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hi ladder. i went to another AA meeting last night,and thats all thay talked about
was hate,and getting drunk,saying i fucking did this and i fucking did that "sorry"
i don't swear alot but they sure helped that!! i'm still at 8 mgs.
i left the meeting upset and went home and drank 8 beers. i dont feel to great this morning
even though 8 beers was nothing to me.i no its my fault,but the meeting seem to
help me drink.i feel like i had to post this becouse if i was not on suboxone i would have
got plasterd,and drank about 25 beersand a pint of vodca !!


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 6:11 pm 
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laddertipper, i think i know what the problem may be based on previous experience....when i was tapering off methadone (a full-agonist) i kept the taper constant even when i did not feel well...the first month i barely felt anything, the second and third month were terrible and the fifth and sixth month were the most diffuclt yet i felt better and worse at the same time if that makes any sense and the only way i knew i was getting better at that point was to remember what i was like the week before....I think the reason for this is that your body is reacting to receiving the opiate...I have read on here before about people feeling better after jumping off their taper at a low milligram because during the lowest milligrams your body is pushing and pulling against the taper and the lower your dose the less the half life becomes effective....if I were you i would do something drastic, I would try to go as long as i could without any sub at all and then resume the taper from 1.25 and then begin cuttin 2% of the dose every other day....i know you're thinking "what??" but there is a method to that madness....the second choice is to drop at 1% every other day and try to improve your physical and mental condition by eating properly and perhaps taking a dopamine supplement like muciens ...i don't think i would've been able to complete my methadone taper without that....when i was on a low mg of hydrocodone and tried tapering at 20 mg a day my w/d symptoms were worse than cold turkeying....now since you are still at 1mg you would go into a severe w/d if you cold turkeyed but if you taper at 1% every other day, it will feel the same as staying at 1mg and eventually you'll feel a better crappiness at a lower mg


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 7:20 pm 
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frankp1983 wrote:
laddertipper, i think i know what the problem may be based on previous experience....when i was tapering off methadone (a full-agonist) i kept the taper constant even when i did not feel well...the first month i barely felt anything, the second and third month were terrible and the fifth and sixth month were the most diffuclt yet i felt better and worse at the same time if that makes any sense and the only way i knew i was getting better at that point was to remember what i was like the week before....I think the reason for this is that your body is reacting to receiving the opiate...I have read on here before about people feeling better after jumping off their taper at a low milligram because during the lowest milligrams your body is pushing and pulling against the taper and the lower your dose the less the half life becomes effective....if I were you i would do something drastic, I would try to go as long as i could without any sub at all and then resume the taper from 1.25 and then begin cuttin 2% of the dose every other day....i know you're thinking "what??" but there is a method to that madness....the second choice is to drop at 1% every other day and try to improve your physical and mental condition by eating properly and perhaps taking a dopamine supplement like muciens ...i don't think i would've been able to complete my methadone taper without that....when i was on a low mg of hydrocodone and tried tapering at 20 mg a day my w/d symptoms were worse than cold turkeying....now since you are still at 1mg you would go into a severe w/d if you cold turkeyed but if you taper at 1% every other day, it will feel the same as staying at 1mg and eventually you'll feel a better crappiness at a lower mg


Frank!!!! You are absolutely correct! This is what is happening. My body IS fighting me. It feels exactly that way. It is pushing and pulling against the taper. I've been thinking this for a while, but I don't always have enough confidence in what I think is going on, which is foolish. Normally, it turns out that I am right and should have gone with what I was sensing. I love what you said, because it is a moderate plan. You aren't saying to quit tapering. You're telling me my body is probably going to keep doing this until I'm off completely, right? So, I need to keep tapering, but you are also not telling me to jump completely. I think this is very, very insightful.

Here's my ONE problem. It's been nearly 50 days at 1 mg. Go back up to 1.25? Lord, that would so psych me out....what if I try going as long as I can and then take 1? I was also thinking of going to .875 tonight. I have the films, so that's just shaving of an 1/8 of a mg. What do you think?

And thank you SO much, because I suddenly feel like someone maybe understands the mechanism behind what has been happening!!!!

laddertipper

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