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 Post subject: Time frames
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:57 pm 
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Having read personal posts re suboxone cessation on numerous forums, I'm thoroughly uncertain.
Would appreciate any reactions on the INTENSITY of my withdrawal and an unofficial guess as to how it's going. I know I'm asking a lot for non medical persons but many of you have done this

15 months on suboxone, with dosing of 2mg daily for past three months. Got as low as 1mg daily for last 4-5 days. Last dose was 6 days ago.
By day 3-4 I was fatigued and generally too weak to do much. No appetitie and the restless leg syndrome at nighttime, with poor sleep.

Spoke to my doc (I'm a doc too, but this not my speciality) and got a 30tab supply of 10mg hydrocodone Take every 6 hrs and try to taper down. I started yesterday. I'm now functioning pretty good and taking one every 6-7 hrs. I will attempt to lengthen the duration.

So what I'm asking is whether any of you think because I'm responding well to just one tab every six hours, might the sub withdrawal ease quicker (beginning exercise regimen today).

Thanks for any thoughts. Some of the replies I see use adjectives like "hell" "evil" "dying" to describe personal experiences. I'm trying not to frame my thoughts that way but it's tough!!! Appreciate your help mates


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 Post subject: Re: Time frames
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:13 pm 
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I have used to hydrocodone during tapering for a small break when tapering off suboxone and felt it helped. I am on a butrans 10mcg buprenorphine patch for the last of my taper before I jump off in about a week. I only caution to use the norco sparingly as I felt the pull to use more when on the low dose bupe, as I felt the hydro. Good luck on getting off the suboxone.


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 Post subject: Re: Time frames
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:30 pm 
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I tapered down to .15 mg/day of Subs, and the detox has been pretty easy. On day 7 now, no symptoms like you describe except for fatigue on day 1 and 2.

It can be hard using an opiate to wean yourself off an opiate.

Good luck.

-- ji

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 Post subject: Re: Time frames
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:50 pm 
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Richie1027 wrote:
Having read personal posts re suboxone cessation on numerous forums, I'm thoroughly uncertain.
Would appreciate any reactions on the INTENSITY of my withdrawal and an unofficial guess as to how it's going. I know I'm asking a lot for non medical persons but many of you have done this

15 months on suboxone, with dosing of 2mg daily for past three months. Got as low as 1mg daily for last 4-5 days. Last dose was 6 days ago.
By day 3-4 I was fatigued and generally too weak to do much. No appetitie and the restless leg syndrome at nighttime, with poor sleep.

Spoke to my doc (I'm a doc too, but this not my speciality) and got a 30tab supply of 10mg hydrocodone Take every 6 hrs and try to taper down. I started yesterday. I'm now functioning pretty good and taking one every 6-7 hrs. I will attempt to lengthen the duration.

So what I'm asking is whether any of you think because I'm responding well to just one tab every six hours, might the sub withdrawal ease quicker (beginning exercise regimen today).

Thanks for any thoughts. Some of the replies I see use adjectives like "hell" "evil" "dying" to describe personal experiences. I'm trying not to frame my thoughts that way but it's tough!!! Appreciate your help mates

Hello Doc Richie!
Like JI, I also recently tapered slowly (from 12mgs) and "jumped" (from .375mgs) 8 days ago. I feel really well today, worst for me was day 2, then improved from there. IMO, taking hydrocodone is prolonging withdrawals, not helping. You can check out my thread if you like. You will not find the adjectives "hell", "evil" or "dying" anywhere I believe.....and I like adjectives!! I'm a teacher!
Good luck! Keep posting! :D
BF

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 Post subject: Re: Time frames
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:48 pm 
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The reason you're functioning pretty good while on Hydro's is because you basically halted your opiate wd with an opiate.

It looks like you were on 2mg of Suboxone for 3 months and did 1mg for 4-5 days. Quitting Suboxone from a dose like that usually results in wd, but not anything too severe. We have a member here who quit from a similar dose (I think) and her name is Trainer. Look for her thread, she documents her progress in great detail.....and she's funny as hell, too!!

Here's her thread and she did jump from 2mg.

topic10439.html

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 Post subject: Re: Time frames
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:26 pm 
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Thanks to all for your replies and insights....appreciated. As for using an opiate to detox from opiate....I see the illogic in doing so...likely prolonging. In light of others experience with detox from this dose, and understand That I just began the hydro yesterday, going to begin quicker taper and just deal with the discomfort.

Hope my post wasn't misleading. I began subs with 16 mg daily for about 8 months then tapered to 2mg daily til my 1 mg for several days before jump. Now see where a longer sub taper might've been wise.... And had I known of this site.... Shoulda, coulda, woulda....

I also understand there's many factors involved in post acute withdrawal, including the preexisting drug and alcohol history. I'm 61..... Alcohol free for 15 months and in 12 step program. I don't, however, disclose my suboxone use. The subs actually helped me stop and many year addiction to alcohol and opiates.

Shared more than I expected, but the anonymity encouraged a bit more sharing. Wish you all well and will let you know how it goes. I'll also check out the threads recommended
Rich


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 Post subject: Re: Time frames
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:43 pm 
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Congratulations on being alcohol free for 15 months!!!

We've had several alcoholics on this board over the years and most all of them have commented on how Suboxone helped curb their desire for alcohol. When I first got in with my addiction counselor, he told me how the alcoholics body metablizes alcohol into some kind of quasi opiate. Apparently this only happens in alcoholics? Anyway, I can see why Suboxone helps alcoholics as well as opiate addicts.

Is there any way you can get back on Suboxone and taper a little while longer? You can certainly survive the wd from what will basically be a 2mg jump, but you would minimize the wd intensity and duration if you could taper lower.

On the thread I recommended to you, I'm pretty sure Trainer lists out supplements she used to aid in her wd, but in case not, Clonidine is about the gold standard for easing opiate wd. Clonidine is a blood pressure medication that's prescribed off label for opiate wd. Most all who have used it agree it knocks wd symptoms down a good peg or two. Clonidine is non-habit forming and has no wd associated with it, but you may get some rebound BP.

Neurontin (gabapentin) is another med that helps a lot of people while in wd. Neurontin, if taken long enough, can produce its own wd. If only taken short term for an opiate detox, it's usually a good med and you won't have wd from it.

Other things we usually recommend while in wd is music, exercise, sex, getting out of the house, hot showers or baths, sauna's.....anything that fires up your endorphins will make wd so much more tolerable. Hot showers or baths are probably the easiest and many on here have resorted to hot showers 4, 5 or 6 times a day.

Good luck and keep posting!!

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 Post subject: Re: Time frames
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:55 pm 
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Hey there. I've been on subs since 2-2013 after a pretty bad 5 month heroin relapse. I was a day in day out addict for the most part from 1999-2011 with a 2 yr break in the middle to try methadone for treatment. I was on 320 mg daily so you can guess how well that went. Anyhow, in the last 16 months I went from 16 mg/day suboxone to 8 and stayed there for about a year. In April I lost my job and no longer have insurance and even though public aid will cover it, It would be 20+ days before I could get a scrip again. As a result, I had to do a really quick taper from 8 to 6 then 4. In the last week I went to 2 mg then 2 mg every other day for 2 days. Took last dose over 36 hours ago and so far not feeling too bad. I figure nothing can compare to methadone withdrawal. I'd rather be dope sick for a month straight than ever have to experience that again. 4 months of withdrawal when the post acute was factored in. Anyhow, I haven't thought about scoring but did get a hold of a very small amount of norcos in case I start to feel horrible. I'm wondering if at 36-72 hr range after last dose will norcos work to ease symptoms and avoid any kind of "high"? I know it takes a while for the molecular make up of suboxone medication to stop clinging to receptors. Just curious what you've experienced so far. I've worked a program and am very familiar that my approach clashes with that ideology. Just a heads up to any one inclined to drop their opinion. I'm looking for medical advice based on the chemistry of these 2 medications. How comparable would the withdrawal of 14 regular norcos over a week be versus 16 months of suboxone? Or am I just putting myself in a deeper hole physiologically? Thanks for any helpful advice.


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 Post subject: Re: Time frames
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:49 am 
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Hello. Let me report subjectively on my status. Last dose do sub 8 days ago. Went 3.5 days as w/d intensified....
Beginning Wednesday evening (4 days ago). I've taken a 10mg hydro Q8 hours. My plan this week is to taper down. I'm still experiencing withdrawal beyond the 3-4 hr effectiveness of the hydros, but I am NOT getting high at all.....it merely subsides w/d and allows me to function.

I cut back coffee
Eat and hydrate well
I ride a recumbent bike daily for about 30 min

Hoping this works and I expect to have withdrawal' just trying to extend the taper with a shorter actng narcotic.
Will report back this week


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 Post subject: Re: Time frames
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:13 pm 
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Thanks for keeping us up to date, Richie!!

Stay strong, bro.

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 Post subject: Re: Time frames
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:24 am 
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Hi I am kind of in the same situation... was on Subs for a little over a month.... went off and got a script for Hydro 10. Im taking 40 mg of Hydro a day after coming off at 3mg of subs... I had to stop the subs due to side effects....at any rate im still having wd from the subs even with the hydro.... i had terrible sweats for 5 days and cant be too far from the bathroom. Im anxious and depressed as well... i really couldnt imagine going ct. I have to take care of my kids and need to be somewhat functional. Im thinking about the same 11 or so days at 40 mg than ill drop down . I hope to be free of this hell by the end of summer. Im a teacher and my habit is a secret... my husband knows but doesnt really talk about it...he doesnt know what to say. I see a psych but i think even he is doesnt know what to do with me sometimes. lol Anyway, just wanted you to know that im kind of in the same boat as you.


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 Post subject: Re: Time frames
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:16 pm 
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I can relate to the "secret"part. Not having someone to talk to is not fun. I'm in AA but I never shared that I was on subs. I functioned well for so long. I am using what I learned in AA to help with this.

The hydro I'm taking, 10mg as well 3 times daily, sowes not eliminate withdrawal, NOR DO WE WANT IT TO, I know if have to experience some discomfort, and much of mine is mental. Obsessional thinking, anxiety. Little chores seem monumental.

I keep tellingly self, it's TIME LIMITED. It will end. I'm forcing,myself to exercise. Eat as well as you can.

I find some comfort knowing you all are out there. It's now day 9. Gotta begin cutting back on hydros this week.
Thanks everyone who posts here.
Rich


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 Post subject: Re: Time frames
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:47 pm 
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Good luck Rich... I wish you much success... I PMed you, hope you dont mind. Just a couple questions since you seem to be a few days ahead of me.


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 Post subject: Re: Time frames
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:21 pm 
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Hi everyone. My absence from the forum hasn't meant I haven't thought about you all.
As you recall, I wanted to attempt detoxing from suboxone using hydrocodone. My thought was both substituting the long acting sub witha shorter acting opiate, while continuing taper.

Today is day 16 without subs. I began the taper for 7 days with 3 10mg hydros. For the first 7 days I kept dosing close to7 hrs apart (long at night when/if I slept).

I also used unison OTC sleeping pill (not Benadryl ) about 4 times. It def increased RLS so I've only used it 4 nights, scattered.
I'm now down to 5mg Q 8 hrs. There are times when I go longer and yes, there phase been tempting times to take MORE. I credit my AA involvement and reliance on a higher power. Trust me, I wasn't always religious or spiritual, but my sober time brought mr around.

I'm not delusional that I can quit and stay off drugs without lifelong help, I may be a Dr., but I'm a drunk and addict. What I'm doing is risky but I'm now doing with support. I hope to be off everything by this weekend. What withdrawal do I experience ?
Occasional sneezing .... I actually enjoy this!
Mood fluctuations.... I just try to stay active knowing dopamine/serotonin production WILl resume
Low energy- little or no caffeine. Dringkg power aides, V8 juice (a lot of low sodium).

My worst symptoms are the mood changes. It keeps me from doing what I love (I'm a musician now...retired). My preoccupation with somatic issues and time passing preclude my involvement in normal daily activities. However, I make myself do meetings, family events, etc. Everyday gets a bit better.

Enough about me. What a self centered disease this is. I genuinely wish all of you continued abstinence and ability to live without this drug.


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 Post subject: Re: Time frames
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:31 am 
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Richie1027 wrote:
Hi everyone. My absence from the forum hasn't meant I haven't thought about you all.
As you recall, I wanted to attempt detoxing from suboxone using hydrocodone. My thought was both substituting the long acting sub witha shorter acting opiate, while continuing taper.

Today is day 16 without subs. I began the taper for 7 days with 3 10mg hydros. For the first 7 days I kept dosing close to7 hrs apart (long at night when/if I slept).

I also used unison OTC sleeping pill (not Benadryl ) about 4 times. It def increased RLS so I've only used it 4 nights, scattered.
I'm now down to 5mg Q 8 hrs. There are times when I go longer and yes, there phase been tempting times to take MORE. I credit my AA involvement and reliance on a higher power. Trust me, I wasn't always religious or spiritual, but my sober time brought mr around.

I'm not delusional that I can quit and stay off drugs without lifelong help, I may be a Dr., but I'm a drunk and addict. What I'm doing is risky but I'm now doing with support. I hope to be off everything by this weekend. What withdrawal do I experience ?
Occasional sneezing .... I actually enjoy this!
Mood fluctuations.... I just try to stay active knowing dopamine/serotonin production WILl resume
Low energy- little or no caffeine. Dringkg power aides, V8 juice (a lot of low sodium).

My worst symptoms are the mood changes. It keeps me from doing what I love (I'm a musician now...retired). My preoccupation with somatic issues and time passing preclude my involvement in normal daily activities. However, I make myself do meetings, family events, etc. Everyday gets a bit better.

Enough about me. What a self centered disease this is. I genuinely wish all of you continued abstinence and ability to live without this drug.


Hey Doc, thanks for the update!

Sounds like you are on the right track and I'm happy everyday is getting a bit better for you.

There are 2 kinds of Unisom btw, one helps, one makes RLS way worse, so make sure if you use it you have the one with Doxylamine Succinate. I learned the hard way.

So, you are a musician! IMO this is something you either "are" or "arent" and not something you can ever "retire" from, although I know what you mean, I used to be a professional singer - meaning that was my only job - and now am a teacher, but the "musician' in me will always be there. It is a gift we are born with.
For me, I find it is helping me heal to listen to music I love, play the piano, guitar, sing and dance as much as I can throughout the day. It is helping me find joy, and "re connect" with myself. So I hope you also un-retire the musician in you and use it to help you heal. You don't need to "entertain" any one else...in fact I found far less joy in doing that than in just making music for 'me' and my Creator who I believe also gets joy when His children make music. Why else can we do it?? What is music anyway? Who can truly define it? It is "creating" something from nothing, those cathartic, healing sounds we make.
Yes, recovery can be a selfish process, but also a "self-less" one. Sharing helps both parties, so please keep posting. And anyone who is "sick and healing" deserves to focus on themselves during the process, right? When you are stronger, I'm sure you'll get more out of yourself, but first things first. Don't be so hard on yourself. :)
BF

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