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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:21 pm 
I'm giving credit to HOMER for this great quote and question....

" I tottally get Dr J Js arguments that 90% of us will relapse if come off suboxone and if this is the case then i;ll stayy on it, but how do you increase your chances of getting in that 10% that make make it?" - Member name Homer (You picked a good name, the philosopher "Homer" would be proud. hahha

Seriously, no bullshit. This is the question we all should be asking one another who really want to get off these drugs. I know we do, but i saw this quote and I loved it. Lets focus on becoming that 10% and not be scared off by the majority. I'm sure Dr. Junig would chime in here and want to help us. Here i am asking, What is it that the 10 % do that we all are trying to do? I get the jist of it, eat right, exercize blah blah... but almost all of us are doing that already. Seriously, what is it that makes that small group of people "MAKE IT"??

It's like in society or pop culture. They have those shows Celebrity Rehab. An hour show that portrays messed up drunks and druggies. Throwing up and shittin themselves and acting like a nasty 8th grader to the staff. The show has the world "REHAB " in it right? Why don't they focus more on what makes REHAB's successful in some recoveries. Talk about pyscologocial issues and do's and dont's in the outside world. Intervention, another one. Instead of having 55 minutes of the show be -watching them stumble around all over there house and punching there mother in the teeth to steal her mouthwash, and the last 5 mintues explain how they went out of state to go to a rehab. I want to see the show where they bring you in the facility and genuinly help you. I want to see them teaching behavior changes and relationship ammends. Maybe the percentage of people that make it would be bigger if we all focused on this number instead of the failure rates and follow advice of people that actually came out of the "10%".

I agree Homer and I too ask, How do we increase our chances in becoming the 10% who make it?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:37 pm 
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You bring up a great point. You know what is weird? I jumped from subs a few days ago and would say your screen name... "I'm winning the epic...". Not entirely sure what YOU mean by that, but to me it was a little mantra that I would say to feel strong during the minor withdraws. I did not win the epic. I relapsed (well once so far... not sure what entitles an official relapse...). I used to watch the show Intervention to see how to get people to stop doing drugs, and it is much like what you said about celebrity rehab -- it's more about the drama and you don't ever learn much of anything from the show.

I realize why some sub docs make some patients go to counseling. I sure wish I knew the answer to your question. If I had prepared for battling using opiates again in the same way I prepared for the physical symptoms, I think I would have had a much better chance at being the 10%. As many times as I said "I'm gunna show Dr. J. that I'm not the majority", I had 0 skills as to how to actually accomplish that. After being on subs 11 months, I never worked on how I was going to fight the urges after I jumped.

I suppose this is where the *sub-free* people chime in :)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:39 am 
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Well, whatever it is that the "10%" who manage to stay off opiates do that makes them succeed, I doubt it has much to do with reality television.

I guess the first thing that comes to mind is the fact that there are a certain amount of people who will "spontaneously recover" from addiction. These are the people who get clean and stay clean kind of regardless of treatment. They wake up one day and are sick of the shit so they quit, or they have a near-death experience, or they hit bottom, or they just "grow out of it." I know a lot of people like this and I do not understand them at all. They just quit and stay quit and don't really seem to think about it much.

Then there's the rest of us. I don't think there is any magic bullet or secret recipe to staying quit or to staying in recovery. The most important thing is that you have to just do something and you have to stick with it. If you slip, then get back up on the wagon as quickly as you can so that you don't totally lapse back into addiction.

You have to do a lot of work on your own head. You have to come to an understanding that the way you've been relating to the world, to yourself and your life is messed up. You have to learn new ways to deal with shit without getting high...or seeking another unhealthy means of escape. You have to learn how to face up to stuff. How you learn all these things is going to be different for different people. And probably even different for yourself at different times in your life.

Cultivating some kind of discipline in you life is a good idea. For me it's meditation practice, which is a daily thing. For someone else it might be working out, or a practice of rigorous honesty with a sponsor or taking up a martial art...whatever it is, you have to show up and do it even when you don't really feel like it (that's the discipline part).

Getting with a good addiction counselor, especially early in recovery is a good idea. Learning some CBT techniques for dealing with cravings and negative thought patterns is also good (check out SMART recovery for free resources). If you are still with a spouse or partner who survived your addiction with you, getting counseling together might be good as well.

Addressing any underlying physical or mental health issues is important. As is taking good care of your physical and mental health on an ongoing basis.

Make new friends who are either in recovery or just aren't addicts. Most of my recovery-centric interaction comes from this forum - in the rest of my life I hang out with people who just aren't and never were drug abusers. Their way of dealing with things, sense of healthy boundaries, and ability to enjoy life without chemicals has fortunately rubbed off on me. Get new hobbies - especially if drugs were your major source of relaxation and recreation. You need to get some enjoyment out of life or you'll be tempted to go back to drugs. Try new things and keep trying till you find what works.

For me, having goals that I'm trying to reach in my life has been important over the past 5 years. I finished my Associates Degree and started another certificate program, I set goals for learning new things at work, and I have personal goals that I'm trying to accomplish. I can't stand the feeling of stagnating in my life and having a concrete thing to work toward and a way of measuring my progress helps me avoid that feeling. Goals don't have to be huge either to have a big impact on your life. You'd be suprised at what changes a goal like volunteering your time somewhere twice a month or taking a walk with your kid after dinner once a week might bring about in your life.

There is also some research that shows that environment is a HUGE factor in relapse. So I guess if you have the means to totally relocate your life to some place that you've never lived before, that could help. But if you can't do that, you can do things like deleting all your drug contacts out of your phone, cutting off friends that still use and/or don't support your recovery, drive a different way to work if the old, familiar route sets off cravings and whatever else you can think of to avoid or neutralize triggers.

Read up on neuroscience and brain plasticity, read up on addiction medicine and new treatments. There's fascinating new research being done about how we acquire habits and how we can change them. Read the stories of people who have overcome addictions and see what they did to get where they are. Read things that are inspiring to you personally. Do whatever you can to cultivate a positive attitude.

And always remember that this is a process. Change is a process, and a recursive process at that, which means that at times you will regress or backslide or revisit some earlier stage in the process AND THAT IS OK. Just keep moving, keep trying, evaluate what you're doing and adjust.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:59 am 
DOAQ's Quote- "Well, whatever it is that the "10%" who manage to stay off opiates do that makes them succeed, I doubt it has much to do with reality television"

That really wasnt what i meant by the whole post. I must have been misunderstood again or made to look incompitent. Anyway ill say it again. Society as well as pop culture like to portray the failures, the 90%. My message was simply stating, lets all concentrate on how to become the 10% Place all our focus on that. And the Media is a HUGE tool in our nation. Why not show tv shows with positive messages. Not showing the disasters, they show the problems, what about the solutions?? That is what i MEANT.


I'd like everyone to check out this post of mine, (everyone that has related to me at one point or has kinda dug what i've been saying for the last 4-5 months) http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=57166#57166 Its very important, honestly, a matter of life and death or life and a shitty life of addiction 4ever. I need an important website one of you may know to help me. Well, hope i get some good responds and hope to see who has cared.... I left my email when i leave for soome of you who would like to know my progess being off sub or whatever the case may be.

http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=57166#57166


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:00 pm 
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Jesus Christ, winningduhepic, IT WAS A JOKE.

Maybe you couldn't tell that I was taking your question seriously by the other ten paragraphs I wrote in response to it, but I was in fact trying to be sincere and tell you what I'd found to work for me in my recovery.

I'm starting to think that you just want to be negative and contrary for the purpose of stirring up drama on the forum. If that's what you want to do, take it to the Freestyle section please.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:02 pm 
well then i appologize DOAQ. I read that first part and just figured someone/moderator wanted to twist my balls again, so i didnt even bother with the rest of it. I went over and read your post. I appologize.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:54 pm 
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I'm glad you went back and read DoaQ's post because she just laid some serious knowledge on you with that post of hers. I've followed many of the principles that DoaQ has laid out and it has made a huge difference in my recovery.

This next part may seem harsh, it's not intended to be, but sometimes we addicts need a good swift kick in the butt (I know I've needed several over the course of my recovery). Winning, you seem to have had issues with people on this forum from the get go and it seems you still have issues with people here......at some point in time, you have to stop looking outward for the problem and start looking inward for the problem. I hope you don't take this paragraph as an insult, it's not what it's meant to be at all. If I didn't care about you at all, I wouldn't even be making this post. Fact is, you seem like you're in a bad head space. It's not uncommon for an addict new to recovery to be in a bad head space. If you wanted my opinion, I'd say that your dislike for Suboxone, which was your drug of choice, is not good for you right now. You have to find a way to let that anger go or it'll consume you and you'll then end up a slave to anger.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:24 pm 
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You know people reflect a need, to be here, and Winnigduepic I can relate to the image of how amazingly fucked the world is atm, but mate, the soulution is with-in you. No one can give you the peace, unless you calm your own inner water.
You've made it this far, and your a mile ahead of me, but it's a journey not a race. Yeah these are strange days, but focusing on them with out taking postive action for your own personal well being, may cause more harm than good.
If you focus on thought patterns that warm and comfort you, those thoughts will manifest, just like the negative ones do.
Arcturus is a star that indian tribe folk use to talk to when they needed help, so I suppose some sort of prayer may help regardless of what you believe.
Cheers


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:24 am 
Hey Romeo- Yeah, it may seem easy to agree with 100% of what you said about me , if you werent me. I'm just a normal guy on here that did some stuff where people thought, I WOULD NEVER USE HEROIN TO GET OFF SUBOXONE, that is so crazy im going to give that guy shit and it aitn gonna stop. And honeslty dude, it hastn stopped. My mailbox is mostly borderline hateful remarks. So, im not gonna say anything to you about it, cuz you are not sitting at my computer. Everyone has seen i have tried to help people here. Really, i have. but whatever this is has gone on long enough for me. Not only the heroin thing people hold against me, still... me acting like someone with no freinds making another account to say weird stuff solely to make myself laugh. I get that thrown at me alot mostly in my message box, but whenever someone disagrees with me in a post, they throw it out when they can. Im not sayin its me against the world here bro, just saying they know who to pick on and how to do it so they dont look like the "bad guy" I'm not stupid, i know im not liked very much at all here. The moderators are not on my side, we all know this. Look, im not mad , im not happy.... its just htat as a whole this website brings me down. And im not even talking about the majority of members here. They Rock, but a few people have there own insecurities and attack me. It has happened, period. Anyway, i love lots on here and i am still willing to help ANYONE who wants my advice. That is why i am putting up my personal email PSUPTM@YAHOO.COM I think i can help many because its been 5 months off suboxone with that slipp up 2 weeks ago but other than that, I KNOW i will make it. I'm secure in myself and even more imortantly where i am going. I'm done with petty arguing... Hey i dont like arguing back either. definately dotn get a rise out of it. otherwise i'd stay. because there is always someone that would like to disagree with winningduhepic and make it look bigger than it is.

ALSO, Mods... i dotn know how but can you please terminate my account? Thanks. I just made Hatmakers day, hahaha jk. well maybe. another note- I have ALWAYS expressed HELP on here when i knew i had good advice to share, even to people who so called bullied me in the beggining. Ever since my first post, GETTIN OFF SUBOXONE WITH HEROIN. still gave my most honest and sincere words to those folks. So , no Romeo. i havent been starting trouble with people from the beggining. I didnt help it, i could've stopped after people said i was a failure, a crazy moron. blah blah blah. Im done with it all here, but not done at all with helping anyone who would like it from me. Check in to see my progress or email if u think about using, i will try my best to talk you down, you're too important to let it all go , again


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:28 am 
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Chances are you will relapse again. There aren't many suboxone users who have come off suboxone or stayed clean from suboxone. Its not always the fault of the addict, this time its the medication which is the problem. Something which cuts away at your brain and leaves those receptors empty is bound to tip anybody off the edge, its natural to want to fill those receptors, just like natural to eat food to stay alive. I know this is not what people want to read or believe but it has some big truth to it. When people come out with comments such as "methadone is less of the 2 drugs" or I never had PAWS for this long and got off other opiates before" it does make you think deeply that something is seriously not right about suboxone or subutex for that matter.

The 10% who make it is more or less referred to the people who took doses between 0.2 and 1mg for 3 weeks.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:19 am 
EXACTLY, This is not what i want to surround my self around. comments like HESSLERS over here. I CAN FIGHT THIS, just like i have been for almost half a year. Ur just bitter you couldnt do what eeryone who gets off subs is doing.

do you actually think your doing any good here? Mr dr. said suboxone is like every other opiate, it just takes longer, a lot longer to get ou tof ur system. Anyone trying to recover off this horrible detox can not be reading b/s like that HESSLER. this is half the reason i need OFF. they say surround yourself in positive thinking and in people who will HELP you, not shit like hessler is saying . MYGOD Anyone else think that is unessisary for the recoverer's ear????


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:58 am 
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I'll respectfully disagree with Hessler. I've been on methadone, Suboxone and naltrexone... I have also done 12-step meetings, SMART meetings and even religion. Each have their own set of pro's and con's. IMO none is better or worse than the other. Hessler seems to have an unhealthy belief that Suboxone is somehow much worse than every other drug out there. Suboxone is just an opioid. It just happens to have some qualities that makes it useful in the treatment of addiction - namely its long half life and ceiling effect. These benefits also lend to its downside. Protracted half-life always ends up in protracted withdrawal.

I've detoxed off buprenorphine and methadone multiple times, and I'd still prefer to come off buprenorphine. The only benefit methadone withdrawal may have over Sub is that it's more predictable. Even if its withdrawal is nastier, at least jumping off it I'd know what to expect.

As for being the 10%. The figures are probably closer to 6%. And you know what the most interesting thing is? It doesn't seem to matter what method of recovery one chooses, that "abstinence" rate seems to always be around 6%.

ie a person who tries to quit opioids without using any kinda rehab program or medication ... about 6-10%. a person who goes on drug-replacement (a la methadone / Suboxone) then gets off it? Around 6-10%. People who go to rehab? Long term abstinence = 6-10%. People who go to NA/AA? 6-10%. What this goes to show is that the program a person's using or method they're using for assistance really means fuck all compared to who that person is, and what qualities they have.

Those figures may look grim, but it's also important to look at it this way. This is basic probability. I know it's hard to apply when we're talking about human being, and things are a lot more complex. But it still makes a point that persistence is really critical in this game.

Chances of relapse:

1st try - 94%
2nd try - 88%
3rd try - 83%
4th try - 78%
5th try - 73%
6th try - 68%
7th try - 64%
8th try - 60%
9th try - 57%

etc. Basically what I'm sayin is that a person should never give up on trying to get off opioids. Not only statistically does a person have a better chance each try, but each try a person learns something new, something important to avoid. However if a person doesn't learn from their mistakes, and doesn't grow and learn as a person and apply those lessons to their recovery, their chances at staying clean will remain pretty low no matter how much they try.

Now here's where things like Suboxone and methadone can really help. These drugs allow a person to develop and better themselves so they can grow-out of the behaviours that lead to relapse whilst having a safety net.

Another thing that's really important about these stats is that stats are about OTHER PEOPLE. They don't represent one person's chances of staying clean. They represent how many people in a sample of the population stay clean. These are NOT you. These "studies" have no idea the kinda person you are, what kinda qualities you have, whether you have the characteristics and features of a person who's ready to stay clean long term. These studies are about OTHER PEOPLE.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:14 pm 
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TJ - ^^That is a great post. Thanks for some food for thought. I have always wondered whether your chances of staying off opiates increase with each attempt. I know that holds true for quitting smoking, so it does make sense.

Hessler I moved your post to the Freestyle section of the board. I've PM'd you before about stating opinion as fact and posting misinformation about Suboxone here and now I'm telling you, for the third time, to please stop. If you continue to just make stuff up and present it as factual information, I will deactivate your account.

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